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2012.11.29

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William Marshall

Dr. Harwood,
Thanks again for taking the time. We probably disagree on the 'personally ratifying' idea. My take, which is more the federal headship idea, is that we are all 'in Adam' because we are all his descendants. Thus, we are all condemned in Adam because of his trespass (inherited condemnation, at least). Likewise, a person receives the benefits of Christ's righteous act when they are 'in Christ' through faith in Him (which would deny Universalism as well because all do not believe). I assume my views are more in line with Schreiner's and others, but thanks for offering your understanding, that helps me better understand where you (and others) are coming from on this issue.

wm

Adam Harwood

William,

Thanks for your reply. Don't go yet. You give the impression that our views are worlds apart. I'm not convinced. May I ask you to clarify your position?

First, you write: "We probably disagree on the 'personally ratifying' idea." Do you mean that it is not necessary that we personally ratify (receive for ourselves) the work of Adam, the work of Christ, or both?

Second:
1. When you were in your mother's womb, were you at that moment under condemnation because of Adam's sin? If yes, then please read on.
2. By "under condemnation," do you mean that in the womb you were regarded as one who was at that time guilty and worthy of God's wrath and judgement of eternal separation from Him? If yes, then please read on.
3. You write that "a person receives the benefits of Christ's righteous act when they are 'in Christ' through faith in Him." You seem to affirm that guilty people must receive Christ by faith; if not, they will remain lost in their sin and guilt. If you do affirm this broadly evangelical view of salvation by believing in Christ, then please read on.
4. Suppose that you (still in your mother's womb, still worthy of God's judgment, wrath, and eternity in hell) die. Do guilty infants who are unable to receive Christ by faith in this lifetime (in our scenario it's you) enter heaven? If so, how? If not, then I have no reply.

I look forward to your reply.

In Him,
Adam

Les Prouty

Adam,

If I may, until William returns, proffer a reply? Me in CAPS for differentiation.

"First, you write: "We probably disagree on the 'personally ratifying' idea." Do you mean that it is not necessary that we personally ratify (receive for ourselves) the work of Adam [YES], the work of Christ [WE MUST EXERCISE FAITH EXCEPT IN UNUSUAL SITUATIONS, FAITH BEING A GIFT], or both?

Second:
1. When you were in your mother's womb, were you at that moment under condemnation because of Adam's sin? If yes, then please read on. [YES]
2. By "under condemnation," do you mean that in the womb you were regarded as one who was at that time guilty and worthy of God's wrath and judgement of eternal separation from Him? If yes, then please read on. [YES]
3. You write that "a person receives the benefits of Christ's righteous act when they are 'in Christ' through faith in Him." You seem to affirm that guilty people must receive Christ by faith; if not, they will remain lost in their sin and guilt. [YES]. SEE ABOVE] If you do affirm this broadly evangelical view of salvation by believing in Christ, then please read on.
4. Suppose that you (still in your mother's womb, still worthy of God's judgment, wrath, and eternity in hell) die. Do guilty infants who are unable to receive Christ by faith in this lifetime (in our scenario it's you) enter heaven? [YES] If so, how? If not, then I have no reply. [SEE BELOW]

FROM LBC 1689"

"Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word."

SINCE I BELIEVE THAT THE WORD TEACHES MONERGISM, GOD REGENERATING AN INFANT IS NOT A PROBLEM.

Les Prouty

Adam,

One more comment. You say above to William:

"Keep in mind that Paul parallels the work of Christ with work of Adam. If condemnation comes prior to personally ratifying the work of Adam, then does justification come prior to personally ratifying the work of Christ by faith?"

Seems to me this views both the "in Adam" and the "in Christ" aspect in human terms only. As I commented over at SBC Focus where Chris Roberts is reviewing your book,

"Natural birth=imputed guilt. Hence the need to be “born again!” Not naturally, but supernaturally. This is the simple but glorious gospel."

Blessings brother,

Les

William Marshall

Dr. Harwood,
I agree that our views are not worlds apart. They are different (and understand Romans 5:18 differently along with other passages), but they are not worlds apart, sorry if I implied that. I will try and clarify my position by answering your questions best I can.

First, the idea of us personally ratifying, or receiving for ourselves, the work of Adam seems foreign to the context of Romans 5. We are all 'in Adam' from birth. The idea that seems to run through the text (5:12-21) is that we are all 'in Adam' as humans. It is hard for me to see the idea that we are only 'in Adam' when we actually sin. We would agree that we are 'in Christ' when we repent and believe in the good news. Although Paul is making a comparison between being 'in Christ' and 'in Adam' the issue is not so much how we get in but what happens to those who are in, namely those in Adam are condemned and die, those in Christ are righteous and have new life. That seems to be the comparison to me. Likewise, the issue is what Adam has done for humanity and what Christ has done for humanity. Through Adam's action (trespass) we are sinners and condemned. Through Jesus' action (righteous) we are made righteous and given life.

Second, I understand your logical steps that if we believe that men are born condemned, or guilty, then all babies will be judged and sent to Hell. I can only respond with a couple of thoughts. First, just because an argument follows logically that does not mean it is biblical (for example the doctrines of the Trinity or the incarnation). Second, the bible teaches that men will be judged for their deeds (Revelation 20:12-13). Thus, there is a connection between judgment and deeds (which would apply to children, they will not be judged because they have committed no evil deeds), an idea that we probably agree upon (to some degree). Obviously that does not answer all of the questions about the death of children, but since you wrote a book on this topic, I am sure I have nothing new to say that you have not already thought about!!

Hopefully that helps clarify my position a bit. Thanks again for taking the time,

wm

Adam Harwood

Les and William,

Thanks for your gracious interactions and specific replies. The positions you gentlemen described typify a solid and consistent defense of the your interpretations. Although we differ, I do acknowledge that you both described varieties of orthodox Christian views.

I share Les' commitment to neither the WCF/LBC nor to Monergism. Nor do I share his view that an infant in a womb is guilty of another person's sin. As William stated, "the Bible teaches that men will be judged for their deeds." Because I see that truth repeated consistently from Genesis to Revelation, a reading of Romans 5 which imports federal headship is unappealing.

Blessings, brothers. Please keep in touch.

In Him,
Adam

Les Prouty

Thanks Adam. We disagree to be sure. But I think we've done so in a gentlemanly manner. Would that more Christian discourse on these matters be done in the way you have conducted yourself.

God bless,

Les

William Marshall

Dr. Harwood,
Thanks again for the interaction, it helped me better understand your view. Take care brother,

wm

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