Weekend funny: small church pastor preaches as thousands across the Southern Baptist Convention listen

Times exist when I take myself much too seriously. It happens less now than when I was younger but it still happens nonetheless. Paul's words come to me as an inspired reminder: "I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment" (Romans 12:3 ESV).

Perhaps strict Calvinist, J. D. Hall, might want to join me in remembering the Apostle's humbling words:

Hall's full sermon may be found here.

 

UPDATE #1: Piratechristian radio logged on and safely upped the numbers of J.D. Hall's listeners to 10s of thousands of Southern Baptists! Sweet Georgia peaches.  We poor, ignorant guys in West Georgia just do not know who Southern Baptists' actual influencers really are.

UPDATE #2: Piratechristian could not leave well enough alone. Instead he logged on yet again and upped the number of Southern Baptist listeners to hundreds of thousands!  And just what was the "objective evidence" he provided? His subjective opinion, of course. He cited no sources, no data, no ratings. Just stated an unproved assertion. Unfortunately for him, we just don't accept bald assertions on this site. We insist on more to warrant claims, especially claims which appear questionable such as Hall's sermon definitively had hundreds of thousands of Southern Baptist listeners (200,000 Southern Baptists to be exact).

UPDATE #3: J.D. Hall responded to this little piece on his site. And, know I am perfectly content for interested readers to judge for themselves whether Hall poured you a full glass based on what's been actually said here. By the way, on Hall's thread, two more people claimed they listened to his sermon. Adding them to the three or four here, and the numbers are almost as impressive as the numbers signing up for ObamaCare.

UPDATE #4: Hall now has a quote on his response to this piece by Brannon Howse. I invite readers to take a look to see if Howse offered anything in his comments to overturn what I argued in the thread below; namely, that neither Hall nor Pirate Radio offers any form of substantial evidence to conclude as do they that Hall's sermon had "thousands of Southern Baptist listeners." Howse logs on only rehearsing all the numbers he has for his Worldview Weekend, etc. Fine. How many of those are Southern Baptists and how does he know they listened to Hall's sermon?  For heaven's sake. This is not hard to understand. If one can't offer any tangible proof for the numbers one claims, it seems to me we have not only a right but a duty--at least in some cases--to raise the question concerning the legitimacy of the number.

In addition, Howse goes on to comment on what could only be some type of hearsay as to what I actually questioned on this thread. Why do I say this? Well, he suggests that "some blogger" (presumably that's me) was "claiming that Jordon’s message could not have been heard by many Southern Baptists." Uh?  Why would I do that? And how could I prove it if I actually had claimed something so crass? This is the level of interaction that is all too common in Baptist blogdom. Anyways, I've writtten a short note to Howse concerning his obvious botching of what's been stated here but he has not returned the email as of the writing of this update.

Comments

[Peter]

Peter,
In your original post you stated how "times exist when [you] take [yourself] much too seriously." then invite Jordan "to join [you] in remembering the Apostle's humbling words". My question is, why do you feel the need to include someone else in what you perceive as your sinful behavior?
Further more of all things to point out as wrong in his sermon, why this?

[Andrew Barker]

Scott: I too have been amazed at the response Peter has elicited from his audience. I admit that I also looked at the actual link for the whole broadcast. But I would not like to be seen to be encouraging JD in his 'ministry' so I'm employing the Bill Clinton clause .... "I downloaded, but I did not listen!"

[Clay Gilbreath]

well, Peter, thanks to you I have become one of his "thousands" or "tens of thousands"... I listened last night to most of it (fell asleep after about an hour of his ranting) BUT I did catch JD call out Steve Gaines and Andy Stanley by name, and accuse (should I say ATTACK) them in his speech, and his accusations against them were far worse that that they "stretched the truth." Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel indeed!

[peter lumpkins]

Clay,

Yes, it is a bit lengthy. And, while you mentioned two pastors Hall criticized--and criticized not so nicely of course--there were at least two denominational execs Hall mentioned in not so flattering a way. But since it is Hall and not another, I suppose all his friends here count his practice as holy and not hellish...

[peter lumpkins]

Clay,

BTW, it's now been firmly established by "objective evidence" gathered by independent, unbiased sources that not only tens of thousands but hundreds of thousands of Southern Baptists listened to Hall's sermon! So you joined a movement brother!

[Lydia]

Sorry, but just a sampling of the non thinking that reigns today:

"What's funny is your words you use against Mr. Hall condemn yourself, sir, since you are a small church pastor that blogs to thousands."

So, when have you claimed your "sermons" have been heard by thousands of SBC'ers?

