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2012.08.02

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Mike

Lydia,
Just a quick question and with no intent other than to know. Why do you keep referring to Mahaney as a cult leader and SGM as a cult? Just state you reasoning and you will not hear a response from me. My intent understand, nothing more.
mike

Christopher Bullard

Lydia,

If you have no problem with Beth Moore preaching on Sunday morning then all I can say is that I will pray that you pay attention better to the pastoral epistles.This is 101.... Good day Lydia and wish you the best. You better not let Emir and Ergun know where you stand on this and most of the Traditional Statement signers and MacAruthur has a great sermon on women preaching and you can find it at www.gty.org

Lydia

Hi Mike,

Been doing cult exit stuff with survivors for years. The cultic tactics of SGM are systematic and you hear the same things from one end to the other. SGMsurvivors.com has been documenting story after story for 5 years now. All the SGMwikileaks docs did was affirm the systematic inbred problems. And it provided proof of Mahaney blackmailing his former partner in PDI over a private confession of sin from his son. IN fact, there is a transscript of a phone call that is chilling of Mahaney literally threatening to make the confession public if Larry did not go along or move on. Tomczak trusted Mahaney.

Also, the history. TAG was the precursor of PDI (People of Desinty) and was born out of the shepherding movements of the 70's most now recognize as cults. PDI and then SGM kept the shepherding parts of the methodology but tweaked their doctrinal stances. It is completely top down. Mahaney was the "Apostle". Only when they started to hang with guys like Mohler did Mahaney drop the Apostle title.

The stories at sgmsurvivors ar documented. Some can be documented with local police concerning the counseling about molestations. Just a sampling of what was systematic: One mother was told to send their teenage daughter away after being raped by the dad so the dad could be "head of the home". Then Noel's story where their 3 year was molested by a teen church memeber. The pastors told the parents they had to forgive and let the church handle it. Do not call the authorities. Thankfully, the finally did. But the pastors told the authorities the teen was only "experimenting" and would never do it again. (It is not a good thing to be a girl in SGM. There is a mindset that is scary)

One of the documented stories involves Bob Kauflin and his daughter who was married off with the "courting" method. The marriage did not work as the young husband wanted to get out of SGM. The daughter could not leave. It is a big mess. That is the "Kerrin" story.

I would agree with you that every church has it's struggles. What is overwhelming concerning PDI/SGM is the magnatude of stories and across the spectrum of stories. The SGM pastors are chosen and trained in a 9 month "Pastors college". What was found was that it was more method in top down structure. These are people who believe in the authorities provide "spiritual covering" for the sheep. They are your Holy Spirit, so to speak.

If you read SGMwikileaks, you will be astonished that Mahaney wrote Humility. It shows his narcissism is complete.

I think the reason so many are circling the wagons for Mahaney is that they agree with his methods. I think the goal is for the SBC to operate more like SGM. Mohler was right out of the gate defending Mahaney's "strong leadership" when the SGMwikileaks went public. In fact, people were told it was a sin to read them. It did show that these were men who had way too much money and too much time on their hands. And it showed how fake it all is.

You can go down the line with a cult method checklist, read the sgmsurvivor site and wikileaks and see it in action...check, check, check.

There is a ton more but I doubt that any true follower of Mohler, Calvin or any other icons will believe any of it. That is how it works and why they get by with being wolves and Nicolaitans. One interesting aspect of this is that CJ personally gave SBTS 100,000 donation. The same time SGM gave SBTS 100,000 donation a few years back. Those donations used to be listed on the website along with others. Now it has been taken down.

This is curious since a guy going to sgm pastors college has to pay and his family live with a supporting family when he goes through. But since sgm lives off a percentage of its family of churches, things are not going well right now. Not sure how many churches are not supporting it anymore. And I am not sure how many churches will continue when the move to Louisville is complete. SGMsurvivors reported that Mahaney was meeting with the pastors of Sojourn in Louisville not long ago. Sojourn is an Acts 29 church plant funded partly by the SBC. They have since declared leaving Acts 29 but all the same people affilated with that mess are listed on their website with sermons. So who knows what is in the works. My guess, from way back, is somehow Mohler is going to partner with SGM financially supporting church plants for SGM since he now owns NAMB.

Dever is up to his eyeballs in this, too. When the wikileaks hit and the scandal of the blackmail among other things came out, Mahaney did not follow the policies he demanded of other pastors. ONe of the SGM policies was that when a pastor was disciplined (and they LOVE church discipline and do it all the time for those who are not "team players") he MUST stay at his SGM church while being disciplined. Mahaney's SGM church was Covenant and Josh Harris the pastor. Mahaney refused to stay there and ran into Dever's open arms. So he violated his own policy for himself and Dever helped him. Mahaney has been totally coddled and protected by both Mohler and Dever. And Mohler is OUR employee. He made his public statement supporting Mahaney and dissing the wikileaks to a local newspaper reporter. The story is online.

Mahaney's son in law was a staff pastor at Covenant. He quit during the scandal and enrolled in SBTS.

