Religious Liberty, Islamic Terrorism, and Balthasar Hubmaier

Gerald Harris, Editor of Georgia's Christian Index, recently published an editorial which proved to be quite provocative. Entitled "Do Muslims Really Qualify for Religious Liberty Benefits?" Harris questioned whether modern terrorist Islam is more a "geo-political movement" engaged in a violent aggressive goal to invade American borders and kill American infidels rather than a peaceful religion protected by first amendment rights. Harris was clear he was not questioning the historic Baptist notion of universal religious liberty—that is, religious liberty is not limited to Christian believers, but religious liberty is inclusive of believers of all faiths or even no faiths.

However, Harris did seem to question whether religious liberty was absolute—that is, whether terrorist religious groups like modern Islam breeds may legally hide under the protection of first amendment freedom of religion rights. Though Harris did not say it like this, it seems fair to his reasoning to conclude he was raising the question that while religious liberty must be universal, religious liberty cannot be absolute.

Consequently, while all things being equal, all people must be free to worship or not worship God according to his or her conscience and do so without civil intervention, it does not follow that those who believe or propose the death of infidels as core religious doctrine should be protected under first amendment rights.

Not all appeared to accept Harris' editorial as baptistically sound. Texas pastor, Bart Barber fired off a white hot screed against Harris implicating him in managing to do what no Baptist in history has ever done—deny universal religious liberty. Barber suggested a grade-school student could have proposed a better argument than he, ultimately challenging the Baptist editor to take some time to study the issue and then rescind his unworthy notion.¹

Piling on more, three scholarly Fellows affiliated with Russell Moore and the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission contacted Baptist Press and requested it publish an "open letter" in which they raised a number of issues with Harris' editorial. Chief among them was the constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion for all people (including Muslims). However, once again, Harris did not deny universal religious liberty. Rather he seemed to deny absolute religious liberty, a denial which not only seems reasonable, but also seems embedded even within Anabaptism.

Allow me to show you what I mean.

Balthasar Hubmaier is considered by many to be one of the greatest theologians of the Reformation. As a "father" of sorts of the Anabaptist movement, Hubmaier also stands as an icon of religious liberty. Going further than the magisterial reformers, Hubmaier argued for a separation of powers between church and state, arguing religious liberty without persecution against theological dissenters.

When Hans Hut showed up in Nikolsburg at the end of 1526, he immediately incited Hubmaier's attention with his preaching concerning the day of the Lord. Hut, along with a group of local fanatical Anabaptists led by Jacob Widemann, preached the day of the Lord was at hand, and the mission of God's people was to take up the sword of the Lord against ungodly rulers. Civil authorities intervened with the ultimate result of detaining Hans Hut under arrest. However, instead of defending Hut's religious liberty, Hubmaier sided with the civil authorities in arresting Hut!

Why?

Perhaps it's because while Hubmaier embraced without qualification universal religious liberty, he did not embrace absolute religious liberty. Though Hans Hut established his views from biblical texts, he nonetheless was committing gross uncivil atrocities by inciting death to ungodly rulers and apparently forfeiting his right to religious freedom. 

Consider: how would Hubmaier's view, in principle, be different from Harris' view?

 

¹Barber has published another piece since the Orlando tragedy just a few days ago, a tragedy where 49 men and women were sadly gunned down in an Orlando, Florida nightclub. The killer was a radical Islamist. Barber's more recent piece, after considering the clarifications he makes on universal religious liberty, looks amazingly similar in significant ways to Harris' view.

Comments

[Scott Shaver]

Barber is among other current SBC "voices" who are trying to retain the image of conserving at least a portion of our "Southern Baptist" heritage by touting "relious liberty", "religious liberty, religious liberty" "religious liberty".

There is no religious "liberty" without the illumination of Christ, and there will certainly be no religious liberty in the Judeo-Christian framework of the constitution if Sharia law is allowed quarter or consideration on American soil.

If you don't think it can happen, look at London. Or France.

Absolue "religious liberty" is impossible with a theological system that insists on all or nothing. Especially when pennance can be achieved (in the mind of the adherent) with a public act of jihad.

I would like to see Russell Moore and Barber step up their game by raising funds to erect mosques next door to their Southern Baptist churches if they really want to emphasize religious "liberty".

Walk the talk other than spouting at the mouth.

[Scott Shaver]

Barber makes no mention of the fact that murderer in Orlando may have been a part of that city's "gay" community.

[Scott Shaver]

If such is true, Perhaps Barber ought to address the theology of Islam in America before he declares Gerald Harris to be off base.