"First, how is it prideful to acknowledge the number of listeners expected for a week? Is that not a miracle from God that a small church could have that many listeners? Is that not worthy of praising God? "

Now, this one claims a "miracle" and is trying to hard to redefine "prideful" by invoking what that movement has decided God likes.

Lots of that sort of thing on this thread. Scary. They had better hope they are right.

Ok, I am already bored quoting...it is all the same really.

JD's swarm of sycophants sound so much like James White they have ceased to have any individuality at all.

What is up with all these declarations JC is speaking for God? That is the thing with that movement that scares me the most. How man centered it is. They cannot make the connection, though.

At least Amanda was honest:

"First, however, I would like to give you a little bit of background on myself. I am a follower of Pastor Hall's teachings so I guess you could call me a part of his "posse," although I much prefer the term student."

God help us all. May Amanda become a follower of Christ some day instead of JD. 1 John says that all believers are given anointing.

The cultish behavior coming out of that movement is chilling. I have given up on them seeing it for themselves. Perhaps someday wisdom and discernment will reign instead.

[peter lumpkins]

Lydia

I think you're essentially correct about the blurred distinctions between Hall and company and White's crowd. Two birds in the nest for sure. And, as I mentioned, I've not experienced swarming on this level since the earliest days of questioning James White. In the beginning, White's "minions" came out in full force but eventually died away almost completely. Now virtually no one comes to White's rescue when he's mentioned. Perhaps they may have discovered that the older generation had learned to think on their own two feet after all ;^)

[Tim Rogers]

Peter,

Well, well, well!!!! Let me see if I got this straight. You post a video calling encouraging a brother to heed a biblical injunction and then you get accused of ad hominen attacks? Not only that but PirateRadio logs on and moves from 1000'a to tens of 1000's? Is PirateRadio in Las Vegas where he believes he is supposed to raise the ante anytime he sees a number? Then to top that one is one claim from a person that reveals that Hall has been in 5 different states in his short ministry? And then to top all of that we have a person attending a church that promotes the J316 Conferences but they are listening to Hall on a regular basis but are surprised that their church does not allow them in leadership positions?

This is not only a "west Georgia hoot" but it is a "eastern NC squeal".

[Tim Rogers]

Peter,

One more statement and I am gone to our NC Pastor's Conference. It seems an interesting way to do math nowadays. We have visits and call them Southern Baptists. Does Hall and PirateRadio really believe that just because you have a conference about Southern Baptists that automatically means that only Southern Baptists listen to the conference? Also, according to PirateNation his "apologetics circle" needs to have something more than their ignorance to discuss. As Norman Giesler told me one time, Let's not sit around and discuss my ignorance bring someone else to the table". :) Very wise advice.

[Piratechristian]

Peter,

Let's summarize.

Despite the fact that Jordan's lecture has been heard by upwards of 200,000 people on both my program and Brannon Howse's program (which broadcasts on 50 terrestrial Christian radio stations), you maintain that because there's no way to objectively confirm that any of those 200,000 people are SBC (other than Brannon Howse himself) that Jordan Hall has arrogantly overstated his claim that 1000's of Southern Baptists will hear his lecture.

Using that logic we must assume that God somehow miraculously shielded or maybe even raptured all of the Southern Baptists in order to prevent them from hearing Jordan's lecture despite the fact that they make up a significant percentage of those who listen to Christian talk radio. But hey, anything is possible and since no one can objectively demonstrate that the Southern Baptists, who faithfully listen to Christian talk radio, were actually listening or downloading my program and Brannon Howse's program we have no choice but to assume that none of them were listening, right? Truth be told, God could have beamed them up to the starship Enterprise and held them in cryotubes until the wave of interest in Jordan's lecture crested. Since, that is possible we must bend the knee to your "logic" and admit that we only know for sure that two Southern Baptists actually heard Jordan's lecture, you and Brannon Howse.

Since your arguments are so "lucid" I feel compelled to ask a few follow up questions. Do you believe in Sasquatch, that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, that Elvis is still alive, that the U.S. Government is responsible for the 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers, that AIDS was created by the Bilderbergs, or that aliens crash landed in area 51?

BTW, the reason why Brannon Howse played Jordan's lecture is BECAUSE he agrees with Jordan's critiques and wanted other SBC members to hear it. I should know because he contacted me asking how he could reach Jordan so that he could play Jordan's lecture on his radio program.

Peter, I don't know what color the sky is on your planet. But back here on planet Earth it's blue.

Unconquerable ignorance, indeed.

