Wesley on insincerity of Calvinism's God offering a call to all

'Addressing Calvinists, [Wesley] notes:

“You suppose [God] to be standing at the prison-doors, having the keys thereof in his hands, and to be continually inviting the prisoners to come forth, commanding them to accept of that invitation, urging every motive which can possibly induce them to comply with that command; adding the most precious promises, if they obey, the most dreadful threatenings, if they obey not; and all this time you suppose him to be unalterably determined in himself never to open the doors for them! even while he is crying, ‘Come ye, come ye, from that evil place: For why will ye die, O house of Israel!’ … Alas! my brethren, what kind of sincerity is this, which you ascribe to God our Saviour?”' 

--John Wesley, “Predestination Calmly Considered,” in The Works of John Wesley (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1872), 10:227. Ashland Theological Journal 36 (2004).

Comments

[Randy]

Wesley clearly never understood biblical, traditional Calvinism. (I don't recognize this neo-Calvinism that you SBC folks are bickering about).

[peter lumpkins]

Hi Randy,

I'm afraid the all-dissenters-from-Calvinism-do-not-understand-Calvinism card can no longer be played my friend. It holds no sway over those who've considered the pertinent theological issues at hand.

Lord bless.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Lydia]

"I'm afraid the all-dissenters-from-Calvinism-do-not-understand-Calvinism card can no longer be played my friend."

Well, thank you. That mantra has reached cultic proportions. It actually keeps these poor guys from thinking.

In case you guys are not up to date, the new position at ground zero concerning the YRR coming out of SBTS applying to churches is they are not the "bad Calvinists" who split or convert churches.... so you can hire them. Oh and they are to be only "preachers" not "pastors".

Ergo, their only job is to preach Calvinism. What a black hole

[Max]

"Oh and they are to be only "preachers" not "pastors" ... their only job is to preach Calvinism."

Lydia, the primary mission of New Calvinism is to put a multitude of young boots on the ground, as quickly as possible, to plant their theology ... and they are doing it best in SBC ranks via NAMB's church planting movement. SBTS graduates are lining up for church plants - it's an easier row to hoe than deceiving your way into and splitting an established traditional church (though some seem to be OK with the weeping and gnashing of teeth approach since they are convinced it's their mission to recover the gospel that the rest of us lost).

I've met numerous YRR "preachers" in my neck of the woods - not many of them would be considered "pastors" (although, their preferred title is "lead pastor"). There's a vast difference between a preacher and a pastor. I'm afraid that much of the church planting going on these days in various corners of American Christendom is more about planting reformed theology, than churches. New Calvinism is spreading like wildfire and taking a generation with it.

[Scott Shaver]

Calvinism didn't work well with dissenters thereof in its own day....much less in the one we're faced with now.

[Lydia]

Max,

Ed Setzer has been promoting the "preacher" only structure as that is what he does in his church plants. Including the ones that failed, I suppose. The KBC here, run by a Calvinist, is promoting it. So the question is why?

I know seeker mega churches used this method early on and it only served to make the preacher a sort of set apart icon. A stage persona. Set apart from others and protected from conflict of any sort so he can keep his image intact. They tend to become sort of philosopher king celebrities. It is weird how people will claim to know them who have not spent more than 5 min with them in convo or even visited their homes. Yet, they think they know them. It becomes a carefully crafted image trajectory. Dangerous stuff.

It also served to make HIS message the most important event of the week for the church which helps build the celebrity image. CJ Mahaney often said his message was the most important event of the week for the church.

Familiarity breeds contempt, you know. So the Preacher becomes a sort of untouchable idol. He does not have to get in the trenches with sickness, death, etc. He is protected from dealing in the reality pew sitters face in living out Christianity. He is admired on stage where he is protected.

It is actually very man centered and is the path to celebrity for these guys. And few of the YRR are actual scholars. They are often regurgitating Piper or other icons.

[rhutchin]

Per Wesley, "...and all this time you suppose him to be unalterably determined in himself never to open the doors for them!"

The gospel is broadcast to all the world. God gladly opens the door to all who respond. That is Calvinism. Just not all of it.

[Max]

"A stage persona ... path to celebrity for these guys."

Lydia, I'm familiar with a young church planter of this sort in my area. A Jay Leno type personality, he grew a small core group of folks to mega proportion (mostly in their 20s from a nearby Christian college) ... more of a crowd, than a congregation. The parent church rented an abandoned factory, built a stage, painted it black, recruited a cool band, and propped up Leno on a stool to spout Piper Points and Driscol Drivel. The young "preacher" succeeded and moved on to bigger and better things ... with his exit, church attendance is dwindling. When the New Calvinism bubble breaks, the greatest mission field in America will be among the disillusioned masses exiting such works ... if we can draw them back to church at all.

[peter lumpkins]

"God gladly opens the door to all who respond. That is Calvinism. Just not all of it." You're darn tutin it's not all of it.

Here's the rest: "God gladly opens the door to all who [He determinately causes] to respond [and unalterably sends to hell those whom He specifically created for that purpose]. That is Calvinism."

With that, I am...
Peter

[Doug Sayers]

How could God promise salvation to the non-elect,for whom Jesus did not die as a definite atonement for their sins?

This type of question haunted me as a Calvinist.

Thanks Peter (Thanks J Wesley),

[rhutchin]

Peter writes, "Here's the rest: 'God gladly opens the door to all who [He determinately causes] to respond [and unalterably sends to hell those whom He specifically created for that purpose]. That is Calvinism.'"

That is true. So, the question we ask is, "Why does no one respond to the gospel except those God draws to Christ?"

Why does God even have to draw people to Christ? Calvinism asked that question and searched the Scriptures to find an answer. The answer found by the Calvinists has been viewed as harsh and untenable to many. However, no one has discovered a different answer.

[Don Johnson]

rhutchin,

Where in the Bible does it say "no one responds to the gospel except those God draws to Christ?