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Interesting. Thanks for the resource. I was talking to someone the other day who graduated from Oral Roberts 20 or so years ago and had a German Calvinist for Systematic Theology. This person was not raised Calvinist at all. He explained his journey out of that thinking. It was grueling.

I was a bit taken aback that Oral Roberts was teaching Calvinism.


The least of Oral Roberts strange teaching is Calvinism.....

peter lumpkins

You're welcome Lydia!

Like Regent University, ORU probably has a diverse faculty. I don't keep up with them much. I do have a good scholar friend who received his PhD from Regents. He is an excellent scholar presently teaching in a state university...



I was literally "born by the railroad tracks" in cotton-country America; the passing trains shook our little old frame house. My family walked down a dusty road to a Southern Baptist church where I was introduced to Christ, not Calvin.


Oh, I agree Eric. The point is that it was the last place I would have expected that sort of Calvinism- that long ago.

Frankly, I have met several teachers who graduated from ORU who were excellent academicians. And they did not fit my perception of ORU, if you get my drift. Taught me a good lesson, I think.

I do like the idea of a diverse faculty if everyone, including students, are aware upfront of their belief system and it is not covert. It should be a place of thinking not indoctrination.



Do remember the song, "Blessed memories, how they linger..."
That came into my head reading your comment. Gotta go, that song makes me cry. :o)


This is for you Max,



Thanks Lydia. I do, indeed, have many precious memories of my childhood and Southern Baptist roots. For over 60 years, SBC belief and practice has seemed so right, until now ...


Is this true Baptist history?


Scott Shaver


It's Kidd's take on "true Baptist history".

He miserably fails to separate in his historical overview the nuance of "Southern Baptist" history in particular from baptist history in general.

As far as baptist history in general, I would disagree that high calvinism and all its trapping were ever popular with those who saw their origins more closely linked to an anabaptist tradition.

Degrees from Baylor or anywhere else do not automatically remove the theological/historical biases of their recipients.


You know what so many historians conveniently leave out? There were STILL "state churches" in American at the beginning of the 19th century. And yes, they were in the Reformed vein. Of course, there was much more freedom but the point is things were still evolving.

It is not like the individual Puritans who came here could "choose" what they believed. Well, they could and be bannished like Williams and Ann Hutchinson. Or burned like the Quakers.

Do these brilliant historians ever take into consideration how long it takes for such authoritarian and ingrained thinking about God to evolve into thinking as a free people? People were just waking up to the idea of being allowed to discern it on their own. That can take a while. They had generations behind them of obeying the state church and the choices were Reformed variations or Catholicism.

The Puritan descendents pretty much took their freedom to eschew the determinist god to Unitarianism.

History is so much more messy than what Kidd tries to present. Just read this blog for example. If you can find examples of one person/theologian questioning in writing, left for prosterity, the long held ideas of Arminian/Calvinism and presenting interpretations that are neither slated as Arminian or Calvinist, then that negates his premise.

The bigger problem before the 19th Century is most of such "heretical" writings were destroyed. NOt only here but across Europe. The victors always write the official history which is why we must read around the subject matter.

And I am convinced that without Westward Expansion, a lot of this would have fallen out very differently. That changed thinking more than anything.

Scott Shaver


Kidd obviously has networks and alliances with TGC, Acts 29 and the rest of the line-up. Why would certain historians these days not reveal their biases? Especially when it comes to the denominational history of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Additionally, I've noticed that young academics in general these days always seem to want to be the first to pen or analyse something in their respective fields of study .....different and more accurate than their peers and predecessors.

Even if it means intentional bias bleed through in the final product.


Lydia writes "The bigger problem before the 19th Century is most of such 'heretical' writings were destroyed."

Well, of course, Lydia! The magisterial reformers have tried everything they can think of over the ages to snuff out the Anabaptists and free-church.

Scott - you are a "Seer". The things you know are down deep in your knower. What you know, you can't un-know. What you see, you can't un-see. The problem is that the young rebels who are ransacking the SBC neither know or see through a spiritual lens ... only through their intellect and that will fail them in the end.


Scott, DesiringGod is not known for its scholarship but its indoctrination. The lads don't question what comes from Piperville.

Max, I can't call it intellectual because it is meant to 'stop" individual thinking and reasoning. It is ST religion and everything is laid out for you. No Holy Spirit needed.


"... I can't call it intellectual ..."

Lydia, I'm not referring to these folks as intellectuals ... just that they have an intellect (we all have intellects - some better than others). In this case, education/indoctrination doesn't produce one ounce of revelation.

"The lads don't question what comes from Piperville."

Boy, ain't that the truth! The Pied Piper has been taking them (and us) on a ride! These young folks wait for the next one-line tweet from their icons to re-tweet as they twitter their lives away. They feed on Piper Points, Mohler Moments, and Driscoll Drivel. Yes, Pastor Mark is back ... he is making the rounds at churches which have bought into his victim message and new & improved "forgiven" ministry. I swear, American Christians are some of the most gullible people on the planet!


Max, If you have been reading some of Piper's tweets over the last year or so you might be aware that the man has seriously lost it. So many of them have a very creepy sexual edge to them.


Lydia - Thanks for the warning about the Porno Piper Points. Aberrant theology will cause you to lose your marbles after a while. Sounds like the Pied Piper is done, but he just hasn't quit yet.

Scott Shaver

You know, I can honestly say I don't know and have never read this Piper fellow.

From your descriptions however, sounds about par for the pop theology environment we've become huh?


Scott, you are missing out by not reading Piper. Here's an example of one of his recent tweets:

"Don’t put a pretty collar on your sin and call the baby tiger Fluffy. It will grow up and eat you alive."

New Calvinists shout "Wow, daddy, wow!" when he writes deep stuff like that!

Scott Shaver

Sounds par for the age of "Tweakers"... I mean "Twitters" to me.

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