Weekend funny: small church pastor preaches as thousands across the Southern Baptist Convention listen

Times exist when I take myself much too seriously. It happens less now than when I was younger but it still happens nonetheless. Paul's words come to me as an inspired reminder: "I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment" (Romans 12:3 ESV).

Perhaps strict Calvinist, J. D. Hall, might want to join me in remembering the Apostle's humbling words:

Hall's full sermon may be found here.

 

UPDATE #1: Piratechristian radio logged on and safely upped the numbers of J.D. Hall's listeners to 10s of thousands of Southern Baptists! Sweet Georgia peaches.  We poor, ignorant guys in West Georgia just do not know who Southern Baptists' actual influencers really are.

UPDATE #2: Piratechristian could not leave well enough alone. Instead he logged on yet again and upped the number of Southern Baptist listeners to hundreds of thousands!  And just what was the "objective evidence" he provided? His subjective opinion, of course. He cited no sources, no data, no ratings. Just stated an unproved assertion. Unfortunately for him, we just don't accept bald assertions on this site. We insist on more to warrant claims, especially claims which appear questionable such as Hall's sermon definitively had hundreds of thousands of Southern Baptist listeners (200,000 Southern Baptists to be exact).

UPDATE #3: J.D. Hall responded to this little piece on his site. And, know I am perfectly content for interested readers to judge for themselves whether Hall poured you a full glass based on what's been actually said here. By the way, on Hall's thread, two more people claimed they listened to his sermon. Adding them to the three or four here, and the numbers are almost as impressive as the numbers signing up for ObamaCare.

UPDATE #4: Hall now has a quote on his response to this piece by Brannon Howse. I invite readers to take a look to see if Howse offered anything in his comments to overturn what I argued in the thread below; namely, that neither Hall nor Pirate Radio offers any form of substantial evidence to conclude as do they that Hall's sermon had "thousands of Southern Baptist listeners." Howse logs on only rehearsing all the numbers he has for his Worldview Weekend, etc. Fine. How many of those are Southern Baptists and how does he know they listened to Hall's sermon?  For heaven's sake. This is not hard to understand. If one can't offer any tangible proof for the numbers one claims, it seems to me we have not only a right but a duty--at least in some cases--to raise the question concerning the legitimacy of the number.

In addition, Howse goes on to comment on what could only be some type of hearsay as to what I actually questioned on this thread. Why do I say this? Well, he suggests that "some blogger" (presumably that's me) was "claiming that Jordon’s message could not have been heard by many Southern Baptists." Uh?  Why would I do that? And how could I prove it if I actually had claimed something so crass? This is the level of interaction that is all too common in Baptist blogdom. Anyways, I've writtten a short note to Howse concerning his obvious botching of what's been stated here but he has not returned the email as of the writing of this update.

Comments

[JD Hall]

Thank you, Peter, for linking this message. I hope many more will hear it, like thousands already have. I pray it's convicting and that God's Spirit might use it to move us away from this Modern Day Downgrade.

[Ben Stibbs]

Sir, I fail to understand the point you are driving at. Maybe I'm not not noticing what you are. Could you help me to understand this?

Thank you.

[BIll C]

What's funny is your words you use against Mr. Hall condemn yourself, sir, since you are a small church pastor that blogs to thousands.

just duh Pete

[Mistrepresident]

First, how is it prideful to acknowledge the number of listeners expected for a week? Is that not a miracle from God that a small church could have that many listeners? Is that not worthy of praising God? Secondly, what good can it do to spread dissension of another believer among the believing community? If you have an issue with a pastor, communicate it with him to better his service instead of spreading gossip about a man preaching the Word of God. The purpose of this post is not for the betterment of the Gospel, it is slander.

"Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind."
1 Peter 2:1

"Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"
James 4:11-13

[Ben Stibbs]

1. Is addressing sin a sin sir? Where is the error in that?

2. Have you consulted this pastor to confirm that Pr. Hall didn't communicate with him?

I thank you for your previous response and look forward to your future responses.

[Bill Bowen]

Within a couple of weeks this message was played to thousands on Pirate Christian radio.Thank you Chris Rosebough.

[Sean]

This sermon was played on Brannon Howse's Weekend Worldview, in its entirety, to thousands.

[Daniel Stevenson]

Once again, a wonderful example of God using those who mean evil to glorify himself. Thankyou for posting the link so that many others may be reached by it as well. Soli Deo gloria.

Also, seems like you are under the impression that this was preached to a small backwoods congregation by some small time country preacher who is too big for his brithches....hence your scathing/mocking tone. But was preached at the 2013 Refmont Conference where James White, Phil Johnson, and Chris Rosebrough were also speaking. Then the message was later played by Pirate Christian Radion as stated above. So yes, yes it was heard by thousands. So either you got your facts wrong, or you are purposely setting out to slander.

[D.M .]

Who is glorified by this stuff? Just askin'?

