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2013.02.25

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Max

There is no doubt that Dr. Reisinger was very clear regarding his desire to reform SBC belief and practice. His work "A Quiet Revolution" can still be found on the Founders Ministries' website as a reformation how-to manual http://www.founders.org/library/quiet/

A quote from the introduction of the "Revolution":

"Make no mistake about it. Southern Baptists are at a crossroads. We have a choice to make. The choice is between the deep-rooted, God-centered theology of evangelical Calvinism and the man-centered, unstable theology of the other perspectives present in the convention."

Hmmmm ... sounds remarkably similar to Dr. Mohler's exhortation on New Calvinism frequently quoted in the blogosphere, in which he indicates that reformed faith is the only viable option for thinking Christians. I didn't have a real beef with "Old" Calvinism (I guess because it was such a quiet revolution) until Dr. Mohler fired his shot over our bow ... this Christian then started thinking!

Mary

Max, I think it's also within the Quiet Revolution that you find Al Mohler declaring that really all Christians are Calvinists they just may not have enough Biblical understanding to know it. So of course if one has to be a calvinist to be a Christian it's important that only Calvinists are allowed and seen as qualified for any position of leadership anywhere.

Lydia

I am afraid Mohler is the big elephant in the room no one in the room will dare mention. Everyone keeps pretending he is not a huge part of our present problems. It is so one sided that Mohler can use the descriptor, New Calvinism, but if Hankins uses it thereafter, he is divisive. Mohler can charge his colleagues of leaning toward herey and talk of marginalizing people yet he is on the "unity committee".

Is there really that much of a disconnect with reality or is he really that powerful that our elected leaders fear him?

When the young guys read words like Reisinger and then listen to Mohler is it any wonder they are convinced they have the sole truth and the rest of us have no clue? The problem all along is that they needed the money, infrastructure and toleration of SBC people they think are theological illiterates, to make the SBC Reformed. And because of that....here we are.

Max

Lydia writes "... is he really that powerful that our elected leaders fear him?"

No other single leader within SBC has the power and influence to make or break the SBC reformed movement. He is networked well with non-SBC reformed entities and adored by a growing number of young, restless and reformed Piperites, Kellerites, Driscollites, etc. within SBC ranks. I tossed out conspiracy theories a long time ago, this has been a well-orchestrated in-your-face revolution on Dr. Mohler's part going back to his involvement with the CR and BFM revision. Lesser SBC powers-that-be are between a rock and hard place with the elephant sitting on the rock and squeezing the living daylights out of them at the moment. Will they cry uncle or not?

Lydia

Max, We have been told that Driscoll preaches the true Gospel so all that other stuff did not matter. And then lots of ugly documentation came out from church discipline worthy of a Pol Pot reeducation camp and more from a former elder who was also an attorney and vulgar teachings at conferences concerning sodomy. Now it is, Mark who? Quick change for ACts 29 to Matt Chandler who raved about Driscoll. (Let's hear it for calling for repentance and telling the young guys with Driscoll DNA this is not who we are! Silence)

Then we are told CJ Mahaney is humble like his books talks about and represents what strong leadership should look like. (Nevermind it is a shepherding cult and only a few years back he was People of Destiny and lead Apostle)

The curtain has been parted with sgmwikileaks and the lawsuit "patterns" systemwide of coddling predators even paying their legal bills!

Now we have Piper (who has taught some very hypocritical and confusing things....I will name one: Scream of the Damned) in his Geneva video basically proclaiming himself the 21st Century John Calvin and global apostle. (I think Mahaney will be jealous)

We have tons of angry young men out there who know the truth are in your face if you dare disagree and yelling PROVE IT! Prove what? That your behavior right in front of me is wrong? They have no ability to see themselves or their movement. And a big indicator: They tend to lack empathy because their rightness in doctrine overrides individuals. It is like mass narcissism.

And Mahaney/SGM is embedded and intertwined with SBTS. How can these folks even have him on a stage right now? He basically flew the hotseat coop from Dever's to Mohler's open arms. HE LEFT TOWN!!! But MOhler is totally protected? And to keep it all going they call it gossip to even mention it. so you are in sin. Or you are divisive.

