« Both Al Mohler and Russell Moore agree: #NeverTrump #NeverHillary. Both also dead wrong. | Main | It's settled. Women can't vote in a Baptist church. No wait. COULDN'T vote in a Baptist church »

2016.06.28

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Les Prouty

Lydia, "A higher standard for the non ruling elders?"

Why I have no idea what you mean. I am still a ruling elder. But whether a ruling elder, teaching elder, pastor (since some don't prefer elder), or a congregant. The standard is the same. So I'm confused when you said I was being my "typical" pastoral self. Do you think pastors/elders are held to a higher standard than you are?

Johnathan Pritchett

Les, again, I know the distinction you are trying to make. I understand that. I know what people affirm in their beliefs, and that they are sincere.

Like Roger Olsen, and Sproul for that matter, I think ideas have consequences. So, when Olsen says he thinks determinism leads to God being the author and source of evil, he understands that Michael Horton does not affirm that. Olsen just believes that Horton's view necessarily entails that and there is no convincing arguments to the contrary regardless of what Horton says he believes.

So similarly, I know you and Sproul don't believe that God does not act in the same way towards the elect and the reprobate on your understanding. However, I just believe that the DP view espoused in this construct still necessarily entails otherwise and there is no convincing arguments to the contrary regardless of what y'all say you believe.

So, unintentional heresy, sure. But, unless and until demonstrated otherwise, heresy nonetheless. :)

That's all I meant.

Les Prouty

Johnathan,

I think we are getting each other. You "Just believe that the DP view espoused in this construct still necessarily entails otherwise and there is no convincing arguments to the contrary regardless of what y'all say you believe."

So you are entitled to said belief. Doesn't make you right, even if Sproul or I attempt and actually make a good argument. You won't be convinced. Way smarter men and theologians than I have debated these matters for a long time and way smarter men and theologians remain unconvinced. Good arguments have been made. But good men still remain unconvinced.

This thing about what our theology entails...I have thought for a long time, 30 plus years, that the universal atonement espoused by many around these parts (perhaps you too) necessarily entails everyone in heaven or totally forgiven people in hell. Now I know these good Christian brothers and sisters don't believe those two entailments. But no one has, in my view, convincingly argued otherwise. But ok. It doesn't really appeal to me to jump all over the place trying to correct all these misguided people (misguided IMO). Their view, if followed out to these logical entailments, is heresy. But I will not use that word on them. They are not even accidental heretics. They are just wrong. It is not heresy as I understand the usage of the word.

Anyway, back to my yard work.

Johnathan Pritchett

Well, no one has ever condemned universal atonement as heresy in any form that I am aware of. So that comparison sort of doesn't work on that.

But I get what you mean here.

It's a holiday weekend. Don't do yard work. Rest is good. ;)

Lydia

"Better catch this one quick before Lime Green removes his post, Lydia."

There was a cheering section on another blog for Kitty.

Lydia

The best I have seen refute ESS outside of Giles is Cheryl Schatz. She recognized it right away due to her ministry to cults like JW and Mormon. The Trinity is a huge issue when people are coming out of those cults. She made a DVD called "The Trinity Eternity Past and Future" which covers Gen to Revelation.

Still, I am blown away at the response. Finally. My guess is Mohler provides cover for the ESS inherent at SBTS. This is yet the stickiest corner I have seen him in. Not Driscoll or Mahaney. Mohler has gotten by with all sorts of deception and brain gaming.

They need ESS for their gender war.

Lydia

" Do you think pastors/elders are held to a higher standard than you are?"

What would be the point of "pastoring" people if you don't model? Shouldn't you also be modeling for pastors as a ruling elder? Perhaps it is just a lofty title for the egos.

Les Prouty

Lydia, of course pastors (elders) should model. Should I as an elder modeling for pastors? Pastors ARE elders. But yes, we should be modeling for each other. We all as Christians should.