If you are truly a Baptist, you will not want SGM methodology funded by the SBC. My suspicion all along is that these tactics fit Mohler to a captial T. It is all about power over people.

My guess is that people who care will care. Others will defend Mohler no matter what he does. That is why they get by with all this stuff.

Lydia

"If you have no problem with Beth Moore preaching on Sunday morning then all I can say is that I will pray that you pay attention better to the pastoral epistles.This is 101.... Good day Lydia and wish you the best. You better not let Emir and Ergun know where you stand on this and most of the Traditional Statement signers and MacAruthur has a great sermon on women preaching and you can find it at www.gty.org"

Is there a spiritual significance to "Sunday Morning" I am unaware of? Is that in Eph, too? Is Wed night ok?

You think Emir and Ergun and the other Trads have a dungeon somewhere for gals like me? Perhaps they could take a page from the Puritans and burn us as witches. (wink) Nah, they are not like that. They would just tell me I am wrong and I can live with that.

I am very familiar with what McArthur teaches as I am with most of what Christendom teaches on the subject. I have pretty much exhausted myself on the subject in study and especially on the word authenteo. What a ride! As to McArthur....In fact, we were told by Phil Johnson at Pyro years ago that his wife does not answer any doctrinal in nature questions from a man whether it is at the park or in the grocery store because that is a sin. Same for Mrs. McArthur. So if a man asked them about Jesus Christ, they must send him to speak to a man becuase they might be teaching a man to answer. Genitals are important in this matter, I suppose. Not "spiritual" truth but gentitals. Ok, I get it. I worship with tons who believe this as they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Amazing though in real life how this is not played out very well, though, in many churches where the priesthood is actually believed. :o)

These types would not do well in the underground church in China where my friend served for years and saw many women imprisoned for proclaiming the truth. Oh well, being fat and comfy in the states is a whole other problem for us. We can afford to believe such interpretations woodenly. It has gotten so bad that women cannot read scripture in Piper's church anymore because it is "teaching men". Challies teaches the same thing.

As to "101" that is the Gospel proclaimed by those who belong to Him. Whether a slave or free. And I certainly do not need your affirmation to do so. Thanks anyway. :o)

Christopher Bullard

Lydia,

Are you the head of the WMU at your church ;) ?

Mary

Good news, in case anyone here has missed it. SBC Today will have a blog aggregator in the future. I'll look forward it. I know there are some blogs I should read that I don't that I'll probably catch off their aggregator.

Lydia, I don't see any daylight between the way SGM churches are structured and the way Acts 29 churches are structured and now it seems the new NAMB churches are just going to knockoffs of Acts 29 without the name.

Lydia

"Lydia, I don't see any daylight between the way SGM churches are structured and the way Acts 29 churches are structured and now it seems the new NAMB churches are just going to knockoffs of Acts 29 without the name.
"

The irony is that a big deal was made years back of Mahaney "mentoring" Driscoll. I kid you not. You cannot make this stuff up.

stan schmunk

Lydia, I appreciate the arguments you're making but your reference to Pol Pot was over-the-top. I've been ministering to Cambodians here and in Cambodia for 28 years and I think a retraction is necessary.

Lydia

Stan, you are right. I was thinking of the roots of tyranny when it comes to ideology and it was OTT. The killing fields wiped almost a whole generation. Please forgive me for insulting you and subsequently the work you are doing with a people who have lived true tyranny. If I care about victims of tyranny I should be more respectful of those who carry real scars. May God bless you for the work you are doing.

Craig

Peter,
There is a strange and troublesome fascination in the Evangelical world with defending and "loving" the homosexual community. For days after the Chick-Fil-A appreciation day event this past week, all I saw were "Deep thinking" Christians who railed against their brothers in Christ for going to CFA to "rally against gays" and what a terrible testimony it was. Really?? First it wasn't about gays but about free speech and commerce. But secondly...when did it become biblical and Christ-like to bite ones tongue about the sin nature of a certain demographic because you want to "show them the love of Christ"? How loving is it to treat gays with kid gloves and not tell them they are heading to the same hell as heterosexuals are and not because they are gay but because they are sinners like the rest of us. In THAT perspective they WERE "Born this way"...just like I was. Stetzer seems to be playing this very card in the Merritt matter. And while it's easy to detest everything that has to do with Hyles and FBC Hammond, it doesn't make it okay to ignore the obvious and ADMITTED sin of "one of us" (from Stetzer's perspective) while laying the smacketh downeth on a hyper-Fundie. More and more I see how spending too much time in micromanaging the Gospel leads to this sort of thing. If Stetzer was consumed with reaching the lost, not the elect, maybe he'd have no time to dote over his pal Merritt. I loved Joe Paterno as a role model and a father figure from a distance. yet he turned a blind eye to a pedophile for the sake of something he considered a "greater good". Stetzer is in danger of playing Paterno to Merritt's vice here if it should come to light that perhaps this wasn't the first indiscretion. Ultimately it is becoming apparent that within the hallowed halls of the church, there remain "pet sins" that are less sinful than others. That's sad and it lends to the suspicions of the outside world.