What next? It is the new normal. And every person who has been trusted with leadership now knows this and will be held accountable one day.

It certainly has not looked like Christianity.

I call it the new entitlement mentality. People are looking for a guru to care for their souls and tell them what to believe and to government to care for them physically. So many young men hanging on every word of Piper, Mohler,etc, etc.

Independent thinking is almost extinct.

Mary

Lydia, the latest craze is that the angry young men aren't angry. The are "passionate" But people like you, me and Peter are vitriolic, hateful, antiCalvinists - we're not passionate. So it's ok for people like the one known as "Mr. Unity" to hurl insults like "heretic" and he can just say "I'm not angry, I'm passionate!"

Chris Roberts

Mary,

When has anyone hurled the heresy label? I certainly haven't.

Peter,

The hoot here is that you folks keep returning to Reisinger as (1) someone up to something nefarious, and (2) someone with influence. I still have no real idea who he is other than what you folks keep saying.

Max

Lydia - when you see it, you can't un-see it. What a mess! It didn't turn out well for the children who followed that other Pied Piper. All through this thing, my burden has been with a generation of young folks who are going down this path ... those who wait anxiously for the next Piper Point, Driscoll Drivel, or Mohler Moment. Granted, "traditional" Southern Baptist works have failed to attract 20s-30s. While we entertained them with videos and pizza, the energized reformed movement got their attention with "cultural relevance" and a great multitude are being lured in that direction. As Dr. Mohler says "Where else are they going to go?" Even our local non-Calvinist DOM has surrendered to this by noting that the reformed churches in our area are growing and "at least the young folks are in church again"! Whew!

Mary

Mr. Unity the hoot here is that you keep acting like a few
"anti Calvinists" are capable of destroying the SBC and "kicking" you out, but you deny the influence of a ministry that has been around for 30 years. Those poor fools at Founders, don't they know that their mission to accomplish the reformation of the SBC has been a failure. Don't they know that the rise in Calvinism never needed their help because it's purely organic and all it needed were our Biblial betters such as Mr. Unity who has the ability and the capablity of reading and understanding the Bible better than anyone else ever in the history of Christiandom. If only we had the ability to understand the Bible like Mr. Unity we'd all be Calvinists! He tells us so often!

And yeah historically semi-pelegianism is heresy but since Chris Roberts has declared himself the one and only person capable of intertpreting and defining any and all historical arguments, facts, and terms we're supposed to accept that Mr. Unity has graciously declared HE is not really calling us heretics.

peter lumpkins

Chris,

Correction: the real hoot is that anyone familiar with SBC Calvinists over the last 30 years would be unfamiliar with who Founders Calvinists are, how they formed, who were the original ones who bonded together to form the "Founders Movement" and their undeniable influence in SBC life. Now, just keep saying you don't know who they are--and/or who Reisinger is--Chris. Be my guest. The quote is from a BP article not some cryptic conspiracy source you frequently cite as behind any concerns some of us may have.

Max

Peter,

Chris is echoing what I hear from the SBC-YRR in my area. They don't know or really give a big whoop about the Founders' pioneers or that organization's current cast of characters. Their clock started at the turn of this century with the emergence of "New" Calvinism and its distinct list of influencers (Piper, et.al). While SBC “Old” Calvinists may be opposed to the methodology of their neo-brethren, others in the old guard appear to be putting up with this new brand as long as the essential reformed message moves forward in SBC ranks and elsewhere. The old guys have found youthful energy to carry the torch and accomplish the mission - no need for a quiet revolution any longer.

Mary

Max, what Chris and his buddies fail to understand is that the reason they've even heard of a man named Piper is because the Founder's movement got together and began networking and handing out the Calvinist propaganda at SBC colleges across the country. Piper's books would be gathering dust in some warehouse if it weren't for the early work of the Founder's. But of course the young being young think they just found all on their own, "organically" this shiney new object called Calvinism because they are the generation that is so much better and smarter and more spiritual than any generation before them. Mr. Unity has stated publically that Calvinism is just because his generation reads the Bible. Which just means no one else has ever read the Bible before him - or if they have they were too dumb or lacking spiritually to get it like he gets it. They are superior Christians in every way.

peter lumpkins

Adding to what Mary states, those who give YRR/new Calvinists a platform presently are the very ones catapulted into stardom by Founders Ministries a decade or so ago– Mohler, Dever, Moore, Whitney, Haykin, Nettles, and many other SB Calvinists now giving a platform to New Calvinism.