And no it's not a lofty title for egos. It's just a biblical title. We could have chosen something like a Submit to Elder, but that seems awkward to say. The truth is in that title, just awkward. Ya know, pastors/elders/shepherds have sheep to care for. Sheep need shepherds to lead and guide them. Sheep don't dictate to their shepherds where to go and what to do. It's the other way around. :)

Lydia

"And no it's not a lofty title for egos. It's just a biblical title. We could have chosen something like a Submit to Elder, but that seems awkward to say. The truth is in that title, just awkward. Ya know, pastors/elders/shepherds have sheep to care for. Sheep need shepherds to lead and guide them. Sheep don't dictate to their shepherds where to go and what to do. It's the other way around. :)"

Do ruling elders have higher level human shepherds to guide them?

Les Prouty

"Do ruling elders have higher level human shepherds to guide them?"

Humanly, we have each other. Next we have two higher levels of oversight. Over all that we are under the authority of the Great Shepherd. And we will give an account for our service.

"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

Mary

So much for humility. We are now being told that racism is part of the Gospel and if we don't agree then we are racist and/or support racism. What other works are we going to add to the Gospel. I guess the SBC Founders who were slaveholders in no way could have been Christians since race is now part of the Gospel.

Mary

If we follow Miller's logic than we need to be advocating for one world government and abolition of all borders since borders and separate governments are keeping us from being the one people that Jesus died for.

Lydia

"Humanly, we have each other. Next we have two higher levels of oversight. Over all that we are under the authority of the Great Shepherd. And we will give an account for our service.
"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.""

Very cool for you on earth, Les! You can have your cake and eat it too!. Am very familiar with Mahaneys favorite verse. He pounded his tiny church with it after T4G when protestors showed up about him protecting molesters. See, they are to "obey" him. No matter what.

You might want to check out some Jesus. He contradicts that pitiful translation of Hebrews from the state church mentality you crave.

We should never obey arrogant hypocrites with lofty man conferred titles, either... unless you are in a cult and don't know better.

But Jesus never fails.

Les Prouty

Lydia, your ability to misuse and misinterpret scripture exceeds your ability to invoke Mahaney more times than Doan's has back pills.

"You might want to check out some Jesus. He contradicts that pitiful translation of Hebrews from the state church mentality you crave." So few words and so many errors on your part.

"You might want to check out some Jesus." Have.
"He contradicts that pitiful translation of Hebrews..." Not.
"...from the state church mentality..." Another swing and miss.
"...you crave." And you know my heart cravings exactly how? Every word of the above two sentences is wrong.

"We should never obey arrogant hypocrites with lofty man conferred titles, either... unless you are in a cult and don't know better."

Agree. We should never do that. And if I run into any characters like that, which I haven't, I'll be sure to steer clear.

Andrew Barker

Another gem from Les Prouty? "But if RT is true, and it is, then it is evidenced beginning in Genesis 1:1"

Tell us Les, please, in what way did God need to be Reformed?

Scott Shaver

Miller and Debbie Kaufman are two peas in a pod.

I think they missed their match.

Les Prouty

"Tell us Les, please, in what way did God need to be Reformed?"

When you understand what I said in the fuller context ("I didn't say the systemization of RT has been around since Genesis. Read more carefully. But if RT is true, and it is, then it is evidenced beginning in Genesis 1:1"), come on back and we can talk.

Lydia

Les, you are a very important man in your bubble and I know that is very important to you. We will never interpret scripture the same way because we come to it with different filters. So when you, in particular, tell me I misuse scripture it only tells me that I am on the right track.

Les Prouty

"Les, you are a very important man in your bubble and I know that is very important to you."

Maybe I was in error in my earlier statements. Maybe your self perceived ability to know people's hearts (what is important to them) exceeds even your other abilities.

"So when you, in particular, tell me I misuse scripture it only tells me that I am on the right track."

If that thought gives you comfort...

Lydia

Here we go again. I don't need to know "hearts". Patterns of writing/words used in comments for years makes some things obvious. Add in the title, too. :o)

Scott Shaver

Why hasn't "Elijah" said anything about FBI Director's assessment of irresponsibility on part of Trump's adversary.