[peter lumpkins]

Well, well. I sit back and watch JD and his posse log on and demonstrate nicely why so many cannot seem to get along with this brand of "Reformed" cowboys. While it's bad enough not to be able to laugh at one's self, the worse part is, the thread shows just how morally upside down some of the thinking is.

A) JD apparently thinks I put this up to attack him and it back-fired, so to speak, because I linked to his sermon and it just made it more popular! He even thanked me on Twitter. Well, I linked to the sermon because that's what I do; I properly source those things about which I make claims. Even more, I'm not at all afraid someone will listen to JD's sermon or visit JD's site. If my hunch is correct, and they're thinking people, they'll learn as did I to not take JD as seriously as he seems to take himself. Then again, they may agree with JD. I say, they have my express permission to believe as they wish.

B) "Bill C" thinks I "condemned" myself because I too am a small church pastor who "blogs to thousands." It's hard not to laugh because a) my commentary itself was selfdeprecatory in nature. That is, I invited JD to remember and submit to the Apostle's inspired words right along with me. Evidently, "Bill C" was too enamored with making sure to "condemn" me he overlooked that I had already "condemned" myself; b) neither "Bill C" nor I can legitimately make the claim that I "blog to thousands." What a hoot! While I might average hundreds--or even perhaps thousands--of reads a day, it doesn't follow I "blog to thousands" much less "thousands" of SBs. It just isn't that easy to claim.

C) "Mistrepresident" makes me out to be a slanderer and even quotes the Bible to "prove" his (or her) point. Yes, I can see how my admitting I far too often take myself too seriously and need to be reminded by Scripture to "not think of [my]self more highly than [I] ought to think" and encourage another that perhaps he too needs to be reminded of the same Scripture makes me out as a slanderer. How stupid of me, really. Yep, "Mistrepresident" has got me, for sure.

D) "Bill Bowen" reminded us that Hall's sermon was "played to thousands" on Pirate Christian radio. Why thank you "Bill Bowen." Unfortunately, just like JD, "Bill Bowen" fallaciously presumed and without sufficient warrant pronounced a completely unknown listening audience as a demonstrated fact. JD did not know then nor does he know now that "thousands" across the SBC actually listened to his message. Good heavens. How absolutely dense are people willing to be? Nor does it remotely follow that even if Pirate Radio normally has thousands of listeners, that thousands of Southern Baptists would be among them.

Whatever happened to good old-fashioned common sense?

Marathana...

Come Lord...

[peter lumpkins]

To Shawn and Daniel:

Either produce the evidence that thousand's of Southern Baptists listened to JD's message or drop the righteous anger bit. I specifically noted JD's claim of "thousands of Southern Baptist" listeners. "Thousands of Southern Baptist" listeners is published right on the soundbite picture. Now, either demonstrate thousands of Southern Baptists listened or drop the point. Clear enough?

By the way, at my last count, neither James White, Chris R., nor P. Johnson is a Southern Baptist. Nor did I mock in any way the venue where the sermon was delivered. I too am a small church pastor and wouldn't find it entertaining to chide a small venue. So, get that straight, please.

[Piratechristian]

I just worked out the math via my traffic logs and the May 24th, 2013 episode of Fighting for the Faith, which featured Jordan's Downgrade speech has been downloaded 46,362 times. Granted, I don't know how many of them are Southern Baptists but my audience is very diverse. Also keep in mind that Brannon Howse's also featured Jordan's downgrade lecture and his audience, which does have a higher percentage of Southern Baptists than my own, is significantly larger than the audience of Fighting for the Faith.

Based upon these figures I'd say it is safe to say that Jordan Hall's Downgrade speech has been heard by 10's of thousands of Southern Baptists.

[Daniel Stevenson]

There was no righteous anger in that. I do not hate you in the very least. I just pray that you may be convicted of sin and show fruits of repentance. As to find out exactly how many people listened to it is impossible, but if you look at the various places it was published and look at the common amount of listeners they have then yes it most likely has,thats when you use logic and common sense. But to answer for sure the number, of course not, once again that is impossible. But it seems even if i were to give you the exact number and all the facts you would deny what is clear and obvious and in turn twist and distort to your advantage which you will mostly likely do with this very post. The question is what exactly are you trying to do with this? It atleast seems the sole reason is to mock. I understand that we are all human and even the best of us act on emotion, instead of the truth laid out for us in Scripture. But that never warrants us to do the same.

[peter lumpkins]

Priatechristian,

I appreciate the breakdown. I also think it's swell that Hall's sermon has been downloaded 46k+. But as you readily conceded, there's no way one can demonstrate how many of those were SBCers. Nor does it matter concerning Brannon Howse's featuring the sermon. It remains all but impossible to prove thousands of people across the SBC actually listened to Hall's sermon.

But your conclusion stands even harder to warrant and frankly kisses the absurd--"it is safe to say that Jordan Hall's Downgrade speech has been heard by 10's of thousands of Southern Baptists."