[Lydia]

We don't have absolute religious liberty now. If a religion included sacrificing animals or worse, people, it becomes criminal behavior. Islam, practiced devoutly, cannot co exist with our Constitution. Is Barber forgetting the girls raised in devout Islam who have no Liberty but to be cast out of families if they dare disagree?

In England there are now over 80 Sharia courts operating that are legal. Why?( Ex-Females are not allowed to inherit in devout forms of Islam.) So why do Muslims want to operate their own non criminal justice system? For what purpose? Because English law does not support their medieval
Thinking? Europe has become Islamized. 45% of Londoners are Muslim.

It is hard for devout Muslims to live under our constitution because Islam was invented to be a theocracy. Liberty for the devout Islam is cruel or even deadly to someone else. Self government is an alien concept to devout Muslims.

[Lydia]

Btw: Religious liberty and Calvinism? Now that is a hoot.

[Lydia]

Scott, to better understand how these guys communicate, I recommend Orwell.

[Scott Shaver]

Am familiar with Orwell and he sounds at this juncture more prophetic than SBC pastors and "leaders" since 1969.

They're worried about Jim Crow and re-living the civil war and civil rights movement while mandating the national embrace of an element that despises not only the foundation but the expression of their Uudeo-Christian principles/religious beliefs as a simple matter of historical record.

Would love to see a video-tape of Bart Barber and his family walking around some select neighborhoods in London "out of attire" while rattling coffers on behalf of "religious liberty for all".

If they can't help Muslim Americans raise mosque-building money to validate their cries for religious liberty and if Russell Moore can't take the oil painting of the Confederate Army Chaplain down from the wall of his Washington office, "Calvinism" is the least of their problems.

Why should we listen to word these characters have to say about anything ESPECIALLY "THE GOSPEL" OR "THE BIBLE"?

Adios and via con Dios

[Scott Shaver]

Barber has already expressed his support for an Islamic cemetary in Farmerville. He needs to follow through on his public committment to his idea of religious liberty and help his prospective new neighbors also build a mosque. Helping them to raise money for such a project in Farmerville Texas would be the "Christian" thing to do..right?

Or at least "baptist"...right?

[Scott Shaver]

So I gather from this article that Hubmaier was not afraid to break ranks with his peers on matters of conviction.

Odd....Ronnie Floyd (Current SBC President) decried and demonized the spirit of independence in Baptists at least three times during his presidential address to Southern Baptist Convention this morning.

Not my president....Not my pastor, Not my voice of "christian" or "baptist" reason for the record.

[Scott Shaver]

Here's another question for guys like Bret Barber and I'll quit.

Are all of your own church members on board with your "religious liberty at any cost" raves and rants?

I doubt it. Wonder if they feel like the pastor is really concerned about their security as well their "spiritual" conditions.

Bet their are opposite opinions even within the ranks of the enlightened. Laying 8-3 odds on it.

[Scott Shaver]

If Barber and Moore are going to go down on the basis of religious principle (i.e. religious liberty, racisim) why don't they go all they way?

Why are they pulling punches?

[Scott Shaver]

Looks to me like a "gay" Muslim, tired of life and living, went out with his hopes of redemption or absolution tacked to an act of Jihad against those with whom he formerly sought solace and companionship.

Had his religious orientation been slightly more Christian, suicide without collateral damage might have been more...."feasible"?

Whether Isis had anything to do with it or not.

[Lydia]

I am trying to square their concept of religious liberty with Al Mohler and his words and actions over the last 10 years.

With their "reformed only" church plants and us not having the true Gospel. And the suggestion the Trads are heretics and the signers should be marginalized. Mohler thinks like a Muslim. Religious liberty for Muslims but not all Baptists or they are heretics.

Frankly, Mohler and crew behaved more like Muslims and have more in common as they birh worship a determinist god.

I suspect Barber sees where the power potential lies in the SBC. Like Patterson. I think all of this is about softening their image right down to the worthless resolution. After all they ignored the last resolution on child abuse and protecting the innocent. Now SGM is SBC. Thanks to Mohler.

[Scott Shaver]

The SBC as a denomination now falls under the classic definition of a Protestant religio-social CULT in my mind.

Will keep it's influence as far from my family and under check as is possible.

[Scott Shaver]

Agreed Lydia:

Barbers of the baptist world are displaying their true "principles".

[Scott Shaver]

Just received emails from three serving SBC pastors with whom I schooled and served. All of them with 30+ years pastoring and serving SBC in various capacities. Here's the sobering estimation of one.

Name withheld to protect the innocent and currently serving:

"The total emphasis on social agendas and issues is sad. The SBC as originally formed (for the propagation of missions and evangelism) is no more.