[peter lumpkins]

You got it Tim. But remember, Piratechristian didn't stop with "10s of thousands" he called his own amount and raised it to hundreds of thousands (200,000 to be exact). Why, think of it: you and I could actually claim millions of listeners if we start hanging around Hall's supporters!

[peter lumpkins]

Hi Piratechristian,

Back so soon?  Gee, I thought we were through.  But to your credit, you did bring up something interesting.  You conclude:  “since no one can objectively demonstrate that the Southern Baptists, who faithfully listen to Christian talk radio, were actually listening or downloading my program and Brannon Howse's program we have no choice but to assume that none of them were listening, right?”  Uh, I don’t think it actually works quite like that, Chris.  Here’s a link for you on how the burden of proof  works. I thought I’d return the favor since you left me the video and all. Know you’re welcome to share it with all the boys in your “apologetic circles.”  Millions upon millions of my daily readers have already benefited from it.

Now more seriously, unless you’ve got “objective evidence” to substantiate your unproven claim of hundreds of thousands of Hall sermon Southern Baptist listeners, this exchange is settled.

Thanks for participating. I’m going to be at the GBC today, associating in my own circle of unconquerably ignorant people. Toodledo…

[Lydia]

Now Chris,

You could at least thank Peter for posting your persistent "attacks" on him. (I know when your movement writes and says such things, it is "godly" because you hold the keys to definitions. wink)

At least Peter tried to explain how basic reasoning and logic works, to no avail. But you still have not made your case because you have given us no objective data. Is there a little SBC logo by IP addys on your counter? How about Brannon? Does his system track SBC church members? :o)

What is it with the hyperbole and drive to claim numbers..elevating man in the process? You guys are starting to sound like the seekers. (I am quite amused at how many Calvinists are using CGM seeker methods to build their "brand") I suppose that does part does not matter because you have "correct doctrine". :o)

Peter does not have to publish your comments. I am glad he does as it is quite instructive. It is like having a front row seat in how movements and blind followers are made.

[Andrew Barker]

Peter, there certainly seems to be a disconnect between what JD claims about his listening figures and the response on his own site. Here's a copy of the link details for the 2013 RefMT Conference.

Presented at the 2013 RefMT Conference, thousands have heard this message and have requested it on audio CD to copy it to distribute among their friends. You can find the audio for free on the Pulpit and Pen Podcast on iTunes at JD Hall’s channel on Sermon.net. If you choose to receive a CD, the contents may be copied, but not edited.

To date (11th Nov 2013) it has received 72 responses on Facebook, 6 on Twitter and 2 'likes'. So that's 199,920 people who didn't wish to comment then! oh dear! It's funny how stats cut both ways!

[Scott Shaver]

Isn't "PirateChristian" kind of an oxymoron?

[Hobart M. Tucker]

I think men with small minds overcompensate with big hats.

[Amanda]

Ms. Lydia,

Thank you for pointing out my honesty. I do always try to strictly tell the truth. I find that it is much better to tell it like it is rather than twisting truth to lift myself up. I find it quite amusing, however, that you would actually stoop to the level of accusing me of being in a cult and not a follower of Christ. I really do wonder what caused you to come to this conclusion. I know it cannot be that I am a student that follows the teachings of a pastor because that would mean all believers are in a cult. Do you, ma'am, attend church services? Do you attend conferences? Do you read books or listen to sermons outside of church? I certainly hope not, for we do not want you to fall into the trap of a cult. It is quite amusing that you said, "That is the thing with that movement that scares me the most. How man centered it is." This is coming from a person who believes they had a part in their own salvation. Hmm, very ironic indeed. However, I do believe that your constant referral to the doctrines of Grace as a "movement" have taken the cake. This has to be the most amusing of all
considering this "movement" is actually ancient Biblical Christianity. Wow.

Mr. Rogers,

It is evident why you reject the doctrines of Grace since you obviously insist on twisting the words in which you read. Your statement, "And then to top all of that we have a person attending a church that promotes the J316 Conferences but they are listening to Hall on a regular basis but are surprised that their church does not allow them in leadership positions?" is such a misrepresentation of what I said it's unbelievable. First of all, our listening to Pastor Hall had nothing to do with the treatment we received since 1) It was never mentioned to the church, and 2) We found his teachings after the fact. Secondly, I never once said anything about "leadership positions." We were simply frowned upon, ignored, and were not wanted around during any time of fellowship. It had nothing to do with any type of leadership position.

Perhaps you and Ms. Lydia should take her own advice and practice wisdom and discernment based on Scripture instead of discerning based on what you feel to be correct.