Hall pastors a church in a remote area of the US which has, what 140 SBC churches? Add to this Hall's disfellowship of the Montana Baptist Convention of churches and one can hardly think he has a lot of SBC support in the NW where he may be very well known.

More problematic Hall is not well-known among Southern Baptists elsewhere; Hall has even warped his standing with other Calvinists in the SBC because of his abrasive, insulting rhetoric. More than one has been dubbed by Hall as unregenerate (including me a number of times). I could go on but there's no real point.

Hence, Piratechristian, your "safe to say" claim of "10's of thousands of Southern Baptists" who listened to Hall stands absurd on its face I'm afraid with no way to actually demonstrate its validity.

[Kelly Young]

Sir, I am a little confused at your point. Are you just poking fun at Mr. Hall for laying claim that he has 1000's of SB listeners? If it didn't say SB would the claim be ok? Do you feel there an issue with the content of his message in it's entirety? I am not trying to attack you, I am just trying to understand. It seemed to me that Mr. Hall stated that because of contacts that he had received requesting the podcast that there would be thousands listening. Since the people made contact with him one can only assume that he would know of their SB faith. I think when he mentioned with tongue in cheek that he would be black listed from pot lucks he was showing a great sense of humor. I do not consider myself one of Mr. Hall's posse and I actually find the term a little offensive. I enjoy listening to him preach and God has used him in a mighty way. I have also told him when I disagree and he has never shown me anything but respect. For the record I am a Southern Baptist and I feel I have a great deal of common sense.

[Gene]

I am one of Pastor Halls thousands of listeners. I live over 600 miles away from him, I sat under his leadership for a brief 9 months, and have been sure to follow his messages ever since. He has always been a humble vessel of The Lord. Maybe you should be more cautious about criticizing other people publicly.

[T. R. Halvorsom]

Jordan is my friend. To you he is only an abstaction. He has a pastor's heart. His congregation grows both qualitatively and quantitatively. He is a sound and sincere man.

[Dan Staifer]

For clarity, wouldn't 2,000 count as thousands? It probably safe to assume that the largest protestant denomination, with many being tainted by Calvinism in the SBC, that at least 2,000 across the country perhaps might have listen to a message that would be like red meat to a Calvinist's ear?

Just a thought.

[peter lumpkins]

Daniel,

A) How you got "I do not hate you in the very least" from my statement about your righteous anger bit I cannot tell. What in the world do you mean?

B) Pray all you wish. Prayer is a good thing. But I can tell you I have no conviction whatsoever and thus have no reason to repent. What a West Georgia hoot! You want me to "repent" of suggesting a guy who claims 1000s of particular Christians listen to him when he cannot know that needs, along with me, to consider Scripture which cautions us to not think more highly of ourselves than we should? That's what you want me to repent of? Oh my my my...

C) Then if it is impossible to know as you claim don't pop off about knowing. And don't claim it as a fact. And when somebody challenges it, concede the point with something like--"You're correct. It was a bit of a stretch to claim 1000s for sure." Simple solution. But please don't do as Piratechristian did--up the ante to 10s of thousands! LOL

D) But you can't give me the number now can you? Nope. So, you just prejudge me as unwilling to take the evidence even if it was offered. How convenient, Daniel. I'm the bad guy no matter how the pie is sliced. It's your claim we're talking about, a claim for which you concede demonstrable evidence is impossible to produce. But yet somehow when somebody rejects the claim (that would be me), he turns out to be sinful and needs to repent because he won't accept a claim which lacks any real evidence. Okeedokee...

E) No, the sole reason is not to "mock." Part of the reason of this post is to caution us all to be careful with the claims we make, claims which look a heck of a lot bigger than our pay-grade. I included myself in the little experiment; in fact most all of us tend to "think more highly" than we ought about our own little world. It happens often with bloggers and perhaps preachers preaching. This often happens when we post a piece which has an incredible amount of reads--perhaps triple the norm. How easy to think within oneself, "well I'm finally getting more influence" or "people are finally taking me seriously" or some other grand illusion comes popping through.

Now that's reality. But you guys come here popping off, so offended that one of your own might be perceived as a bit haughty...refusing the possibility of it. Instead you die on a hill of defending the defenseless. You have no proof for the assertion. Yet I'm the one who needs to repent because I dared say, using your theological buddy as an example, let's not think more highly of ourselves than we ought to. Let's not presume. You've demonstrated the upside down intellectual treachery so often found in your community. Blackburn calls us heretics and Hall calls some of us unregenerate and you guys sit there like a toad frog on a stump. All's well; all's ok. But I question if, JD Hall, along with me at times, is far too presumptive in claiming more than evidence can show--for him, 1000s of SBCers listened to a particular sermon he preached--and you and the posse rush over here pronouncing me a sinner in need of repentance. That's the upside down world of strict internet Calvinism in far, far too many cases.

[peter lumpkins]

Hi Dan,

No it does not make sense. JD Hall may be the most provocative, cantankerous Calvinist who aligns himself with SBs. He's so cantankerous, in fact, he disffellowshipped his own state convention. Outside of a small, group of extreme Calvinists, no evidence suggests Hall is well-known among Southern Baptists...