Max

Peter & Mary - I certainly agree with your assessment of the Founders' influence on the folks you note. My point is that New Calvinism doesn't recognize or idolize FM notables in their movement. They follow Piper, Keller, Chandler, Platt, DeYoung, Patrick, Driscoll, Harris, Stetzer, and others. While Mohler, Dever, Moore and others certainly factor in, the YRR in my area are primarily taking their lead from the list of characters I note. I realize what I just said doesn't hold true for all reformed threads (there are numerous NC flavors and other idols), but I truly believe we are past Phase 1 (the Founders) and well into Phase 2.

Mary

Max, you're point is valid. but maybe the point that hasn't been conveyed clearly is that those the New Calvinists are idolizing wouldn't be where they are without the influence of the Founders. Piper et al would not have the influence they have today without the Founders having pushed their work in the past. No one would know the names Driscoll, Patrick, Chandler et al without the Founders. Ascol used to do way more than he does now before he got struck by lightnening (and if that wasn't some kind of message from God) but by that point he had passed the baton to all the young conference goers.

It's as you say - this is Phase 2 of New Calvinism which now has the emphasis of church planting since they've taken over the NAMB rather than the Quiet Reformation of the local chuches which was so destructive in the 90's into the early oughts.

But many in Phase 2 don't know the history of this New Calvinism which goes back to the Founders.

Lydia

"The hoot here is that you folks keep returning to Reisinger as (1) someone up to something nefarious,"

Isn't teaching that one should go to a non Calvinist church and purposely not disclose that they are Calvinist and plan on preaching that doctrine so they can eventually turn the church Reformed....situational ethics? Do you not get the meaning of "Quiet" "Revolution"? Is something like that of Christ?

His tactics are alive and well today. That is why we are where we are.

" and (2) someone with influence. I still have no real idea who he is other than what you folks keep saying."

He influenced some of your present day Reformed gurus. And his thinking and tactics have permeated one of our seminaries so that now that situational ethics thinking is the new normal. So many young men cannot even see the ethical problem with it. Since they are doing it for the Glory of God, it is ok to fool people? That is the legacy of Reisinger. And it sounds a lot like a political movement to me. Much of history reads like these tactics.

"When has anyone hurled the heresy label? I certainly haven't."

I agree you have not. You have said the trad statement is semi Pelagian but that you do not think Semi Pelgaian is heresy. But you are well aware that many on both sides think it is. So not sure what that is about.

Where has anyone hurled the heresy label? Well, since you don't think it is heresy, then it does not matter others in the SBC do and have written as such? It is not a heresy label to you so when people use that term, it is not an insult to according to your definition.

Check out the older threads at SBCToday from the Trad statement on. Mohler said "leaning toward..." You seem to be the only person I have seen yet that does not think it is an insult.

I am getting to the point that interacting with YRR is like trying to parse Clintonspeak. We are looking for the meaning or definition of "is" or something. There always seems to be some clever angle.

JND

Lydia,

"Independent thinking is almost extinct."

Agreed. Why do you think this is so?

Lydia

"Agreed. Why do you think this is so? "

Socialistic thinking taught in our schools and more and more in our churches. In church, more and more are celebrity/guru focused. Who is the latest guru for us to read or listen to tell us how to believe or what to do. (These days it tends to be Piper even in Non Cal type churches. Years back it was Rick Warren/Billy Hybels in the mega industrial complex)

More and more people want government to care for them physically and for some guru or pastor to care for their soul and tell them what to believe.

Authoritarianism is on the rise in many facets of our lives. I saw it in my corporate training gigs. More and more people were promoted not based on competence or potential but on loyalty to a person. So it was more about amassing power stances in departments than productivity or efficiencies. Then we were supposed to fix the problem.

I am convinced people have no clue how bad it has really gotten out there. I saw a huge marked change just in corporate America over the 90's. What is our new normal? Very little growth. We are seeing that attitude in business and in our gdp.