[Scott Shaver]

Hey Amanda:

Since when did "Calvinism" become an "ancient" biblical doctrine?.

Wouldn't want anyone to be guilty of "stretching" the truth a little here.

[Lydia]

"I find it quite amusing, however, that you would actually stoop to the level of accusing me of being in a cult and not a follower of Christ. I really do wonder what caused you to come to this conclusion."

Your own words, Amanda. I can only go by your own words. But it is not that unusual. I hear and see such things often these days. Your movement is not a bonafide "cult" but the thinking is cultish. Thought reform. (Calvin is not Jesus, btw. And his behavior suggests he did not even know Him intimately)

" I know it cannot be that I am a student that follows the teachings of a pastor because that would mean all believers are in a cult."

Actually it is what you said about being a "student" of JD and following his "teachings". When do you get to grow up to Berean status, Amanda? When do you mature into the Priesthood of believer? Does JD or some other title get to decide for you? Where is the Holy Spirit for Amanda?

" Do you, ma'am, attend church services? Do you attend conferences? Do you read books or listen to sermons outside of church? I certainly hope not, for we do not want you to fall into the trap of a cult. "

Actually, I would encourage you to study, pray and seek Christ on your own. You seem to be easily influenced by gurus if I go by your words above. I was taught as a child in the SBC to seek, study and pray as a Priest in the Holy Priesthood. That all believers are given “anointing” and we are responsible for what we believe and what we do. Of course, according to NC/YRR/Reformed SBC, that is now heresy. And I will be accused of being Pelagian. Your lot believes we must have god appointed agents who hold the keys to the kingdom for us in some form or other. (The need to control thinking and people in that construct goes back for centuries. Lots of blood shed over control issues by centuries of self appointed gurus)

"It is quite amusing that you said, "That is the thing with that movement that scares me the most. How man centered it is." This is coming from a person who believes they had a part in their own salvation. Hmm, very ironic indeed."

Yes, it is, ironic but in a different way. I am to take YOUR word for it that you know for a fact you are saved?
How are you absolutely sure you are one of the predetermined chosen? Did JD or some other guru declare that for you? How do you know it is not the evil one playing with your mind since you have NO ability to respond or even any volition at all. Not even in sanctification so you are not responsible for your own words here. They either come from God or the Evil One. Amanda has no input, ability or volition. Amanda does not really exist if you think about it but is controlled by either God or the Evil one. Why would I take your word for it since you have no volition or input into anything in your life? Jesus is either obeying for you or the evil one is controlling you. Amanda has nothing to do with it. It is all done for you and to you.

I suppose JD gets special philosopher king dispensation duty so he is able to "teach" you? How would you know? Amanda has no real discernment or ability to discern for herself. God did not create her to be a thinking being. But a controlled being.

“ However, I do believe that your constant referral to the doctrines of Grace as a "movement" have taken the cake. This has to be the most amusing of all considering this "movement" is actually ancient Biblical Christianity. Wow.”

Have I mentioned “Doctrines of Grace” in this thread? What you mean is “Grace” for those God chose before Adam even sinned, but by default, damnation for everyone else. I get that part. Man has no volition at all. Which is why I question how you can really know about yourself at all. I suppose that is why you need gurus, conferences, books,. Etc.

Arguing it is ancient “biblical” Christianity is another problem. That would be like saying Cain had NO CHOICE but to kill his brother as God planned it. Adam was forced to willfully sin and all of these evils so your narcissistic god could glorify himself using evil against His creation. No way, He created us with volition, is there?. That would make Him a wimpy grandpa in the sky. And not a God who is so secure in His own Sovereignty He created beings who can defy Him.

I get it. In my view your belief system is Pagan and that god sounds more like Allah than Yahweh. (And I have many dear friends who believe it but are tolerant of us who don't. Unlike your lot)

Amanda, that is why your words have no real meaning for me. You are off the hook no matter what happens since you don’t need to have any responsibility or ability to control yourself according to the logical conclusion of your strict JD inspired Calvinism whose teachings you "follow".

[Amanda]

Hi Scott,

The Biblical truths of these doctrines have been around from the beginning. God's Sovereignty has actually always been inside the Scriptures. If you would like a specific date, if I'm not mistaken, I believe the cannon of Scripture was closed around 95 AD. Give or take.

[Scott Shaver]

Uh Amanda:

When was John Calvin born?

I'm not asking you about the close of the canon.