[peter lumpkins]

Gene

Thanks. That you live 600 miles from Hall proves what? Perhaps it proves some who've known Hall in the past and moved away from him or he from them still call him friend. Great! Sadly for you it does nothing to substantiate the unwarranted claim, however, that "thousands of Southern Baptists" listened to his so-called downgrade sermon, much less the recent claim by Priatechristian that it is safe to up it to "10s of thousands"! LOL

Btw, excuse me. You write as if JD is some kind of victim here. Good heavens! Do you guys not keep up with his twitter? It is a constant drip of one insult right behind the next. Then he whines when he gets blocked. Hall a victim? What a double Georgia Hoot!

[peter lumpkins]

T.R.

Glad Hall is your friend. But he is not an abstraction to me albeit whatever in the world you may mean by that. Nor has anything written here assaulted his sincerity as I can tell.

[Kelly Young]

Sir I am from Missouri and listen to JD's sermons and am thankful for how God has used them to minister to me. Earlier I said that I was confused and I was but your last statements definitely cleared that up for me. I respectfully posed a question and I have read other posters statements and replies. I would never consider JD as haughty no would he be filled with self importance by increased numbers. He would rejoice that God's message was being heard and give all glory to God as it should be. I am just saddened that there are so many terrible things wrong in this world that it saddens me that this one sound bite has evolved into such an argument that it is drawing attention away from the message.

[julie]

Jordan is right on! Wake up!

[peter lumpkins]

Kelly,

Did JD say the words or not? Did JD make this claim? The claim was a part of the message was it not? Then, what in the Sam Hill are you objecting to? If Hall made a claim which cannot be actually demonstrated, why defend it? Why not just say, "You're right. It was a bit of a stretch. Sometimes we all overstate the case." No, instead you come here with blazing pistols, firing away, denying JD could possibly have said or acted in any way "haughty." Well Paul wasn't talking to non-believers in Romans 12;3 was he? Then, it's surely possible--perhaps probable--that JD, along with me and every other believer needs the corrective, yes?

And, as far as it is "drawing attention away from the message" that's not my problem. Remember, you guys are the ones making a big deal out of this not me. And, thus far the knee-jerk reactions have not been so helpful for your own community. I but brought JD down to my level as a sinner who sometimes takes himself far too seriously and thinks more of himself than he ought to think. But you guys want him a cut above, practically incapable of such. Not good, Kelly. Not good...

[Denna Tune]

Mr. Lumpkins, it appears you have a case of the "green-eyed monster." Continuing to nit pick over a number thrown out only shows your envy for his audience. You need to praise God for the number of people he has reached with the message of salvation. Shame on you!

[Shadrach]

Peter,
I'm sure from your research you know that Hall did a lot of ministry in the South before moving to Montana. I'm sure you also know how closely connected the NW SBC churches are. Thus, you are fully aware that he has a fairly strong following in AR, LA, KY, MT, WY, WA, ND, and other states from his ministry times in those areas.
Now the argument you are making is that we cannot "know" something unless we can absolutely quantify it. If you know that Hall's sermon has been listened to tens of thousands of times from multiple sites (not to mention however many times it has been heard from the link here) and we see that the bulk of his influence (thus the bulk of people likely to follow him and listen to his sermons) is Southern Baptist, is it really so difficult to accept that there are at least a couple of thousand SBCers out of those tens of thousands?
That being said, it is always good for us to remind one another to continually put on a mantle of humility. It is also important for us to do so with love. That is something you, me, and Jordan should remember.

[peter lumpkins]

"Shadrach"

Look. I know several guys who's ministered in several states over the last two decades. Granted. Granted as well Hall has some experience outside Montana. But such does nothing toward proving thousands of Southern Baptists listened to a particular sermon. Nothing. Not one iota. It stands as a claim which pragmatically cannot be proved. It can only be asserted without the slightest idea if there's any factual truth to it at all. Mere assumption based upon other assumptions. With others, I'll say to you: either show how this can be demonstrated and produce the validity or drop the defense.

And as for being "loving" about it I knew it was only a matter of time till someone logged on suggesting it's not what I said but the way I said it. That is, while I may be technically correct, I should have been "loving" in the way I said it. Oh brother.

Now, unless you want to deal with the post itself, I'll consider this exchange complete.

[Ben Stibbs]

So, are you upset because he falsely claimed that 1000s of baptists heard or because he's a calvinist? I'm confused here. Thanks.

[Ryan James]

Isn't it just as much of an assumption that the message HASN'T been listened to by thousands of people as it is to say the opposite? When there are now verified numbers that show that tens of thousands of people have listened to this message, isn't your limb stating that it isn't true just as shaky (if not more so) than his limb stating the affirmative? Seems to me that you need to swallow a little more of that pride, Pete, and admit the possibility that you might be wrong.