Doe's Elijah sleepeth? or perhaps he's gone to restroom?

Scott Shaver

Les:

You might want to make a pass by Pravda and see if you can accomplish more constructive by helping out your ole buddy Miller.

Seems he's gonna have to shut down a thread for he initiated after discovering his not in the "Gospel" majority opinion. He could use a little help from someone as articulate as yourself.

Looks like he's alienating even his regular commentators. You need a cause.....save Miller.

Mary

Scott, Miller's having a meltdown. He's trying real hard to push his SJW meme back into the Bible. The verses he keeps using regarding Jew/Gentile divide are about a religious privilege the Jews felt they had a right to and not the race privilege Miller is trying to make fit his meme. You have to wonder what a guy like Miller's done in his life to exhibit such Liberal White Guilt.

Lydia

"You have to wonder what a guy like Miller's done in his life to exhibit such Liberal White Guilt."

Personally, I think an edict from on high has gone out that the Neo Cal movement needs to reimage from the arrogant deceivers they are to taking up a social cause like racism. It is low hanging fruit that gets them media attention and makes them look "nice" with little effort or real sacrifice.

Miller has always been one of the water carriers with the blog. He gets wined and dined (TGP} to promote perspective and invited to the inner ring suites.

He has a very short fuse, though.

Scott Shaver

Only problem with aforementioned points is that not every baptist engaging in cyberspace fits the paramecium-like prototype of his "merry band" of.....

Lydia

I think they need to define racism first.

Scott Shaver

The SBC is the newest partner of the DNC. Can't get our way with our own? We'll ru headlong in the other direction either the Millers of the world nodding in agreement. What a farce.

Mary

The thing about the political classes that a lot of people are finally realizing is there isn't really a difference between Rs and Ds anymore. They both want open borders, socialism like single payer health care, environmentalism, abolishing the 2nd and so on. Moore is as he always was - liberal. It's because people are waking up that you get the Trump phenomenon. People realize that no matter which way you vote the direction of the country isn't changing. A guy like Miller hasn't figured that out and he's just following guys like Moore, plus he thinks he knows something about "racism" because he talked to a black guy once.

Scott Shaver

I mean you haven't heard the slightest peep from our esteemed Southern Baptist ethicists about Hillary and laws for little people.

It's back to cop-bashing and race-baiting.

Lydia

Mary, hit the nail on the head! There is no difference in R &D anymore and people get that. Even the left is split. People are worn out with the entitled establishment who keep exempting themselves from laws they pass and mandate for us.

Moore and co desperately want a seat at the entitled establishment table. They are his people whether they are Hillary or some other Republican candidate. They are Establishment. Hillary is about as oligarchical as you can get. She sells her access. The Clinton Foundation needs to be analyzed in depth. She tried to score political points out of neglecting to help her own Ambassador and his people. She had no shame or basic ethics in her responsiblity as Sec of state.

This country elected a "Christian' Baptist rogue sexual pervert a second time. Moore seems to have forgotten that when he talks about Trump being vulgar. Hilkary is the one who hired Betsy Wright to deal with Bills never ending Bimbo eruptions.

Moore also forgets about Mark Driscoll and his former institutions promotion of a vulgar misogynist pastor who promoted sodomy. And he seems to forget he worked at an institution that has a college named for a pro chattel slaver as late as 1994. Yet, he is all about racism now?

At this point Moore knows that if Trump wins he will be totally ineffective in this position. He really blew it. He was way too immature for this position. And hypocritical.

Mary

We're living in a Banana Republic. We no longer have anything remotely like a free unbiased press. Like Voices is Pravda for the SBC the American Press is the official propaganda arm of the liberals. Combine that with the fact that you have a generation of kids who've been indoctrinated into the idea that all white people are racist all the time and that Jesus was a socialist and the times they are a changin'

Scott Shaver

Here's a verse from Merle Haggard for Moore, understanding that Merle is one of his favorites.

"I went rollin downhill like a snowball headed for Hell".

"No chance for the flag and no chance for the Liberty Bell".