[Amanda]

Wow, Lydia. Your nonsensical rhetoric is further proof of your ignorance of these Biblical truths. I suppose what you would really like, Lydia, is a pat on the back. Good job. YOU know you’re saved because YOU made the decision to let Jesus save YOU. Way to go! I’m sorry but I am not that powerful. I do not have the ability to “let” God do anything and I’m sorry you think you do. I do have to hand it to you though, very nice straw man indeed! I would stay and chat longer but I have a cult meeting to get to. The posse decided to get together and thank GOD for saving us wretched sinners. I’m sure you will thank yourself later though. Good day!

[Lydia]

"Your nonsensical rhetoric is further proof of your ignorance of these Biblical truths."

Do you refer to them as "Biblical truths" because JD taught them to you and you are a follower of his teachings? I can only surmise that because of your original comment stating such.

[Scott Shaver]

Amanda:

I'm assuming you have no idea then on the birth and life tenue of one John Calvin.

Maybe they'll bring you up to speed at the "cult" meeting your running late for.

[eric]

Amanda,
This site is hosted by and "mostly" supported by those who reject reformed Doctrine. As your brother in Christ, please do not let one or many responses on this site cause you to sin. For instance, responding to Lydia the way you did. I tell folks on this site the same thing when they falsely accuse me. Christ is clear....we are to love one another. Love Lydia....pray for Lydia, respond the way Christ would have us respond.

[Andrew Barker]

Amanda, by the sound of things Lydia has touched a raw nerve regarding assurance of salvation. For all it's carefully contrived doctrines, one of the main failings in Reformed theology is that it cannot produce any verse to show just who is and who isn't elect. This actually becomes more evident when you consider the amount of time spent by Reformed teachers warning people that things like altar calls and appeals can lead to a false sense of security and thinking you're saved when you're not. They also talk about false confessions where people who are not actually elect make a profession but this will not last and they will fall away. By definition those who do fall away are generally considered not truly elect and therefore they never were saved!

I believe that while most Reformed Christians cope with these tensions, they are always there and in some cases it can lead to insecurity.

Your slagging off of Lydia's position indicates a lack of understanding of what standard Biblical teaching is on this point. The offer of forgiveness through faith in Jesus and what he accomplished on the cross for us cannot be equated with anybody 'saving' themselves. That is just plainly ridiculous.

People who make an informed response to God's offer find assurance not in their response but in God's grace and ability to do what he said he would. Reformed teaching puts election as the prime reason for a person's response to God's offer ie until God changes you, you can't respond. But it offers no support for knowing if God has really changed your heart or if you are just fooling yourself. By bypassing standard Biblical teaching, the Reformed position takes away this sense of security but puts nothing in its place.

Amanda, few of the people who contribute to this blog are ignorant. There are differences of opinion, of course, but little ignorance. Please ensure that your contributions help to keep it that way. :)

[Eric]

Andrew,
Interesting comment that reformed baptist teachings offer no support for knowing if God has changed your heart. I added the word baptist and assume you include us? I'm often puzzled by comments like this because of the dozens of reformed churches I have contact with in South Carolina, not one would teach what you posted. We reformed folks absolutely live a life of victory in Christ with the assurance of salvation.

[Bill Mac]

Andrew: I'm sure there are some Calvinists that believe as you say, but I have to agree with Eric. I see no reason within Calvinism that should give them any less assurance than any other Baptist. If you believe, you're a Christian and therefore elect. It's pretty simple.

"They also talk about false confessions where people who are not actually elect make a profession but this will not last and they will fall away. By definition those who do fall away are generally considered not truly elect and therefore they never were saved!"

With the possible exception of using the word "elect", I have heard this all my non-Calvinist Christian life in the SBC.

[Scott Shaver]

Tim Rogers and Peter Lumpkins:

Understand that I have no problem whatsoever believing that J.D.'s message is being positively received by millions.

I thought I saw him doing a time trail sleigh run for Santa breaking in a new team of reindeer over the skies of Waco last week.

"An Arminian under my bed" for every stocking.

[Paul Owen]

The basic problem with TULIP Calvinism is that nobody can really say for certain that Christ died for me, and for extreme Calvinists, it is impossible to say that God wants me to be saved, since these faith statements depend on the secret decree of election, not on the universal offer of grace in the gospel. As a college prof, I deal with this all the time, students who struggle with assurance because it is always possible that they are just deluded and not among the elect. The Puritans dealt with this problem through their notion of the Spirit's subjective seal of assurance. What I tell my students is to remember that God wants all to be saved, he has certainly died for them (not just for sinners vaguely), and their baptism is the visible pledge of membership in God's family. That is all they need to know so long as they are persevering in Christ to the end.