On a side note, it's more than a little pot-calling-the-kettle-black for you to talk about the vitriol on Hall's twitter, when yours is filled with nothing but arguments and veiled, Georgia-hoot insults (or on here, for that matter, since just on this thread you call some of your readers 'dense' just because they can't agree with you). I think we all know who the Georgia hoot is in the room...

[dustin germain]

I've been blessed immensely by JD Hall's ministry,particularily his 66 Gospel" series, which is fanatstic and I'm a Canadian who came down for Reformation 2013, found it to be a wonderful time of fellowship and biblical faithfulness, and God willing I'll be down for reformation 2014 with more people in tow.

[SnappyLips]

Wow! I just love the way Christ's name is being exalted in all of this! Oh yeah..........it's not.

As a "Calvinist", if that's what I must be labled, and one who agrees with Hall's sermon, I'm failing to see the benefit of this whole post and comment thread. Back and forth belittling, name-calling (on JDH'S page) and slandering is great for witnessing to onlookers. Not.

Look, P.L. can't prove that thousands of SBCs DIDN'T hear the message, and the prize for winning this goofy debate is what, a boost for your pride?

Seriously, go at it heated over the doctrines themselves and leave this childrens playground stuff alone. I can't believe all the time wasted on such a trivial topic.

[Bill C.]

How does that camel taste?

It's a biblical thought. I'll wait while you look it up.

[Garnet]

I'm very confused! Are you all upset at not knowing exactly how many SBC listeners JB has or that he is a Calvinist?

[peter lumpkins]

All

I initially hesitated about continuing to post the steady stream of emotional glop pouring in hopelessly defending Hall's questionable claim about the specific number of Southern Baptist listeners for a particular sermon. But I think it's good to see the kind of defense Hall's support base offers not to mention the highly visible "swarm" tactic readers may observe, a tactic I haven't experienced since the early days of my questioning James White. Congrats are in order for J.D. Hall.

Note also how so many of Hall's defenders actually concede the point that JD couldn't know how many Southern Baptists actually listened but nonetheless went right on defending him by personally making me the issue. Others attempt to place the burden upon my back to prove J.D.'s sermon was not heard by thousands of Southern Baptists as if it is my word against his. Still others (one) implied J.D. was much too modest in his claims; it wasn't thousands who listened to his sermon but tens of thousands!

This is the kind of emotional gobbledygook which, for the most part, has thus far come from Hall's support base.

[Piratechristian]

Peter,

You are suffering from what we in apologetic circles call, unconquerable ignorance.

1) Jordan was not being arrogant when he said these words, nor was ne being too big for his britches.

2) As I pointed out I have objective evidence that Jordan's speech has been heard by more than 46,000 people via my program alone. (How often are your lectures heard by so many?)

3) I also pointed out the fact that Jordan's speech was heard on Brannon Howse's radio program. Brannon's audience is larger than mine by a magnitude of 3 to 4 times. Keep in mind that Brannon broadcasts on over 50 terrestrial radio stations. Brannon himself IS a southern Baptist and his audience has a large southern Baptist representation.

Between my program and Brannon's program, Jordan's speech has easily been heard 200,000 times. For you to insist that there is no way to prove that its been heard by "1000's of Southern Baptists" because there is no way to prove this SBC folk comprised those listeners is so absurd it defies it makes you look like a willful fool.

Furthermore, this post of yours is nothing more than an Ad Hominem attack. You might want to watch this video and educate yourself about the fact that an Ad Hominem is not an argument. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD50OTR3arY

Peter, I would also point out this, the fact that THIS is the content of Jordan's speech that you've decided to take to task rather than deal with the substance of what Jordan said demonstrates to me 1) you are one biased and brooding individual and 2) you have no Biblical ability to overturn any of the core arguments that Jordan brought to bear in his speech. Otherwise, if you could you would. You can't so you're resorting to Ad Hominem.

Lastly, If Jordan really is a nobody who preaches in no where whom 1,000's of Baptists aren't listening too then why on earth are you wasting your time? Your actions, which are intended to embarrass and attack Jordan's character rather than substantively address the issues that he brought up show that you consider Jordan to be a HUGE threat within the SBC. If it weren't true then you would never have been so foolish as to give him even more expose here on your blog.

[Andrew Barker]

Peter, Bill C. obviously thinks you're John the Baptist! so your fame is sure spreading. I say this on the basis that he appears to be convinced you ate that Camel, probably for breakfast! John the Bap was well known for his outfit and that Camel skin had to ........ well you get my drift, it had to come from somewhere and no need to let all that Camel go to waste!

Mind you, I am reminded of the second part of John's message which was that 'He' should increase and 'I' must decrease. It's a pity folks miss that bit. Perhaps some of JD's loyal henchmen, sorry, supporters would like to consider that before they worry themselves to death about a silly ratings claim.