CP is a relic. I hope that Greear get elected. He is non-SBC and will help hasten the total demise.

Not sure how all this will affect state conventions, but once several of the old state heads retire, the loyalty to colleges and state institutions will dissolve as well.

I remember in "Little Big Man" when Hoffman's indian grandfather lay down to die because there were no more human beings alive. Looking up the old man asked, 'Am I dead yet?' To which Hoffman replied: 'No Grandfather'..."

It may still have the emblems, but the SBC is dead and there are no "human beings" left alive.

[Scott Shaver]

By way of comparison: Russell Moore tweets to Steve Gaines:

"If the Devil meant divide us, he failed".

Or at least 51 % of 3500-4000 voting messengers who may or may not represent the collective religious consience of their respective congregations.

Newsflash: The DIVISION (S) have already occurred :( .... and continue.

[Scott Shaver]

I "repent" of my former estimate of 3500-4000 voting messengers. Dave Miller (Pravda) has just expressed his personna non grata views of the 10% of registered SBC messengers in attendance this year who voted against the ridiculous "Confederate Flag" prohibition as being "racists" and worthy of exposure and "annoyance".

What a man of GAWD.

Subtract at least 10 of messengers in attendance at 2016 SBC as being spiritual degenerates whose votes don't matter anyway.

[Lydia]

Just reading a few lines of posts at Pravda. And calling it Pravda is appropriate. Miller, Barber and others have institutionalized binary thinking just like the Soviets of recent history. If you are not on board with their brand of their agenda then you are (fill in the blank).

Not a lot of room for nuance on issues or discussion in their world. It is the pedantic world of binary thinking on purpose to make anyone questioning tbe premise of definitions out to be horrible. So glad to be out of that world. It is a world of indoctrination not thinking.

[Mary]

Lydia, I love how "Unity" seems to be defined as "let's all go attack those we don't like for asking questions and pointing out that rules are rules and should be followed."

[KB]

Lydia - 4.5% of the entire population of the United Kingdom are Muslims, not London!

[Scott Shaver]

Lydia: The new SBC President Gaines once scaled a wall in a Memphis gated community to get after a deacon who disagreed with him....right about the time Mrs Adrian Rogers left Bellevue. Seems the "SBC tradition" is in good hands. LOL

[Lydia]

KB, I was referring to London. Take it up with the media that has been using that figure for residents of London who just elected a Muslim Mayor.

It fits with what my British friends have been saying for the last 5 years.

[Scott Shaver]

KB, in addition to fear of posting his name also explains why posting anonymously is preferred in this case. Nobody to point out for supplying bogus and contrived stats....also an SBC "Hallmark".

[Scott Shaver]

Looks like some Christians in America are wondering whether or not Elijah (aka Russell Moore) is also willing to erect a few altars to to Baal for the sake and common good of "religious liberty".

I think religious "syncretism" got some folks in trouble in Old Testament times if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong.

http://www.trunews.com/southern-baptists-help-build-mosques-in-interfaith-coalition/?utm_campaign=social&utm_medium=TRUNEWS&utm_source=facebook

[Scott Shaver]

And here's another shot across the bow against the alleged "wisdom" and "baptist orientation" of mouths like those attached to one Bart Barber.

This former alum of Baylor leads the internet charge against his school for "sexual abuse at the hands of scholarship athletes." Subsequently, Briles is fired and Starr is Chancelor.

The headlines on Pravda were something along the lines of another victory for the righteous chosen of God.

Today, Briles files countersuit against Baylor (Devastating amounts and charges) for slanderous accusation without proof or institutional filters. For example, its against policy for incoming athletes to be "profiled" for questionable arrests/records etc prior to being signed.

Hey Barber, what's your ethical solution to this now that you may have led the charge against the fiscal dismantling of the college you "LOVE".

This coming from nobody with any ties to Baylor.

[Scott Shaver]

With friends like Barber and Moore, why would any group of cooperating Baptists need ENEMIES?

[Scott Shaver]

Bet you Barber has a favorite Baylor shirt that he used to wear to home games as well. LOL.

[Scott Shaver]

Wonder if Dave Miller and Bart Barber have joined Russell Moore in raising mosque-building dollars?

[Scott Shaver]

These guys like to play games publicly with the current cultural winds but they sure don't like taking responsibility for the backlashes or effects.

They cowardly defer to Jesus after rather than before the fact.

[Scott Shaver]

Here's a question for Lydia and Mary right now.

Why do you think we've not had any input from the defenders of Calvinism within the SBC from our usual supsects right about this point.

Hypothesis: They're having to think through Russell Moore, Alan Cross and Islam.

"Religious liberty" nothwithstanding.