Mary

Peter, I saw this post over at PRAVDA and it's too good to just get lost and ignored as it will be among those who want to continue attacking and name calling and not actually discuss the real issues. The people screaming loudest for unity are the ones who are fighting against any movement toward unity.


Jim G. August 5, 2012 at 10:02 am

Guys,

All the talk of trying to discern Bob’s motives has deflected attention away from perhaps the best articulation of our problem that I have ever read.

Read Bob’s post again. He is happy with both individual believers and churches choosing their own path. His issue is the entities – those areas that influence others theologically.

Bob is right: Calvinists and Trads will NEVER agree soteriologically. The only way there will be agreement is if one side surrenders its views and that is not going to happen. We can learn to work together and do so amicably as long as the ordo salutis is not emphasized and one side does not try to marginalize the other. Given the history of this conflict, with its roots in Augustine in the early fifth century, the chances of this happening are mighty, mighty slim.

I think there are some things that can be done to allow us to work together, but it might be too steep a price to pay for either side. They are:

1. We must educate ourselves about the various soteriological views and their histories. We must not rely on tired cliches of anti-missions or semi-Pelagian. Those are not true and we must get past them. Similarly, we must stop appealing to Baptist history for proof that one “side” is the heritage of the SBC. Both sides are the heritage. It’s reality. Move on.

2. We must stop accusing each other of wanting to kick people out. That is a deflection that keeps the real issue out of sight.

3. This one will be painful for some. Groups that exist to advocate and spread their particular view of soteriology will have to publicly disband in order to promote unity. I’m looking at you, Founders. If there were a similar Trad organization, it would need to be disbanded too. Here’s the reality: as long as such groups exist, real unity is a pipedream, because the threat of sabotage remains.

4. The Trad Doc needs to be reworked to say what it is for and eliminate what it is against. It is fine to promote what one believes in print. The LBC and NHC are not going away, so the Trad Doc is okay. But it needs to be a careful, well-written articulation of a positive “what we believe” rather than existing to oppose. As long as such antagonistic language is present, real unity is a pipedream.

5. Bob’s fear, and one I share with him to some extent, is the possibility of only one set of views being presented in our seminary curriculum. For example, I am not aware of a Trad theologian at Southern. Here is a way to prevent indoctrination: have every student read the updated Trad Doc and a similar Calvinistic doc (however that works out) and compare / critique them at some point in the seminary education. Make that a requirement for graduation at some point along the way. At the very least, the student will come away with an understanding of the view with which he/she disagrees.

6. We must promote theological diversity in seminary hiring. We should not have all-Calvinist seminaries or all-Trad seminaries. I think the AP is a barrier to diversity and should be scrapped. A president or board that will not diversify its faculty should be publicly censured by the SBC. If the SBC is going to be really “big-tent” soteriologically, the seminaries must lead by example. If they continue to circle their wagons, this disagreement will only intensify.

I think these would help to promote unity in the SBC. Perhaps they are unworkable. Perhaps we are too entrenched. I hope not.

But we need to hear Bob on this post. He has correctly put his finger on the issue. Deflecting it to judging his motives is unhelpful. Let’s work toward a solution.

Jim G.

Lydia

Thanks Mary, I did not see that one. He is so right. Especially number 5. That is called "education". Learning to think. We should not have seminaries indoctrinating one position. We have seen the result of that and it breeds arrogance and ignorance. But the problem with number 5 is that we cannot expect the current leaders to comply based upon what we have seen publicly from some of them. I would not trust them at all. Trust but verify. And we need trustees who are not yes men or awed by the President of an entity.

Lydia

Mary, I went over and read the thread. It is to the point that it just saddens me. The author of the unity resolution has a terrible blind spot. He cannot see his own cognative dissonance as his own words are a constant barrier to unity. Cannot his Calvinist brothers see it?

I personally believe people should simply stop trying to answer him and ignore him. It has gone on now for months with attempt after attempt. He even believes he can frame the debate as in people have to explain in a way HE accepts. So where does he get this idea about himself as the smartest guy in the SBC? Seminary. Or Cemetary as I now call some of them. The interesting part is that this method would get him fired in the real world in no time. Few would put up with it.

But mostly, where is the love for people? (Just as I ask about Mohler and his accusations against his brothers) It breaks my heart this is an example of a "pastor" of an SBC church. I cannot imagine having a pastor like that. To call for unity while still calling what your brothers have explained is a heretic. It boggles the mind. Only Chris Roberts gets to define. No one else. This is the bullification of the SBC.

If this is an example of what we are churning out of our seminaries, and it is in my experience, the SBC is already dead. And another example of "dead" is when they try to stifle dissent by censoring in any method they can find. Call it gossip, speak only to motives of a person because of their position, marginalize people, etc. ONly talk about positive things that they deem are acceptable. I know the drill well. It was SOP in seeker circles to control people and stilfe dissent. Make dissent a sin. And it is an attempt to control people from asking uncomfortable questions. Just call those asking troublemakers. It works. (It should not work in the SBC but I am seeing a new generation indoctrinated to be the "ruling elders" that do not appreciate free speech or the priesthood and think the pew sitters are ignorant rubes they must teach what to think...shades of Plato and his "incompetent masses")

We are just really arguing over who gets the silver without acknowledging it. And that can take years.