Now, what's for afternoon tea? Locusts and wild honey no doubt! yum yum ;)

[Ben Stibbs]

Sir, I humbly ask you again: Are you upset because he falsely claimed that 1000s of baptists heard or because he's a calvinist? These are points main points you deamed necessary to bring up. I'm confused here. Thanks.

[Bill C.]

What amazes me Mr. Lumpkins is that you are expressing more confidence that it's not possible that 1000's of Southern Baptists couldn't have listened, than what Mr. Hall expressed were going to listen.

So you are as guilty of(this imaginary sin) as Mr. Hall.

You have no way to know how may SBCers have listened to the sermon. Yet you boast that you have some kind of secret knowledge that it couldn't possibly be as Mr. Hall suggested.

Is your next blog post going to be about how you are a small church pastor that has the spiritual gift of "Census Taking"?

How is it that you can take a small phrase and turn it into a mountain large enough to spray paint "boaster" on the side? Do you pride yourself as the hyperbole police?
I still fail to see why you think this means anything .

[dustin germain]

you openly mock and disparage a brother in christ whom many of us love dearly, and when we come to his defence we're just a "swarm" using "swarm tactics"? how very dishonest of you

[Scott Shaver]

What an interesting thread. Peter, you've obviously struck a nerve with the friends and convictional allies of Bro. Hall.

As one of the thousands who will be reviewing the message I was wondering if we might be persuaded to preach to prairie dogs in Montana that passing motorists might be saved.

No problem here "mocking" one who makes mockery a business model.

[Scott Shaver]

Perhaps those angry with Peter over this thread might thank him for helping to make the vision of 1000 possible?

[Jonathan Carter]

Peter, I found it laughable! Thanks for posting it, I got a good laugh, and even more good laughs reading some of the responses from the "followers" of JD! I think I now more clearly understand what a 'Georgia hoot' is! Blessings Peter.

[Mistrepresident]

What makes you a slanderer is not that you criticized JD, but that you did so publicly. If a pastor learns a member is struggling with something like sexual immorality, should he blab it to his congregation in his next weeks' sermon? Or should he personally approach him to warn him of his sin? There lies the line between slander and constructive criticism. Secondly, since he is a Southern Baptist and he has been watched/heard 46k+ times, wouldn't at least 2 in 46 listeners be of his own denomination? Secondly, does it matter what denomination they are since we are all a part of the Body of Christ?

[Max]

There is no shortage of arrogance in the various threads of New Calvinism. By this all men will know that you are My disciples?!

[Amanda Snowden]

Mr. Lumpkins,

After reading through these comments and seeing your responses, there is still something which I cannot understand. First, however, I would like to give you a little bit of background on myself. I am a follower of Pastor Hall's teachings so I guess you could call me a part of his "posse," although I much prefer the term student. I reside in Western Pennsylvania and came across Pastor Hall's teachings by chance one day. You see, my husband and I, also Southern Baptists, were having a hard time with our church because we adhere to the doctrines of grace. I guess you, sir, would call it "strict Calvinism." Our church was a major supporter of all the John 3:16 conference teachers in their attempts of trying to disprove and "rid," so to speak, the SBC of these ancient Biblical doctrines. While on one hand we were told it wasn't an issue, on the other we were being sort of frowned upon and ignored when it came to, well, pretty much anything to do with the church. We were looked at like we were the two-headed monster that had no place in their realm of fellowship. It was quite discouraging to say the least. However, one day we happened upon Pastor Hall's teachings by pure accident and were amazed and encouraged at what God was doing through the Reformation Montana ministry. Now, Mr. Lumpkins, my confusion lies here. You stated, "Part of the reason of this post is to caution us all to be careful with the claims we make, claims which look a heck of a lot bigger than our pay-grade. I included myself in the little experiment." You claimed that part of your reasoning for the post was to caution us all to be careful with our claims, including yourself. While I take that statement with a grain of salt, I can't help but wonder why, sir, if this is true, you insisted on pointing out that Mr. Hall was a "strict Calvinist." If it is merely a concern that a fellow brother has sinned and you have so humbly included yourself as falling into this same sin, why was it so necessary to include this information? If you felt another non-Calvinist fellow brother was in sin and you asked for him to adhere to Biblical teachings, would you feel the need to point out that this person was not a Calvinist, not an Arminian, but a "strict Baptist." One can't help but to wonder if this whole post, being it is so immaterial, is yet just another attack on the two-headed monster that doesn't belong in the realm of the SBC.

[peter lumpkins]

Max, Jon, Scott, Andrew,

Hope you guys are well. Hope also you had a good Lord's Day. Thanks for the logon. As you can see, a few bees have been swarming. Ouch!

[peter lumpkins]

Ben - Read my OP and comments again. I think you may have confused me with others who are *obviously* "upset"

Bill C - And what amazes me is your complete disregard for what I've actually claimed. Where have I so much as hinted the impossibility of 1000s of Southern Baptists listening to JD Hall?

