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2011.04.06

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Randy

So what are you saying? That our seminaries should reflect what the people already believe? With that line of reasoning, according to a recent survey 4 out 5 Christians believe in an alternate way to heaven, surely some SBC members were in that survey, should we teach pluralism just because our people believe it?

With all due respect, most Southern Baptists in the pew have never been exposed to Reformed teaching, haven't a clue what it is, how can they flat out reject something they've never examined.

Moreover, how can students reject or embrace something they've never been taught. I say teach all views of doctrine and all forms of baptism with guest speakers who faithfully reflect what they actually believe and not have a bunch of hacks who think they know what they're talking about. If you simply teach the Word, you have nothing to worry about...or to paraphrase, "If it's of God, who can stop it? If it is not, it will fail."

R.L. Adler

"most Southern Baptists in the pew have never been exposed to Reformed teaching"

how do you know this? there's been plenty of data provided here that people DO know and have chosen the historical view rather than the newer 'reformed' view of salvation.


"If it's of God, who can stop it? If it is not, it will fail."

it has been proven to fail. i look forward to you investigating it for yourself though.

peter lumpkins

Randy,

You ask, "So what are you saying? That our seminaries should reflect what the people already believe?"

Well, yes and no, and I'll do the 'no' first. No, I most certainly was not suggesting our seminaries should reflect what the people already believe, if by that you mean to suggest most Christians believe in an alternate way to heaven. I don't see what "most Christians" believe or don't believe have to do with what Southern Baptists teach in their self-funded schools. I welcome your explanation. Recall I specifically mentioned--twice--the theological principles we hold dear That should give you a gauge to judge about what I was referring.

So, YES, our own CP funded seminaries should reflect what the people already believe. In fact, as I mentioned above, that was the very question we raised beginning in 1979, a question specifically about the nature of biblical revelation and how Southern Baptists had answered the question.

Finally, you write: "I say teach all views of doctrine and all forms of baptism with guest speakers who faithfully reflect what they actually believe and not have a bunch of hacks who think they know what they're talking about." Well, I say that's nutty.

With that, I am...
Peter

Max

Peter -

Thank you for staying the course with your blogs over the past years. You've been faithful. Folks are starting to get it.

For your readers who have not been exposed to Reformed teaching, nor the methodology of this new breed of young, restless and reformed (YRR), I offer the following observations of what YRR pastors and their churches look like in my area:

•Lack of passion for the lost to repent and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior; few or no altar calls; “Gospel-centered” ministry implies reformed belief & practice; to them, Calvinism is the gospel and the cross only effective for a predestined elect

•“Born again”, “personal Savior”, “accepting Jesus” are not in their vocabulary

•Lack of salvation sermons or evangelistic (revival) preaching … “circle A to learn about Jesus” is not preaching the Gospel!

•Too easy on sin, making light of rebellion … little or no call to repent … being “culturally relevant” pushes moral boundaries

•The sacraments of communion and baptism take on a whole new meaning … “sign up for baptism on Facebook!”

•Use of the English Standard Version (ESV) Study Bible (this is one of their marks to identify each other, kind of like the fish symbol) = Calvinist commentary

•More emphasis on teaching/preaching from the writings of Paul, than the Gospels (especially, selected passages in Ephesians and Romans when stretched support their theology)

•Lack of participation with other churches in evangelistic campaigns … evangelism to them is “harvesting the elect”, not reaching the lost

•Very "missional" minded … however, their missions are intended to plant reformed theology churches which plant reformed theology churches, etc.

•Membership covenants often refer to "historical biblical theology" as a core value (= Calvinism to them) … the revised Baptist Faith & Message (2000) gives them wiggle room to defend their theology

•Moving their church to elder rule (a way to control the church's message & mission in the hands of a few like-minded reformed elders)

•Focused on creating the "true" church (young reformers feel they are at the front of a revolution to return the church to its "real" roots – they are serious)

•Followers of the Resurgence movement (Mark Driscoll and his Acts 29 network to plant reformed theology churches) – growing number of A29 churches in SBC

•Primary “influencers” are John Piper (Bethlehem Reformed Baptist Church, Minneapolis), Mark Driscoll (Acts 29 Network), Al Mohler (Southern Theological Seminary), Tim Keller (Redeemer Presbyterian Church, NYC) … reformed pastors monitor their blogs daily/weekly – always looking for the next “Piper Point”, etc.

•Utilize social networks (FaceBook, Twitter, etc.) to link with other reformed folks

•Actively recruit reformed believers in their communities to their ranks

•Target young believers who have been disillusioned and/or discouraged by traditional works … mobilize them via small group ministry … stress “community”

•Use/abuse contemporary Christian music to attract young worshippers (watch out for Calvinist lyrics from popular reformed musicians!)