Mary

Lydia, Chris Roberts is exhibit A of what exactly is wrong with the SBC along with Jared Moore and some of the others. To think of the arrogance of Roberts going before the SBC to prevent a "Unity" resolution just boggles the mind. The man has not clue one in how to dialogue with fellow Christians. The idea that everybody has to bow down and worship at his superior intellect and pray that maybe he might find you worthy enough so he will stop calling you a heretic. If only we'd all explain things in way that makes us really Calvinist he'll relent and stop calling you a heretic. Notice nothing is his opinion or how he personally thinks he just makes these definative declaratory statements and then goes about his hateful name calling. Chris Roberts has determined that he is the only person in the room who knows anything and men with years and years of education and expereince beyond him are idiots who should kiss his ring.

But yeah Dave Miller allows nonsesne by these little boys and then how dare Peter say a word against Jonathan Merritt! That must be silenced at once!

Now as far Jim G.'s suggestions? That's going nowhere because according the Calvinists in the SBC like the ones at PRAVDA Calvinist never do anything wrong. Unity will come when Trads shut up and continue letting our superiors like Chris Roberts continue with their efforts to reform the SBC.

Jeremy Crowder

Johnathan M. has admited from my understanding that he had a homosexual encounter. It was not a rumor or gossip it was the truth. I believe truth is an acceptable defense in a court of Law and should be an acceptable defense among Christians. Peter linked to a person making credbible allegations that the person promised could be proven and Johnathan M. admits to it. There is no gossip or rumor here. This is just an attempt to muddy the waters by shooting the messenger.

Mary

Anyone keeping score - Ed Stetzer is back over at PRAVDA where he obviously refused to answer direct questions regarding the "contentious" statement he made.

Also of note the new "satire" post. Notice at PRAVDA that "satire" that goes against Calvinists made most recently by Rick Patrick seems to be completely missing in the archives. When it was posted it was posted with comments closed. Because those Calvinists, including Dave Miller love them satire sooooo much that they wouldn't have been able to handle all the comments a "satire" mocking Calvinists would bring at PRAVDA. Just goes to show some "satire" is meant strictly as a way to attack at PRAVDA and some "satire" the Calvinist don't "get". Just another day at PRAVDA. You cann attack the right kind of people at PRAVDA and call it "satire"

Lydia

After what I have seen with Setzer's "selective outrage" on sin concerning Merritt and Schaap, I would not trust any curriculum he is part of editing and promoting. In fact, I do not trust Lifeway at all for many reasons. And I wish he (and Trevin Wax) would stop "branding" themselves using other people's time/money. It is unseemly. Less Ed, more Jesus, please. But it has been helpful in some ways. The more they blog the more we can see their "situational ethics" or selective morality beliefs.

Lydia

http://sbcvoices.com/peter-lumpkins-time-out/#comments

Wow, the Merritt's are truly the "untouchables". Must be the old standby, "Touch not thine anointed" if they are one of ours.

First, we have the enviromnental manifesto that Jr wrote and many big names signed, then we have the whole SBC is lying about homosexuality and is homophobic at Huffpo then we have a Merritt using his position as pastor to promote a church wide Multi Level Marketing business that eventually went bust over fraud! Now we have affirmation from Jonathan he had an improper encounter with a homosexual. But that outing was off limits to mention.

Wow. It pays to be a celebrity that is liked!

Yep, big "time out" sin to discuss any of that because they are Merritt's? Sheesh! can we get any more obvious over at Voices?

Can you say, "situational ethics"? Some forget how big of an influence Bill Clinton has been on our country including large parts of Christendom. Right is wrong and wrong is right. Good is evil and evil is good. Ok, I get it now. It is a sin to mention it.

Mary

"situational ethics" bingo!

Some sins at PRAVDA are worthy of multple rants (are they still going off on Land?) and then we see the sin of homosexuality and it's all unicorns and daisy's and how dare you not be kind and let the church handle it on their own - don't interefere with autonomy! Of course if Merritt were anybody the people at PRAVDA had a problem with - imagine if this were the son say Vines, Patterson or Rick Warren and oooh watch post after post denouncing and calling out the sin.

And the pure blazing hypocrisy on the "satire" they choose to affirm is mind boggling. Calvinist love to "laugh" at those they attack on a day in day out basis. Let someone post a "satire" against the Calvinist and Dave Miller knows he'd better keep the comments closed because Calvinist don't really have a sense of humor - they only like to attack and call it "satire."

mike lee

Lydia,
Thank you for your response. Sorry it took me so long to finally get to it. I had no idea that your response would be that long.

I must say that I have greatly admired CJ and love to listen to him. Since there are two sides to every story and since I think it is only fair to CJ/SGM, does anyone have "their side" so that I might be able to form a balanced opinion (that is if one is needed)?