Dustin - I "openly mock and disparage" brothers? I think you have me confused with J.D. Hall who does so quite often in fact. I'll be glad to post the links if I need to

Mistrepresident - unfortunately your comeback comment reveals no wiser insight than your previous. Please stop unless you think before you pop off.

Amanda - I'm sorry for your treatment. Too often we are cold toward one another. Also be aware that strict Calvinists have no better track record for accepting those unlike them than the fellowship you encountered. Indeed Hall and his theological buddies like James White and to a lesser extent, Earl Blackburn, refer to me and those like me to be both heretics and unregenerate (and yes, I have the links). So believe me, I sympathize with the rejection you felt.

As for why I identified Hall as a "strict Calvinist" it's because that's precisely what he is from my perspective. All you have to do is google my site and see I routinely employ "strict Calvinist" to speak f any number of modern day Baptist Calvinists.

Thanks again...

[peter lumpkins]

All,

Know I think I've been more than patient on the thread. Some will agree with the claim and others will not. Even so, because I do think I've been more than fair and patient allowing not only dissent, but also emotionally-driven spew to be posted (spew you'd never in a thousand years see posted on many Calvinist blogs because they won't allow it), I'm not going to continue posting the same complaints from the same group of commenters. Most of the commenters are only rephrasing the initial complaint they logged against me from the start. Namely, I'm little more than a low-down scoundrel for posting this piece about J. D. Hall. And, since there's really only limited ways one can continue implicating me as a scoundrel, then know I'm not going to continue posting the same accusation by the same people.

Furthermore, I've even gone the second mile I think by allowing anonymous commenters some free range to graze a while. I normally have strict aversions toward anons. But at times I lax up and let it go. So, no more anonymous commenting on this thread.

Too bad some of you could not have shared with a little more self-control. Even so, thanks for your participation.

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter lumpkins]

Chris (Piratechristian)

Thanks. I’ll try to respond to your numbered points accordingly. However, before the numbered points you mentioned I suffered from what you in “apologetic circles call, unconquerable ignorance.” In response, thank you very much. I’m glad you think you’ve discovered the issue here—my apparent sickness. So, in your view, the problem is not a bit of a stretch on J.D.’s (or yours) in claiming a specific number of SBC listeners but my malady of unconquerable ignorance, and you have your “apologetic circles” to back you up! For the record, Chris, is this based on some more of your supposed “objective” evidence you claim to possess or just a subjective prognosis you’ve asserted? If it is “objective” perhaps we could explore it. If not, well, each to his own as they say.

Now on to your numbered points:

“1) Jordan was not being arrogant when he said these words, nor was ne being too big for his britches.”  Well, that’s your subjective opinion, Chris. I happen to think JD, like most of us, is capable of being both arrogant and  too big for his britches and his claim in the opening words prior to his sermon demonstrate nicely his making a claim far beyond empirical evidence could substantiate.  Consequently,  the Apostle’s words were applicable to him just like to me and other believers. 

“2) As I pointed out I have objective evidence that Jordan's speech has been heard by more than 46,000 people via my program alone. (How often are your lectures heard by so many?)”  Let me answer the parenthesis first: while I can gauge fairly well how often my sermons-teaching (not lectures) are publicly offered,  I haven’t a clue how many actually listen  to them. I’m quite sure at least two congregants have never listened to a “live” sermon on Sunday for the sole reason that when I stand to speak they sink to sleep. Please understand: they may actually listen later but they don’t then I remain quite confident. Moreover, there may be others in the congregation who look wide awake but are actually working through Monday’s to do list. Now maybe you have what you claim is “objective evidence” to not only know that 46,000+ people actually listened to Hall’s sermon, but also out of that 46,000+ people whom you insist you know listened  how many listeners were Southern Baptists. Granted. But until you reveal to us what that “objective evidence” is, you can keep right on popping off about it, Chris,  but my unconquerable ignorance is going to insist you put up or shut up.  Oh, before I forget, going back to the parenthetical statement, even if I did know how often and how many actually listened to my “lectures,” such knowledge has jack squat to do with whether Hall’s claim is warranted. I believe in your “apologetic circles” you boys call what you’ve just thrown me a “red herring.” Not cool, Chris. Shame, shame, shame.

3) I also pointed out the fact that Jordan's speech was heard on Brannon Howse's radio program. Brannon's audience is [3 to 4 times] larger… Brannon broadcasts on over 50 terrestrial radio stations. Brannon himself IS a southern Baptist… .

… Jordan's speech has easily been heard 200,000 times. For you to insist that there is no way to prove that its been heard by "1000's of Southern Baptists"…  is so absurd it defies it makes you look like a willful fool.” Yes, you did point it out concerning Howse’s program. But merely pointing it out a second time adds exactly what to your previous point, Chris?  You’ve no more “objective evidence” for knowing how many Southern Baptists listened to Hall on Howse than you did on your own station. The one new relevant factor you listed is your claim Howse is a Southern Baptist. And, while that assists in his potentially having more influence than your station amongst Southern Baptists, you still lack any “objective evidence” gleaned from any sort of data to know not only how many people actually listened to Hall’s sermon, but also how many of those who actually listened were Southern Baptists.  Now you can again scream from the mountain tops how unconquerably ignorant I might be—so ignorant, in fact, I’m a “willful fool”—be my guest. But I don’t give two shakes of a gnat’s behind what you might think about me. To claim such to be “objective evidence” makes the joke on you, Chris, not me.