[Bill Mac]

I do not know many Calvinists "in the flesh" but I have seen a lot of problems with assurance over the years with non-Calvinists. I honestly doubt one group or the other has greater assurance problems. In my case it is people that either can't remember the moment they got saved or are worried that somehow they weren't sincere enough and that it didn't "take". My approach is to ask them what they believe right now. Questions like "what if I'm not elect" or "what if I wasn't sincere" are both silly.

[Andrew Barker]

Eric: I can't see why you've added the word Baptist in your comment since it makes no material difference.

You quoted me as saying "reformed baptist teachings offer no support for knowing if God has changed your heart.

What I actually said was "Reformed teaching puts election as the prime reason for a person's response to God's offer ie until God changes you, you can't respond. But it offers no support for knowing if God has really changed your heart or if you are just fooling yourself. I think that is quite different.

Let me be clear, assurance of salvation can be an issue for both non-Reformed and Reformed Christians. It would be daft to suggest otherwise. What I am pointing out is that Reformed teaching for all its clever theological basis inserts an extra stage into the order of salvation which has unintended consequences.

Reformed theology says only those who are 'elect' can respond. So when it comes to questions of assurance the Reformed convert has an extra question to ask himself. Not just did he respond, but why did he respond and did that response originate from God or is he fooling himself?

All Christians can rest assured on God's word and what it says. But if you insist on changing what God's word says, effectively adding to it, then I can't see how you can avoid this sort of problem.

Bill, your comment was round the wrong way and it demonstrates the confusion which can exist in the minds of many who say that they hold to Reformed/Calvinistic theology. You quoted "If you believe, you're a Christian and therefore elect. It's pretty simple".

Unfortunately Bill, it may be simple but you appear to have got it wrong and it's not what strict Reformed theology teaches. If you wish to hold to a Reformed order of salvation, you are elect and therefore you are a Christian!

So I have to ask you Bill, "are you a Christian because you are elect, or are you elect because you're a Christian? On the face of it, you're not as Reformed as you think you are!

[Andrew Barker]

Bill Mac: I think I may have mistaken your comment for saying that you held to a Reformed view when you don't. My apologies if I've made this error. I guess I would have to modify my comment to ....

"Are we Christian because we are elect or elect because we are Christians?"

[eric]

Andrew,
I added the word Baptist because I wanted to know if you included reformed Baptist in your statement.

When referring to "Reformed teaching" you wrote in part "....But it offers no support for knowing if God has really changed your heart....."

That position is simply not true.

It is also not true (at least in my experience evangelizing folks) that "...Reformed convert has an extra question to ask himself....."

I love evangelizing folks and as such, talk with others who do the same. I have never asked a convert if his response originated from God and don't know anyone who does.

The fact is, if you are a Baptist, we would probably approach folks in much the same manner. ask the same questions, make the same universal call to repentance and faith.

I and all other reformed Baptist will tell every single person (the whole world). Today is the day, repent and believe in Christ and you will be saved.

Not, repent and believe in Christ and you will be saved if your are of the elect.

As Bill said...it really is that simple.

I get the feeling that some folks think reformed teachings keep people from becoming Christians who want to be.

[Mary]

All these words spilled on salvation and I haven't seen anything about the work of the Cross. My salvation was finished at the Cross. The work of salvation was accomplished at the Cross. Nothing needs to be added to it. Faith is not a work, not a work, not a work. I did nothing for my salvation. And God needs to do nothing in addition to my salvation. Calvinists do not believe that the work of the Cross was enough - they add the step of God zapping a person. Jesus paid it ALL.

[Bill Mac]

Andrew: I do consider myself a Calvinist.

The elect are God's people, past present and future, no matter what you believe the ordo salutis to be. I do not consider myself a Christian because I am elect. I am a Christian because I have put my faith in Christ to save me. Frankly I think talking about "the elect" is not very productive. Yes, I believe that God brought me from unbelief to belief.

Let me be clear: If someone "thinks" they are a Christian but are worried that they might not be elect, they have been subjected to some very poor teaching. The same type of poor teaching that drives some individuals to the altar over and over again because they weren't sure if it took the previous time.

The question is: Can one be sure they are a Christian? The answer is of course they can. I have heard of Calvinists who teach that you can't really know if you are saved until you die, but that is false teaching that needs to be opposed, just as teaching that "you aren't saved unless you remember the precise moment you got saved" needs to be opposed.

[Hobart M. Tucker]

"I and all other reformed Baptist will tell every single person (the whole world). Today is the day, repent and believe in Christ and you will be saved."

Eric,

REALLY?

Let's see. Is there one example where this does not hold true?

Hmmm.