Mary

For all those oh righteous and holier than thou folk at PRAVDA. Notice the glaring hypocrisy of raking Peter over the coals constantly here and the fact that Dave Miller is allowing a link to an anonymous attack blog, a blog that calls Lydia and me, Peter's "girlfriends"

Peter has shown with this blog post the blatent hypocrisy of Stetzer - it's ok to gossip about certain sins especially if the sinner is no one linked to the SBC elite. And PRAVDA continues to push their usual propaganda showing that they don't care about anything to do with the right thing by allowing an anonymous blog link to be posted for the all the world to see. Some VOICES are more equal than others.

Lydia

"I must say that I have greatly admired CJ and love to listen to him. Since there are two sides to every story and since I think it is only fair to CJ/SGM, does anyone have "their side" so that I might be able to form a balanced opinion (that is if one is needed)?"

Mike, His side is on platforms and in pulpits in many conferences and churches and for many many years. I always find it interesting that people think they "know" the talking heads and find it hard to believe any nefarious things are giong on backstage when story after story and even transcripts from 1st person come out. sgmwikileaks are email documents. Perhaps it would take CJ admitting much of what is in sgmwikileaks and on survivors is true? Don't hold your breath.

You are not alone. Most of Christendom is so enamoured with their icons they don't believe any negative truths either. I always feel so sorry for the wounded from their cults as it is revictimizing them when people refuse to believe their experience is true.

It is why we have so many who are so fooled. I saw it all the time in my work with megas and thought: If the pew sitters knew what went on behind stage the place would fall like a house of cards. But I knew they were never meant to know and when stuff came out in dribs and drabs, people thought they KNEW the talking heads on the platforms personally and would not believe it. They equated their charismatic and folksy persona on stage to who they thought they were. But they did not know them. They know a persona. A stage act. It is the way celebrity works. It is Christian Hollywood. And it is a huge shame.

This actually says more about the followers and fans than it does about the wolves and hirlings.

Lydia

"For all those oh righteous and holier than thou folk at PRAVDA. Notice the glaring hypocrisy of raking Peter over the coals constantly here and the fact that Dave Miller is allowing a link to an anonymous attack blog, a blog that calls Lydia and me, Peter's "girlfriends" "

I missed that one. But it is typical. That is how they play. Another good reason to warn folks about giving their money to the CP. This is the sort of depth we are churning out of our seminaries and churches.

Dave has never been consistent no matter how much he pleads to the contrary. I have been astonished at what he rebukes and what he ignores. He does not seem to know his own mind. His words and actions do not match.

Lydia

Mary, I went and read the thread. Now they are going after Peter's pocketbook. That is where it always ends up...trying to ruin people...and Dave goes right along. They are not happy until they ruin anyone who can think and ask the right but uncomfortable questions. I have seen it for years from those who revere their celebs.

The message to people: Don't be a thinker. Don't ask uncomfortable questions. We will tell you what to think and we will call anything else, gossip, rumor=sin. That is how one controls sheep and stays in control. Right out of the playbook.

Mary

Lydia, I suspect the reason the signors of the Trad Doc were removed is because too many of the signors didn't realize that the Calvinist play dirty - they will go after you at your church, at your work, anywhere and everywhere if you dare say boo against Calvinism.

Notice the idiocy about edification - while Dave allows an anonymous attack link to be posted. Edification means attacks against people Dave doesn't like are acceptable.

peter lumpkins

Mary,

Yes, and our good old Jared is over there sprouting his usual nonsense he could not make stick here. He did his best to make a case for my alleged spreading a "rumor" here. He left with his tail tucked between his legs. Now he's over there boldly declaring before the world, "Peter sinned." He gets away with it in his cozy community. It's cowardly shenanigans like that which worry me silly about what kind of church my grandkids are going to inherit when so many young pastors seem so incapable of making ethical sense.

With that, I am...
Peter

Lydia

"Lydia, I suspect the reason the signors of the Trad Doc were removed is because too many of the signors didn't realize that the Calvinist play dirty - they will go after you at your church, at your work, anywhere and everywhere if you dare say boo against Calvinism."

Trust me, I know this quite well. They play very dirty AND with deception and then say, "prove it". Seen it. Why do you think I am very much into protecting and advocating for victims of spiritual abuse. It is rampent out there. The last thing they want is for people to actually think for themselves.

But what do we expect considering their definition of total depravity? They are not responsible for their actions. It was decreed and since they are elect, it is not really sinful for them. Only when others ppoint out the obvious or question something they like, is it sinful. They define. And it is part of the Calvinist tradition to silence dissenters of all stripes.

Mary

Peter, they're doing their self-righteous dance in the thread linking to the anonymous attack blog where Lydia and I are called your "girlfriends" But somehow they are better than you and you are the bad guy? A whole thread who's whole purpose is to attack you and attack your few supportors is somehow "edifying?"