Scott Shaver

Russell Moore in cop bashing mode on 7/7/16, now wanting to hold their hands and sing "Kumbayah" on 7/8/16 in the wake of Dallas.

These guys are making things worse not better with their uninformed, strident and childish rhetoric on "racism".

Mary

Scott, I love how everybody on the news this morning is all "We can't jump to any conclusions." When it's a police officer shooting all the media does is jump to conclusions and after those conclusions prove to be wrong it doesn't matter because the narrative has been set. Facts mean nothing. The usual race hustlers of the SBC will have some nonsense to say but they'll ignore reality and facts. Democrats have to gin up votes and they do it by calling everybody and everything racism.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler

Mary

I know there are other people from St. Louis area who read here:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/07/police-officer-shot-ballwin-missouri-outside-st-louis/


During the whole Michael Brown thing it got pretty scary here - you couldn't go to the local Wal Mart without the protesters coming in, screaming at you and shutting the store down. But this is a whole 'nother level.

Scott Shaver

Mary:

I understand the part of town you're talking about. I used to live on Tower Grove Park at Botanical next to the garden.

Twas a real circus.

Scott Shaver

Have a friend who's wife has a store in the mall at Clayton.

She had to shut down for a few weeks because of what you're talking about.

Mary

Scott, now way! I grew up in a house on Lawrence and Botanical. Rode the bus to Tower Grove Baptist. Went to Sherman.

Les Prouty

Mary I live in Ballwin about 2 miles from the shooting. My daughter works with the officer's sister. Very sad days, especially with the Ballwin shooting piled onto all the other tragic events this last week.

Scott, I agree that Moore et al just need to be quiet. This incessant drumbeat about #blacklivesmatter and cops are racists is making things like Dallas and maybe Ballwin happen. See my latest FB post if anyone thinks I'm a racist. It's public so you can see it.

Mary

Les, my husband and my oldest son both work out that way. And you know by now I'm sure it's not enough to say you're not a racist because the narrative is that all white people are just naturally racist and should just admit it.

It's amazing to me these idiot privileged white people who seem to know nothing about what's it's like to grow up poor and white. Anybody who knows the neighborhood Scott and I mentioned know that that means I grew up poor working class. The police harrassed everybody. I am the youngest of 7 and there was a pretty good age spread between me and my older siblings. When I was 4 my 20 year old brother who had a drug problem was shot in the head and killed by the Police. The story was my brother had a knife that was never produced. We were poor and white so of course nobody cared. I've got lot's of stories about growing up in what is today called a "multi-cultural" neighborhood. Fast forward to today. I live just South of St. Louis City in a neighborhood that abuts the poorest school district in the State of Missouri. One of my sons likes to run and Jefferson Barracks Park/Cemetary are not far. He has at times been stopped by police on his runs. I have had to have talk with him about respecting police, keep your hands where they can see them etc, etc. My husband is as dorky (he contests this description but he wears black socks that he pulls up with shorts) but he's a lily white white as can be dorky guy who loves to go bird watching. He used to get up early to go out to the cemetary which is on the Mississippi. He stopped because the police kept hassling him. Evidently there is a drug problem in the cemetary. I could just go on and on and tell stories of police encounters and what it was like growing up in a diverse neighborhood but the point is these idiot privileged white men seem to have no clue about the socio-economic aspects of police killings/brutality. All the statistics that people throw out about police misconduct are comparing all white people with black people rather than taking out the white people above a certain economic marker. White people who live poor don't see the privilege that everybody is always talking about.
but nobody wants to have an actual conversation, white people are just supposed to shut and nod at being called racist.

Mary

I know a black woman who isn't sticking to the scripted narrative will be dismissed by those white people who are experts on race but here it is anyway.


http://hotair.com/archives/2016/07/08/must-watch-video-stacey-washingtons-message-to-my-black-community/

Scott Shaver

Bullets flying and police cars chasing drug dealers through Tower Grove neighborhoods was a nightly affair.

Had my car stolen twice.

Mary

Scott, we had a car stolen and one of our downstairs neighbors sniffed glue. Lot's of stories.