John Piper (self-proclaimed double-predestinarian) says that before birth you are predetermined either to (1) go to Heaven, or (2) go to Hell. He is a reformed Baptist and he does not tell the whole world "repent and believe in Christ and you will be saved."

[Lydia]

"This site is hosted by and "mostly" supported by those who reject reformed Doctrine. As your brother in Christ, please do not let one or many responses on this site cause you to sin. For instance, responding to Lydia the way you did."

Eric, I think that is unfair. If God predetermines and is controllilng every molecule 24/7, then Amanda is not to blame for anything written here.

" I tell folks on this site the same thing when they falsely accuse me. Christ is clear....we are to love one another. Love Lydia....pray for Lydia, respond the way Christ would have us respond. "

Why pray, Eric, since all things are predetermined and being controlled? If one prays simply to obey, it seems the rosary or a chant would suffice. But since all we do is predetermined do you think God will change what He has already predetermined because you asked?

And yes, I am well aware I will be told I do not understand the New Calvinism and misrepresent it. I am simply taking what so many are teaching these days to it's logical conclusion. Now, I realize many believe it is all a "mystery" so reason and logic is moot. I don't believe that at all so I simply respond as to the outcome of what I hear over and over from the YRR movement here at ground zero. We are worms, we remain works even if saved as our hearts remain wicked. God has predetermined it all and appoints some specially titled people to lead the rest of us. And if I do not buy into this, then I do not believe God is Sovereign.

[Lydia]

"I do not know many Calvinists "in the flesh" but I have seen a lot of problems with assurance over the years with non-Calvinists. I honestly doubt one group or the other has greater assurance problems. In my case it is people that either can't remember the moment they got saved or are worried that somehow they weren't sincere enough and that it didn't "take". My approach is to ask them what they believe right now. Questions like "what if I'm not elect" or "what if I wasn't sincere" are both silly."

Bill, The problem comes because in the YRR construct man has no volition to even respond. To suggest that humans can respond to the Holy Spirit was deemed heresy. Have you not read SBC Today or Voices threads on this issue?

So without any volition, how would someone know if they are saved or not? They were not involved at all in any of the process. Not sure how one has a "relationship" with Christ in that construct but I am sure there is some greater understanding I simply cannot have becasue God did not predetermine I would have it.

I have sincerenly asked a few YRR SBTS folks this question and was told if I even ask it means I am probably saved because God put it in me to care. If I were not saved, I would not even be thinking about it.

Not sure what you mean by never meeting any Calvinists "in the flesh". Have you ever heard of CJ Mahaney or Mark Driscoll? Or does behavior not matter?
Correct doctrine means one is saved. Not the fruit of salvation?

As to "assurance" I have seen all sorts so bizarre things.
From the seeker world where grace is cheap to the YRR world where Grace has some exclusivity.

As Mary has pointed out, the "work" was done on the Cross for ALL. But "ALL" have not responded to that work.

What is missing out there? Fruit of salvation. Living as the Kingdom right here and now. Something "we" have to do in sanctification with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[eric]

Hobart,

Yes really....

I've read enough of Piper to believe that he would and does call all those who he can reach to repent and believe.

Can you give me a reference that would indicate that Piper would not call ALL men to repentance and faith?

I should be carful in using the words all, everyone, always, etc. Because there are exceptions.

If you can....I will need to stand corrected and rethink my position on the Reformed Baptist Church.

[Patrick]

"Can you give me a reference that would indicate that Piper would not call ALL men to repentance and faith?"

Eric...no, he can't give such a reference. He's simply popping off without any basis in reality.

[eric]

Lydia,
you wrote:
"And yes, I am well aware I will be told I do not understand the New Calvinism and misrepresent it."

I don't know what/who is included in new Calvinism, I'm in the reformed Baptist camp and that's what I can speak about.

I will respectfully submit that folks will respond to you with your quote above, because of some statements you make.

I remember in college, as a new believer, talking with some Presbyterian students about the faith. they would not evangelize because it is pointless, God is sovereign and there is nothing for man to do, they had limited prayer life because everything is predestined...etc.

I'm wondering if your negative views of "Calvinism" have been formed by interacting with "hyper Calvinist"

When you write things such as the following:

"Why pray, Eric, since all things are predetermined and being controlled? If one prays simply to obey, it seems the rosary or a chant would suffice. But since all we do is predetermined do you think God will change what He has already predetermined because you asked?"

Without trying to be unkind, that statement alone shows that you simply don't understand the mind of reformed Baptist teaching (Calvinist)that may be the mind of a hyper Calvinist, I'm not sure. It is certainly not the mindset of me or the other reformed churched I have contact with in S.C.