Lydia

Here is a perfect example of the "non thinking" and deception that goes on over there from our "unity resolution" guy:

Chris Roberts August 6, 2012 at 8:47 pm

Jared,

And as it goes, the rumor is not true. The claim was that Merritt is gay. Peter wondered if Merritt’s true inclinations had been “outed”. Merritt himself said he is not gay, though he has sinned (without getting specific) in the past. Thus, what Lumpkins suggested turned out to be untrue."

1. It was not a rumor. It was a FIRST person account which was public.
2. A heterosexual has a "homosexual encounter" but is not homosexual? Perhaps not. There is a third option: Bisexual.

But the problem for Chris is that a straight up heterosexual does not even think of having a same sex encounter of any kind as an adult. It would revolt them.

3. The gay community considers him gay and that is why he was outed after his supposed one encounter. And that was his big mistake thinking he could trust them. Those guys play for keeps.

Chris is reaching on this one and ignoring that Jonathan Merrit has lived a lie IN MINISTRY, taking money from pew sitters and followers BEFORE he was outed. He did not step down and come clean as a person who has worked hard to make himself a sort of celebrity in Christian circles. This goes way beyond the local church because he has put himself out there beyond the local church as one in ministry to teach others.

Chris, Setzer and others ignore that part. Let us go back and read Merritt on reaching out to the homosexual community and his interview with Mohler saying the SBC has been homophobic and wrong about homosexual inclinations not being genetic and we have lied about homosexuality as a convention. How do those words sound now?

Peter when you asked those questions on the convention floor to Mohler, you had no idea the can of worms behind it.

peter lumpkins

Yes, I've known about the hate site for some time. I've been told who's behind it but there's no real way to know--except the fact that they are cowards, knowing their ideas and insinuations could not stick in any honest exchange. That's why they hide behind their safe curtain. They can make any charge they like with full impunity.

And yes, SBCV will continue to allow degrading comments for anyone they do not like. The truth remains: I'm hated for the stances I've taken and the no-nonsense linking to the people I criticize so people can make up their own mind. And, those like yourself and Lydia among others who agree with much of what I say or at least appreciate the fact that I give you an opportunity to speak your mind about it will continue to garner insults. For that I am truly sorry. Neither of you deserve the degrading characterization they're implying.

And, truth be told, I think they are doing a little 'payback' to you because many of them have been sent home from this site squealing like a little whipped puppy because you do not back down from their attempted intimidation. They are used to lording it over women. They're supposed to "protect" women not be criticized by them. They cannot believe you have the audicity to not take everything they say as if the Apostle Paul himself was speaking! Hence, when you look them in the eye and speak your mind, I think they kinda get their pride jolted a bit.

I appreciate you, Lydia, and a number of other commenters here.

Lord bless.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Lydia,

You are exactly right!

With that, I am...
Peter

Lydia

"Lydia among others who agree with much of what I say or at least appreciate the fact that I give you an opportunity to speak your mind about it will continue to garner insults. For that I am truly sorry. Neither of you deserve the degrading characterization they're implying."

We could find a ton we disagree on, Peter. And we have. What I appreciate is you are the only one asking the hard questions and pointing out the non thinking and illogical shenanigans that are so obvious! I will admit to being one of the few people over at Voices that really liked old Joe Blackmon. Remember him? Was it because he was charming and nice? no. It was because Joe said what he meant and meant what he said. You knew where he stood. He was consistent! He was not deceptive or played games with twisting words or parsing the words of leaders. And that is valuable in this day of situational ethics and selective outrage in Christendom. And I disagreed with him a lot. But I knew where he stood. We have so little of that anymore. People getting caught then honored, deleting tweets, etc. It is Driscoll all over again who was the master of that sort of method.

The always agreeing with one side or the other has very little to do with it for me. I do not surround myself with people who only agree with me. How boring. When I had a large staff I never surrounded myself with yes people. That is not excellence or even smart business. Just like I like to play tennis with someone better than me. It sharpens the iron.

But I cannot stand the wobbly wishy washy girly men who play both sides or those who think so highly of themselves yet play deceptive games with words or with truth/logic while attempting to lord it over people with their ridiculous definitions of what is sin and what isn't. Who told them they were so important that people should pay them to be listened to? And we are churning them out in record numbers. This is what our churches are becoming: Don't dare question the anointed leaders. It is simply not Baptistic.

Jesus is not their model. Calvin is. And they do not love truth. Sunlight is a great disinfectant.

Craig

Beth Moore got dragged into this?? I went into Lifeway yesterday and they were busily building the "Beth Moore Wing" to house the books she spits out like Tribbles. (If you're working Beth Moore into this I'll drop a Star Trek mention) My issues with her start with the shrill sound of her voice. On the other hand it IS nice that all her sermons are pre-packaged for the hearing impaired. I was amazed at how many topics she can cover. Her manual on rebuilding the GM 700 R-4 Automatic transmission was especially helpful.
Sheesh folks!

Lydia

Craig, Please do not get me started on Beth Moore. She is about as deep as the Lenox candy dish on my piano. My favorite was her study on Patriarchs and her summary questions at the end on Abraham.

I paraphrase the gist of one question:

If you were attending a baby shower for Sarah, what present would you give her?