Les Prouty

Mary, sounds like you had it rough growing up in that area. I know there have been and sometimes are some bad cops. But my experience is way the majority of cops are good guys and try to do the right thing. They have dangerous and difficult jobs. My nephew in Birmingham is entering the force down there later this month. I so admire him.

Scott Shaver

We may not be on the same page theologically Les, but we can definitely agree on the shameless race baiting from guilt-ridden Southern Baptist White-Boy "Leader" Types ala Russell Moore.

You are exactly right, the best thing Moore, Burk and Cross could do for the entire country right now is to take three-month sabbaticals with vows of silence.

"Even a fool is esteemed wise when he shutteth his lips"

Scott Shaver

I'm not denying there may be some bad apples (cops) in an otherwise desirable barrel....I just don't personally know any bad cops.

The young police officer, neighbor and friend who lived across the street from me on Botanical had his life forever changed the last year we were there. He'd been promoted to undercover and almost died in a pool of his own blood from vicious gunshot wounds on a St. Louis sidewalk. This after returning fire and killing the black drug dealer who opened fire on he and his partner, killing his partner ( a young father of two).

Officers name is Gabe Keithley (now retired). You can probably find his story on the internet, even thought its one those stories about fallen police officers that never make "national" attention.

Russell Moore et al wouldn't last a nite on the streets of downtown St. Louis.

Scott Shaver

Ronnie Floyd is another guy who could do the country a favor right now by shutting-up for a little while.

This guy can talk more and say less than any preacher I've ever heard in my life.

Scott Shaver

Mary. When on Botanical I had a friend and his wife/kids who bought a house on the next street over. I told him not to confront any kids at night on the streets in the neighborhood who looked like they were standing around and jimmying car doors.

He asked why? I said "because they'll shoot you no questions asked, it's a gang initiation ritual thing."

A month after their moving in, I heard gunfire from the back alley side of our house and my phone immediately started ringing. Was my new neighbor Louis. He said "I've already called Po-Po, don't come around the corner of the alley because I know you heard the shots and might be headed this way out of concern."

Louis didn't listen.

Outside his den window that night he saw a group of hooded young black guys in their early teens trying to pop the door of a neighbor's car across the street. Louis thought standing on his front porch with a cell phone in his hand while calling the police might deter them from stealing the car. Instead they threw down immediately and fired two .45 rounds in his immediate direction on the front porch.

Miraculously, he escaped getting hit but there's a big .45 caliber dent in the cast iron mailbox by his front door to this day.

Leaves it there as a reminder that hot lead trumps good intentions in St. Louis on a daily basis.

Mary

Les, we are very supportive of police. My son thought for a while about going to the local academy. I'm glad he chose a different path with the way things are going. But I don't hold anything against police for what happened to my brother anymore than I would hold all black people accountable for some things that happened to me personally growing up in a "diverse" neighborhood and attending St. Louis Public Schools. My mother heard one of my other brothers calling police "pigs" at one time after my brother died and she gave him the lecture about not all police are bad.

The point is that idiots like Alan Cross who must have led a very privilege life has no idea what it's like to grow up poor white in an urban setting. I think he's the one who recently wrote an asinine "Dear White People" letter. Racism exists (I've seen it up close and personal) There are bad cops (again because I've personally experienced it) That doesn't mean everything is racism or every time a cop screws up it's because of racism. Some times people screw up. A lot of what is being called "racism" is more about how cops do their jobs in poor neighborhoods whether white or black. Poor neighborhoods are high crime so of course there are going to be a disproportianate number of police interactions. But again those are not conversations we can have. Because there are people who want to keep the segments of society as victims so they can "get out the vote" because the only solution to help "victims" is a federally solution - whether it's schools or policing or health care. Some people believe that an elite few should rule from on high thinking they know what's best for the masses. This is all political. People are easily manipulated.

Scott Shaver

Guys like Cross...Paper preachers Mary...paper preachers.

Their life experience is on paper as well as their latest platitudes.

The comments to this entry are closed.