•Always dropping a quote or recommended book to read by Calvinist authors (in their blogs, sermons, or coffee shop conversations) = indoctrination

•Emboldened by their influencers, these young pastors feel they are at the front of a “revolution” (resurgence) to restore Southern Baptists back to their theological roots (which they believe is reformed theology)

•Matt Chandler & his Village Church (Texas) are their model … they borrow from his methodology and teachings in their works … they follow his ministry closely

•They will call other Calvinists to join them on their church staff (to achieve like-minded elder control)

•They will methodically employ a strategy of "converting" members to the Doctrines of Grace (small group studies, recommended books, sermons slanted toward “systematic theology”)

•As the circle widens, the movement grows bolder within the fellowship (they come out of the closet!)

•Tendency towards a highly logical systematic theology where all the questions about life and God have answers and fit neatly and nicely into a theological box (4 or 5-Point Calvinism, TULIP, Doctrines of Grace)

•An appearance of being "elite", "we have the Truth", "we are the chosen ones", lots of arrogance and pride in their ranks

•They love to write and blog about their reformed theology and/or refer you to writings and blogs of leading reformed teachers

•Tendency to use their pastoral authority against any member that questions their reformed theology or direction

•Tendency to be elusive and evasive about their theology

•Will cover their tracks if exposed (will present a salvation message or altar call every once in awhile if they feel challenged … a deception to appear mainstream while they transition their church to reformed theology belief and practice)

There is mixture in the SBC camp. Can two walk together except they be agreed?

-Max

Mary

If the Calvinist on the internet are an indication of what Southern/Southeastern actually teaches about nonCalvinism in the SBC then they are intentionaly being taught the caricutures, lies and misrepresentations. It's very rare to see a Calvinist on the internet accurately portray what an SBC nonCalvinist actually believes and it pretty much is always an older Calvinist non SBCer but definately not of the YRR. Just gander at a current discussion regarding the "sinner's prayer" for an example of someone who continually demonstrates zero understanding of what a nonCalvinist in the SBC believes. Clue - we're not Finneyites, but enjoy playing with all that straw and all the YRR who are so great at attacking us older clueless just barely saved SBCers who are footing the bill so we can be mocked and ridiculed by those taking our money for their education.

Mary

Max, methinks you've been around a few Calvinist in your time! The other thing that really bothers me about the YRR is their emphasis on works all under the guise of "fruit" Guess who gets to define what "fruit" is? Look at this quote which I think demonstrates a works based salvation.


"The fruit thus reveals the sincerity, if it’s there, while actually saying the words of the Sinner’s Prayer possibly reveals nothing! God knows; but the person praying does not know until the fruit is evident."

I know I'm saved because God's Word promises that those "who confess with the mouth and believe in the heart" are saved. God saved me! It has nothing to do with me or what I will or won't do. But these YRR have all these checklists to "prove" to themselves their salvation. The Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are Sons of God Romans 8:16 Nothing about fruit that men want to define. Though fruit - that God gets to define will be evident. Calvinist have taken this "by your fruit you know them" and made it into this "we the Calvnist are the ones who define and know what fruit is" I'm afraid there are a lot of souls walking around lost believing they have a relationship with Christ based soley on gnosis. There are a lot of people who look to the world to have "fruit" but have never had a heart change through Christ. They are so convinced that salvation has to be something really difficult and "mystical" that the very clear words of "confess with your mouth and believe in your heart" can't possibley be all there is to it. Of course if salvation is available to all men then that means they're really not as special as they think themselves.

William

Most people in the pews have not, thankfully, been exposed to the current version of SB calvinism and those who have exposure often have been exposed to calvinist-driven church disasters.

Your view is a macro view, mine is micro. About 15 years ago I began to see and hear of rabid calvinist pastors coming into a church and absolutely destroying it. I don't so much hear those stories today.

I draw no broad generalizations about calvinist pastors, we all have our anecdotes, but I know enough to advise churches to scrutinize candidates on this basis.

Mary

William,

I think less damage because of Calvinism is happening now than only a few years ago because there are so many of us who witnessed it first hand and are able to advise caution to those seeking to fill staff positions. There are still Calvinist who are trying to "hide" their Calvinism in their interviews but a lot of churches are aware of the way Calvinist will try to dodge certain questions and are able to discern the true heart of an applicant. Of course once the Calvinist is exposed he'll sputter that so many people don't understand Calvinism and it's for our own good that they hide their soteriology from us.

To me it is not a coincedence that Calvinist have been exposed for their deceptive and destructive practices in entering churches and are therefore finding it difficult to obtain staff positions at nonCalvinist churches and this new emphasis on new church plants over and above supporting and helping existing churches in Great Commission Work.

Eric Opsahl

Max, Max,Max,

That indicates a level of "I can't believe what I read". If, in fact, that is what you have encountered, i suppose i get why you are so opposed.

I do find it hard to believe.

I'd like to know what reformed circles you run in, because many, many of your charges are baseless in my circles. I know many, many reformed Churches.