I personally think it is the rise of narcissism. I think Clinton sort of made it en vogue or normalized it to some extent. That is just my opinion about origins. You need a dumbed down education system to really make it work.

And to make matters worse, I read an article in the online Pravda a while back with the same view about America!

Randall Cofield

Hysteria....

Tim Rogers

Peter,

If Chuck Swindoll is correct, "We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations," you have a great opportunity to educate Chris. Do not pass up your opportunity just because it is brilliantly disguised as an impossible situation. :)

David

Peter, please close down your blog.

Lydia

David, Just think if there was a state church like Calvin's you could make him shut it down and punish him. Which is why some of us are so glad that Calvin's "practices" are illegal today. Did he practice what he preached?


Randall......SGM/SBTS

Donald

Mr. Unity probably really does not know the works of Reisinger. Mr. Reisinger's advice on Reforming the Local Church has become so ingrained in YRR life that it is put into practice without reference to the original manual. For example, Mr. Unity admits (rather proudly) that he told his search committee nothing about his theology unless he was asked directly. He feels no need on the part of a pastoral candidate to disclose theological positions that might be troublesome (e.g. Calvinism, alcohol consumption, etc...). This is all OK because the people in the pew don't understand these issues well enough to properly process that information. He will, simultaneously, argue against the fact that Calvinist pastoral candidates are hiding their Calvinism from churches, and ask for proof. Now, I have sent him names of churches and contact information, which he says he will not waste him time checking out since he could not know if he could believe these folks anyway. The implication being that all of us with first-hand knowledge of Calvinist Pastors damaging or splitting churches (after hiding their agenda) are all lying.

He honestly does not believe himself to be part of the problem. The only problem he sees is ignorant bigotry against Calvinist. This is why, he admits, he uses terms from 60’s racism like “not content to sit at the back of the bus”. He believes Calvinist to be innocent victims.

Mary

Donald, Mr. Unity and his pals over at Pravda are so clueless that they don't realize everything they post just proves all the allegations made against the YRR. I don't know how many times I've tried to tell people on these blogs that there are young fools like Mr. Unity with the attitude that if the church is too stupid not to ask any serious questions than he doesn't have to tell. And now they have a new flaming Calvinist over there who made the declaration that he knew a church committee didn't know what Calvinism really was about so he just point blank told them he wasn't a Calvinist. Yet these same Calvinists scream for "proof" that militant nasty Calvinists exist. They are posting every day at Pravda with the approval of the SBC 2nd VP. Watch how many times an SBC VP attacks those who dare disagrees with him calling them childish and immature and yet he allows the flames and vitriol from people like Mr. Unity all over the place. Oh my bad they're not "angry" they're just "passionate" - of course all response against them are hateful....

Lydia

"Now, I have sent him names of churches and contact information, which he says he will not waste him time checking out since he could not know if he could believe these folks anyway. The implication being that all of us with first-hand knowledge of Calvinist Pastors damaging or splitting churches (after hiding their agenda) are all lying."

Mary, I cannot figure out why folks over there are not demanding names of pastors and people who have led the sinners prayer and they are not saved? They are now using anecdotal illustrations with no proof. Yet, they demand proof from Trads. I am not sure they are able to see their own hypocrisy. I really do believe there is a sort of mass delusion in this movement. What happens when you tell very young men that only they have the real truth and ingrain that in them and then send them out there to "minister" to people?

Mary

Lydia, I noticed some were trying to point out the double standard but the poor dears are so wrapped in their bubbles they don't know how ridiculous they look. It's Pravda after all.

What's a hoot is that these same people who scream that Calvinists are the best evangelist eveh in the history of eveh and that the sinner's prayer is a tool of Satan have no fruit to show from their methods. Are there false conversions in traditional invitations? No doubt. But have there been very real conversions? Absolutely. So on one side we have a team who's methods show 0 fruit and on the other we have a team showing fruit. And yes I know idiots it's God who gives the increase, but isn't it interesting that the increase isn't happen in the YRR churches. The only growth in those churches tends to be lateral movement where all the young Calvinists move around to support each other. At some point they'll have more churches then they have Calvinists to support them if NAMB has their way.

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