[eric]

a quote from piper

"Now let me close by reminding you of the almost unbelievable good news in this text. It shows us that even if you are a murderer of the Son of God (v. 36), God himself stands ready to forgive you! And not only to forgive you but to give you his Spirit! In other words he is willing to cancel all your debts and then come and live with you, and guide you, and change you, and empower you.

And for this you cannot work. It cannot be earned, or bought. It is a free gift to all who repent—who turn from darkness to light—and call on the name of the Lord."

from his website under the title
Repentance, Forgiveness, and the Gift of the Spirit

[Lydia]

"Can you give me a reference that would indicate that Piper would not call ALL men to repentance and faith?""

Eric, Just some food for thought on your question. I would say, as one who has followed the trajectory of Piper since the late 90's, the question is moot. Where has Piper spent most of his time, energy and talents over the last, say, 10 years? Speaking to professing believers. Covention halls packed with professing believers whether young pastors, women coming to hear his expertise on gender roles or simply Christendom in general. His focus has been on gender roles or his brand of Calvinism.

I realize there is a different way of viewing this in many YRR circles that are teaching professing believers to "preach the Gospel to yourself every day", so that might play into it. Not sure.

Even his retirement video, filmed at great expense in Geneva, was a promotion for his furture work in converting people to Calvinism.

[Bill Mac]

Lydia: It always seems to come down between what I say I believe vs what people tell me I have to believe.

So without any volition, how would someone know if they are saved or not?

I don't know what to make of this question. I know I am a Christian because I have repented, believed, and confessed. That is how anyone knows they are a Christian, regardless of their soteriology. If anyone says differently, they are dead wrong. Please don't tell me that because I'm a Calvinist I can't know I'm saved.

Not sure what you mean by never meeting any Calvinists "in the flesh". Have you ever heard of CJ Mahaney or Mark Driscoll? Or does behavior not matter? Correct doctrine means one is saved. Not the fruit of salvation?

I'm even more confused by this one. I don't know many Calvinists personally (ie: in the flesh). I certainly have never met Driscoll or Mahaney.

[Lydia]

"I'm wondering if your negative views of "Calvinism" have been formed by interacting with "hyper Calvinist"

It is not a "negative view", Eric. I have major doctrinal and behavioral problems with the prevailing YRR/Neo Cal movement. Most likely more enhanced by living a ground zero where they are churned out like hot cakes.

BTW: Your Piper quote tells me NOTHING about HOW Piper thinks that happens. You left the front end of his ordo salutis out. There is nothing to suggest the Cross was for ALL and God desires all to be saved. It only communicates the most reprehensible can be saved. I agree with that part.

[Andrew Barker]

Eric, I don't want to disappoint you but I don't think all is quite as you seem to believe in Piperland. Sure he will agree that ALL who call upon the Lord will be saved. Now ask him who can call on the Lord's name? I think the answer will come back those who God has brought to life spiritually ie only those whose hearts have been changed can respond. Man in his natural state (according to Piper) cannot respond. It puts a whole different complexion on things.

[Hobart M. Tucker]

Eric & Patrick:

Here's a better approach:

(1) Please name for me one (or more) evangelistic campaigns Piper has initiated in his 33 years as pastor of Bethlehem Baptist, and give the results (even an overseas crusade will do).

(2) On that note, what was the average worship attendance at Bethlehem Baptist by year and how many were baptized during each 12 month period?

If you can track down this information, I can give you a quantifiable answer about his investment in telling all men "repent and believe in Christ and you will be saved."

[eric]

Mr. Tucker,

I cant give and wouldn't give if I could, one or more evangelistic campaigns Piper has initiated in the last 33 years. that is not a qualifier which determines the validity of the flowing statement:

"telling all men "repent and believe in Christ and you will be saved"

I know how often I do what is quoted above and I've never initiated an evangelistic campaign or given an overseas crusade.

Look, I suspect that you strongly reject the doctrines of reformed Baptist (Calvinism), as Patrick said you just popped off. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you truly believe reformed doctrine (Calvinism) is an offense to the true Gospel, and you want to uphold the truth.

My simple suggestion is to please make sure your positions are true. We have plenty of legitimate differences to disagree on without misrepresenting the other side.

If you have any reformed Baptist friends, simply ask them if they promote missions throughout the world and desire for every man, woman and child to hear the Gospel and be given the chance to repent and believe. you will very quickly find out that they do.

[eric]

Question for my non reformed brothers,

Do you ever pray for the salvation of your unsaved family and friends.

and why.

Eric