Yes, this is what women stand in line for. What they scalp Beth Moore tickets for (and they do-- was a huge problem for us in one mega)

But if you dare try to blog concerning any of her shallow teaching, (such as her claiming Hebrews taught "self" confidence) the wrath of perky women in Christendom will rain down on you like sulpher.

Mike

Lydia, in regards to CJ and SGM it is clearly evident that they cause your blood pressure to go out the roof. Something that you might consider to help alleviate this problem is to... rub some bacon on it.

Lydia

"Lydia, in regards to CJ and SGM it is clearly evident that they cause your blood pressure to go out the roof. Something that you might consider to help alleviate this problem is to... rub some bacon on it. "

LOL! If all the spiritual abuse by the all charlatans and wolves out there affected my BP, I would have been dead long ago. But I have good news. I read recently I might
have been promoted to an officer--a lieutenant! I did not think such things could happen to women in the SBC!

peter lumpkins

Lydia,

You mentioned the enormous amounts of money C.J. Mahaney has given to SBTS.  Fortunately I have both copies of the TIE which demonstrates the amounts. I uploaded them to my site.

The TIE Spring 2006

The TIE Spring 2008

I used the numbers in a post I wrote here on C.J. predicting he would be president of the SBC in 2010. Of course, he was not nominated. But neither was I serious. Just funnin…

With that, I am…

Peter

Mike

Peter and Lydia, Im not sure if you have read this or not but I dug it up, and personally, I am quite confident in this boards conclusions and recommendations. http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/file.axd?file=2012/1/Reasoned+Reports.pdf
Lydia I agree with you in that CJ screwed up. However he is not God. He is a man and because he is a man, he screwed up and will continue to screw up. Sometimes his faults will be worse than others... just like yours and mine are.
Regarding his actions, there has been repentance and confession of sin by those involved (CJ as well as others involved) and reconciliation has been pursued.
I firmly believe that CJ is a man of God and a humble one at that (though he may not always walk humbly). I know that he has greatly influenced men like myself and I thank God for him. I pray that he continues to seek the Lord's will and that he continues to grow in grace.
I know that you guys do not agree with me and that is OK. How you respond is up to you. You can do so gracefully or not. The choice is yours.
Blessings

Pamela E. Bennet

I wouldn't bother to listen to anything Ed Stetzer has to say. Check out his connection with ABWE, a mission board who covered up for the adulterer and pedophile Dr. Donn William Ketcham. You can verify this on bangladeshmksspeak. He only cares about sex abuse if it isn't in his camp. Full stop.

Lydia

"Lydia I agree with you in that CJ screwed up. However he is not God. He is a man and because he is a man, he screwed up and will continue to screw up. Sometimes his faults will be worse than others... just like yours and mine are."

Mike, He takes good pay to tell others how not to be screwed up. So when can we expect paid ministers not to "practice" sin? All you have done is convince me he is not someone to listen to. I need to learn from people who are as screwed up as he is? I think not. We disagree on the level of screw up and the long term conistency.

I recommend reading Jesus and listening to the Holy Spirit. They will ever let you down or screw up consistently.

Your "how you respond" tactic does not work with me. I am more concerned with CJ''s vast amount of spiritually wounded people than I am with him. Some are victims of molesters who were protected by SGM He is a charlatan.

mike lee

Lydia we should not expect ministers to "practice" sin. I didn't say that. Those are words you put in my mouth. What I said is that you, like myself and CJ are sinners and that we should expect that we will sin.
The reason I am satisfied with the link I gave you was because it seems clearly evident that CJ has no intentions of "practicing" sin and that he has seemingly clearly repented of those sins and seeks forgiveness and desires to reconcile those damaged relationships (time will tell). This is a mark of one who seeks to follow and obey Christ.

Lydia, the only one who has convinced you to not listen to him is yourself and that was long before this conversation began... I have had nothing to do with that.

No we do not disagree as you suggest. You said that he was a "long term screw up"... not me. Those are "your" words. They are not mine. Again, you have put words in my mouth and have built a false argument. If you are going to speak for me, then do so fairly and accurately. Do not intentionally misrepresent me. That is not OK and it is certainly not something a person who follows Christ is to do.
Do you realize how proud and arrogant your statements towards me are? From your response and the tone of your response it seems very evident that you too would like to be added to that short list of who to listen to based upon your lecture to me. How righteous you are to point me to listening to Jesus and the Holy Spirit!
Last, my "how you respond" tactic worked. It caused you to pull your lips back and it exposed you for who you are. Lydia, you may be smart. You may even be someone of high standing in the Baptist world. One thing you are not, is kind and gracious. Further more, what is sad is you are proud of it.

selahV

mike lee:

at times, Lydia can be quite assertive and a bit aggressive in her tone. However, her heart is broken over the repetitive spiritual abuse and hypocrisy she has seen and is privy to in ways you will never know. This is not something that happened once upon a time and is no longer going on. It seems almost viral among many evangelical churches today. It's scary. It's sad. It's prophetic to the last days. And few people who could speak out about it, are. She will continue to speak as she does because she is unwilling to let men in high places dictate the mantra and the melody of every song.