Mary

"If, in fact, that is what you have encountered"


It's amazing to me that Calvinist believe they can just out and out call people liars for sharing what they've experienced at the hands of Calvinist. What this attitude says to me is that Calvnist think there system is so far superior that it would be impossible for anyone to use it to abuse anyone and not only that but people who don't buy into Calvinism are guilty of bearing false witness. With these attitudes there will never be any discussion. Until Calvinist are willing to own up to the damage that has been done to countless churches all in the name of "reformation" or at least Calvinist are willing to admit that they DON'T KNOW ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING THAT HAS GONE ON IN EVERY SINGLE CHURCH over the last few years so maybe they haven't a clue what's actually gone on there can be no discussion. Churches have been destroyed, split, damaged because of Calvinism and this dismissive attitude of Calvinist has nothing to do with Christ. Some factions in the SBC, some VOICES seem to think it's ok to stamp there feet and proclaim "I haven't seen it personally therefore I declare it to have never happened." It's amazing that claims of certain types of "victims" are readily believed, but victims of Calvinism are dismissed. Shows the true hearts and intentions of some to simply push there own radical agenda which has everything to do with hating the SBC and therefore declaring that the SBC needs to be fundamentaly transformed and nothing to do with actually helping any "victims" and spreading anything but rabid Calvinism.

John

I've been in a fewCalvinist and mostly non Calvinist churches and have never seen where it's caused such a big division. All have been both Gospel centered and evangelistic. I would suppose, though, you could have one side lambast the other, but to me this would be a power and control issue, not a Calvinist/non Calvinist issue. I have seen enough control and power obsessed leaders to know that I don't really care whether they're Calvinist or not. I just head the other way.

Eric Opsahl

Mary,
You wrote a very emotional response, I don't dismiss what you wrote. It is, after all, how you feel. You don't need to be angry - as it appears, based on words you chose to use. As a "Calvinist" I'm not your enemy (you wrote ".. but rabid Calvinism).

I would respectfully ask that you re-read your note in response to mine and think thru what you said. For instance when you write: It's amazing to me that Calvinist believe they can just out and out call people liars for sharing what they've experienced at the hands of Calvinist.

First, you don't need to assume the worst in people. In fact, I would argue that scripture commands us to think the best of fellow believers.

I never said Max was lying, I never intended to imply he was lying. However, I did mean to write "If, in fact, that is what you have encountered". Have you never been in a group of friends talking, someone speaks and you or someone reply's " oh come on...you can't be serious". you didn't just call your friend a liar, did you? Only someone looking to pick a fight would think that.

I don't have any reason to think Max is making his list with the intent of lying. I don't have any reason to think he doesn't believe what he is saying. I do however, reject some of what he is saying when he writes.

•Lack of passion for the lost to repent and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior;
Not true in the many Reformed Churches I know

•“Born again”, “personal Savior”, “accepting Jesus” are not in their vocabulary
Not true in the many Reformed Churches I know

•Lack of salvation sermons or evangelistic (revival) preaching … “circle A to learn about Jesus” is not preaching the Gospel!
Not true in the many Reformed Churches I know

•Too easy on sin, making light of rebellion … little or no call to repent … being “culturally relevant” pushes moral boundaries
Not true in the many Reformed Churches I know

Please give me the name of One Reformed Baptist Church which would teach what was stated above. I don't think you can do it.

peter lumpkins

All,

Those who appear skeptical that aggressive Calvinism has wrecked good solid churches should get out of the house more. I know of three solid churches in Georgia recently pillaged by Calvinists. This is really not new. Founders Ministries entire strategy in their "Reform" manual is built upon stealth.

With that, I am...
Peter

Max

Hi Eric –

With any new movement, there is an extreme fringe which will manifest itself in time and place. Thus, I qualified the list I provided noting that “I offer the following observations of what YRR (young, restless and reformed) pastors and their churches look like in my area”. It’s great to hear that this does not characterize reformed works in your vicinity! I can only speak with what I see from my vantage point, as you have noted about the circle around you. What is in my knower, I know … what I see, I can’t un-see. I do not lie, knowing that the last chapter of the Book warns that those who “loveth and maketh a lie” will be found outside the gate.

In all fairness, I should note that the YRR churches I am familiar with in my neck of the woods have been influenced by and/or affiliated with the Acts 29 network. Thus, I guess we should add a few more “R’s” to the acronym … resurgent, revolutionary, rebellious and radical … YRRRRRR. It is refreshing to know as I ruminate on your remarks that the reformed in your area are more refined. Unfortunately, we are dealing with rebels on this end … who, in some churches, have not been honest to pastor search committees about their reformed leaning and ended up breaking old shelves like a bull in a china shop. I am not trying to make this a bigger deal than it really is, nor portray this as a national dilemma. I’ve described what it looks like here. May this new breed never find their way to your circle.

With that, I am done …

-Max

Max

Thanks Mary. I sense a kindred spirit that is both broken and burdened over this issue. It's time to pray ...yep, it's come to that!

-Max

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