What is more, your so-called “objective evidence” has led you from Hall’s initial claim of “thousands of Southern Baptist listeners” to your heretofore “10s of thousands” of Southern Baptist listeners to your now imaginative, incredible claim of hundreds of thousands of Southern Baptist listeners!  Congrats! You win the official Double Georgia Hoot Award! hands down. Now, according to your “objective evidence” Hall spoke to hundreds of thousands of Southern Baptist listeners. Personally, I don’t know what “apologetic circles” you belong to, but know I’d rather remain in my unconquerable ignorance amongst my West Georgia rednecks than sign up for your intellectual elite.

[4]. Furthermore, this post of yours is nothing more than an Ad Hominem attack.  Well, Chris, if a) admitting one’s self as often times thinking more highly of himself than he should; and b) speaking a biblical injunction which serves as a divinely inspired corrective to his bloated ego; and c) applying that same biblical corrective to another by offering an example of it constitutes  Ad Hominem attack, I think we’ve just lost all sense of exactly what Christian exhortation might mean. By the way, if I recall correctly, JD named at least two people in his sermon—denominational executives as I recall—as out and out liars and deceivers.  Tell me, Chris, would JD’s words fit the  ‘Ad Hominem attack’ you claim I committed on this post?  In addition, what are these descriptors called: “willful fool”; “unconquerable ignorance”; “biased and brooding”; “no Biblical ability”; “foolish”?  All of these are, of course, your depiction of me. Tell, me, Chris, have you actually watched the video you linked or was it only for the benefit of those outside your trusty “apologetic circles”?  We’d like to know.

“[5] …the fact that THIS is the content of Jordan's speech that you've decided to take to task rather than deal with the substance of what Jordan said…” Well, Chris, if you have to know, I did deal with the content—the specific content JD himself identified as the opening remarks before he actually began his message.  And one of the points he wanted to make was that thousands of SBCers would listen, a supposition neither he nor you with all your “apologetic circle” backing you up is able to demonstrate.  Frankly, that’s probably why you may be a little bit perturbed. I actually challenged a statement albeit all your bloated sophistry about “objective evidence” you can’t substantiate. Instead you can only subjectively claim “10s of thousands” and then pound the desk by claiming even louder still—hundreds of thousands!! Okeedokee… Next you could predictably be insisting millions upon millions of Southern Baptist listeners! 

“[6]... 1) you are one biased and brooding individual and 2) you have no Biblical ability to overturn any of the core arguments that Jordan brought to bear in his speech. Otherwise, if you could you would. You can't so you're resorting to Ad Hominem.” You have my express permission to think I’m “biased and brooding” all you wish.  Now if you’d only deliver the “objective evidence” you claim, we could get somewhere. In addition, how interesting you question my “Biblical ability” to overturn any of the “key arguments” Hall delivered. I addressed a key claim from Hall’s opening remarks and irony of irony, my reason for questioning Hall’s unfounded claim was a direct quote from Scripture, a quote you deny applies to Hall. You’re making it just too easy, I’m afraid, Chris (wink wink).

“[7] Lastly, If Jordan really is a nobody who preaches in no where whom 1,000's of Baptists aren't listening too then why on earth are you wasting your time?  Your actions, which are intended to embarrass and attack Jordan's character rather than substantively address the issues that he brought up show that you consider Jordan to be a HUGE threat within the SBC. If it weren't true then you would never have been so foolish as to give him even more expose here on your blog.” In response, there you go again, Chris. Who’s suggested Jordon is a “nobody who preaches in no where”? Shame… Shame! Are we creating things I’ve neither suggested nor would?  Nor have I claimed 1000’s of Southern Baptists aren’t listening. Get it right, Chris, or better to not bring it up at all. What I’ve done on this thread is denied there’s credible evidence which substantiates Hall’s claim that his sermon has thousands of Southern Baptist listeners. Neither you nor others have offered a single thing seriously challenging my rejection of his claim notwithstanding your insistence you possessed “objective evidence.”

Nor is it really any of your business why I choose to blog on those subjects I do any more than my business what you do or what Hall tweets what he does. I don’t dance to your beat, Chris. Clear?  Nor do I shrink from addressing an issue because it might give someone exposure. What a poor reason to not deal with a particular subject. Did you shrink from dealing with Furtick because your dealing with him might give him exposure he didn't have?  Please. Not only is that cowardly, it’s snobbery at its best.

Now, unless you have anything new—say, some real “objective evidence”—I‘ll consider this exchange complete.  I’m perfectly happy in my unconquerably ignorant state of mind.

With that, I am…

Peter