I truly think you are a man who seeks after God. So does Lydia. And she speaks for many who cannot speak for themselves and is pointing fingers at some who have records that prove them to be untrustworthy. I, for one, am thankful. Even if the manner in which she speaks is not the manner in which I would speak. We're all going through the sanctification process, ya know?

Maybe, at times, her intolerance is speaking louder than sensitive ears (or eyes), can hear or see. I do not know. But Lydia, and other ladies I know, have come to see that most men have a desire to silence most women in debates which question the authority some men have. I think, due to her vocation, and her knowledge of things you cannot know she knows, you may not appreciate her in-your-face style. She scares me at times. But she is one tough lady; and where she lacks in kind and gracious speech, she makes up for in devotion, loyalty, integrity, honesty and pure grit.

I pray God blesses you, Mike, in mighty ways as you grow in Christ and seek to honor him in all your ways. I pray the same for myself and for Lydia. May we all be quick to listen, and slower to speak. selahV

Lydia

"The reason I am satisfied with the link I gave you was because it seems clearly evident that CJ has no intentions of "practicing" sin and that he has seemingly clearly repented of those sins and seeks forgiveness and desires to reconcile those damaged relationships (time will tell). This is a mark of one who seeks to follow and obey Christ."

Mike,

They would get out of ministry. Period. They are disqualified. In fact, when the wikileaks docs hit (nevermind the surivivors blog which had been documenting abuses for 5 years) Mahaney fled to Dever. And Al Mohler said this would not keep him from speaking or leadership. The wagons were circles and they brought out their buddies to firm him up and then SGM PAID AoR for a "report" that was clearly dismissive of serious problems.

One "practices" sin for 30 years in a shepherding cult (nevermind how they dealt with predators/victims within their camp for all those years?) and that should not require stepping off the stage? The difference is our definition of 'what is sin' and what is a "wolf".

Mike, the Mormons tell their women to "be sweet". But a few have decided to stand up to that and flee the cult. Same with SGM. Some decided not to "be sweet" as to their definition of shutting up and allowing the leaders to be their Holy Spirit. They went to the police, instead. And for that, I am thankful. Molesting a 3 year old girl should never be thought of as "experimenting" for a 16 year old. And that is one story out of hundreds. Or telling a mom to send her teen daughter away after being raped by the dad so he can be the "head of the home". Or blackmailing Larry Tomzcak over his son's confessions.

Repentence for Mahaney would be stepping down and repudiating his practices.

Lydia

Thanks, selahv.

I go back to this question: How does one deal with "Christian" bullies? Wolves? Over a long period of time when you see words, actions twisted, excused, ignored, etc?

I pray for the day when spiritual abuse victims are loved and cared for as much as the celebs are loved and cared for now. But they could not spiritually abuse anyone without followers and their money. The irony is great.

It is a good thing I don't care about popularity or make my living from followers!

Lydia

Mike, After all these years in Maryland, have you asked yourself why SGM moved to Louisville recently after all the information became public about the inner/behind the scene workings and the horror stories of abuse concerning SGM? Are you aware that the flagship church, the one Mahaney pastored all those years, left SGM? and others are following suit.

His buddies at GC/T4G who blurbed his books, wrote forwards, shared stages and promoted him for many years are simply circling the wagons. Why? Because they agree with his authoritarian methodology. Remember, Mahaney was another one of Driscoll's celeb mentors a few years back.

mike lee

SelahV, I appreciate your kindness and integrity in how you have responded. I must say that I disagree with you on this, at least for now. But because of the grace and respect that you have shown me, I will step back and reassess things and submit to your wisdom.
Thank you

mike lee

Lydia, I will submit to Selahv's wisdom and reassess the perspective that you have given me of yourself.
Honestly, due to us living in a Western women's rights world, the lens I see you through is one of a lady who has a chip on her shoulder; someone who carries a sword of revenge. Case in point, in an earlier discussion between you and I, you immediately assumed that I was, as least in some way, a, to use my words, a male chauvinist. I was not trying to get you to quiet down and "make you act like a lady", as in you need to get in your place.

I suggest that followers of Jesus are to display fruit. This is not something that I have seen from you. What I have seen is meanness. I have seen vindictiveness. I have seen gracelessness. I have seen you do character annihilation. I have seen you brag about these things. I have also seen you clearly misrepresent (intentionally/unintentionally)others (myself included) and put words in others mouths and made them say things they have not said. That is why I put little stock in these "evidences" you have given regarding CJ.
Now I must add that clearly I have not walked in your shoes. I do not get to see your daily life. You very well may be known as "the Jesus lady" in your neighborhood due to the fact that your light shines brilliantly among those you live around causing them to give glory to God...
But that is not the case here on Peter's blog. I have yet to read anything you have said, and said to myself, "God is great!" As I stated earlier, I have yet to see grace, peace, mercy, love, forgiveness etc... from you.
Again, because of SelahV's graciousness, I will step back and rethink some things.

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