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2010.10.09

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Darby Livingston

What's your take on these kinds of conferences? Is this an endorsement? No provocation. Just wondered what insight you have on such things.

sãoray

First Redeemer Church is forfeiting their 501(c)(3) status? (or maybe they have already)

A.M. Mallett

501(c)(3) status does not prohibit political/ideological activism. The prohibition is against using charitable contributions for political activism in support of specific political candidates or lobbying for specific legislation. The designation is not a cap on political free speech.

Debbie Kaufman

AM to keep a 501(c)(3) status there are prohibitions on certain political activity or involvement.

peter lumpkins

Darby,

A fair question for sure. Personally, I am a little uncomfortable with some of the meetings albeit without getting bent sideways like some critics who charge more vibrant Christian patriots like R. Lee with idolatry. He fairly engages the cultural issues and wholeheartedly affirms Christ is Lord over every sphere of life including the public square...

sãoray,

I don't think so. Lee has been doing these type conferences a long time. Moreover, consider AM's important point...

Debbie,

FRC's conference is *not* a political rally though the platform has decidedly rigid political ideologies. No candidate is being promoted for a public office. And, all of the speakers are robust Christians, including Ann Coulter.

AM,

Your point apt...

With that, I am...
Peter

sãoray

Peter: "No candidate is being promoted for a public office."


That's like agreeing that the emperor has new clothes... ;)

Debbie Kaufman

I agree with Soray. And following Ann Coulter as a Christian makes about as much sense as the Glenn Beck rally. I believe it is a form of idolatry. The only answer is Jesus Christ and not for the purpose of transforming culture as it is transforming the heart of stone into a heart of flesh. Building the Kingdom of Christ, not the Kingdom of Southern Baptists. That is only done by Christ and the Gospel. We can't legislate morals, how do you expect non-Christians to believe and behave? We can give the truth of Jesus Christ. That is lasting change.

Mary

"We can't legislate morals". Huh? Tell it to the slaves. Oh wait slavery along with Jim Crow laws were legislated against. I'm sure the "Man/Boy Love" groups will be really happy to hear "We can't legislate morals". Liberals think we can't legislate morals really mean we can't legislate PC morals but hey let's legislate thoughts of criminals against certain groups and call those thoughts Hate. Why is the bullying of a gay student worse than the bullying of a straight student- it's the thought according to the thought police. Any idiot who doesn't get that all this "hate'" crime legislation isn't coming after the preacher calling homosexualty or even abortion a sin needs to go hang out at the Daily Kos for a while. If we can't legislate morals then we live in anarchy. The question remains as to whose morals will be the ones legislated.

Just for the record anyone who actually knows anything about Ann Coulter knows that she "preaches Christ alone by Faith alone. Of course she's not PCeee cool. Who knows what Glen Beck actually believes but his "morals" are actually those of what we say we as Christians can affirm. Except for his gay stance but he's a little too Liberterian for my taste.

Mary

And let me clear that this argument that Christians are not supposed to be involved in civil issues - Christians were the impetus for the abolition on slavery and Jim Crow laws. The issues we face today are Do parents have right to teach their children homosexuality is a sin and not have the school tell them their parents beliefs are "intolerant" and "hateful". There are a lot of issues that we simply cannot sit out just as our brothers and sisters before us stood up against the immorality of their time.

peter lumpkins

sãoray

No, that's like making a particular statement corresponding to what one knows to be the case. Now, if you are aware of other factors I overlooked which demonstrate the contrary--that is, that particular candidates *were* promoted--speak up. If not, volleying back a one-liner may sound good on your end but I assure you it offers no contribution to the thread...

Debbie,

Some have a particular gift of making complex ideas very simple. I've always admired them and wish to learn from their skills. Others have a Spirit-endowed knack for making abstract propositions into practicable principles for daily life. Again, I admire gifts like these and want till my dying days to mimic those whom God blesses this way.

For some reason, the knack too often on display in your comments is making ideas into morally personal insults, spewing out judgments on people's faith, their integrity, their life all by remote control, at a far, faraway distance. You know not a scintilla concerning the personal faith of Ann Coulter but thump it aside as quickly as one thumps an ant from a picnic table. Your ignorance does not seem to stall you in your tracks one bit; you go right ahead and pronounce her faith as senseless, even vile, not to mention implicating those of her faith's ilk as idolaters.

Here's my suggestion, Debbie: go to your site and express all the vile you wish about those you know exactly nothing about. On the other hand, don't show back up here making personal judgments about people you obviously have exactly jack squat to go on.

I realize I'm not so nice right now but I nevertheless hope I am clear.

With that, I am...
Peter

Oh, btw: P.S.--read very carefully Mary's contribution on whether 'legislating morality' is a reasonable--even biblical--proposition...

Tim G

Peter,
I think your last comment put a lid on that jar and sealed it for eternity.

Some people...!

Back to the post - I was wondering when we would see some energy and effort is awakening the sleeping Christians in America. Glad to see Dr. Lee is still doing it!

peter lumpkins

Tim,

One thing is certain: too many Christians who express privately their concern about our public square in America are unwilling to express that concern publicly via the poll booth. Out of 65m self-described evangelicals, less than half actually vote. That is a problem.

Nor is the problem eased when believers wail out loudly, "morality doesn't legislate" or "Christians should stay out of the political process." Surely there is a proper balance between a Constantinian vision on one hand and an Amish vision on the other.

Grace Tim. I trust things are well in the beautiful Tennessee mountains.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

BTW,

Dr. Lee has taken a pounding for his role in these particular conferences, especially by those who take Greg Boyd's view on the "Christian state." Notable is the beating by many for Lee's editorial role for The Patriot's Bible. The YRR particularly are incensed when they discover The Patriot's Bible consistently outsells The ESV Study Bible on Amazon. What a double West Georgia hoot!

With that, I am...
Peter

Mary

Tim G. and Peter, it's disturbing to realize how many Christians have no clue that across the country States and Municipalities are chinking away from our religious freedom. For instance in California an employee (ie the Catholic Church) is required by State Law to provide contraception coverage if they provide any prescription drug coverage at all. Now I don't agree with the Catholic view on contraceptive use but this was a case about whether the church could get a religious exemption - the exemption in the law only exempted organizations whose employees all affirmed the same religion, the Supreme Court refused to take up this case so the Catholic orginazations in CA do not offer prescription drug coverage. In Washington DC the Catholic Church can no longer participate in adoptions because the District changed law saying any adoption agency could not refuse to adopt yo gay couples. Those types of
cases are working through courts all across the country. There are cases all across the country making it ok to teach "tolerance" of the homosexual lifestyle in school even taking away a parents right to opt out. There are battles being fought over religious opt outs for pharmacist who don't want to provide abortificient morning after pills. Obamacare gives the HHS person the authority to decalare that any hospitals that receive any federal funds ie Medicare or Medicaid must offer women full "reproductive" services including abortion. There are efforts across the country to make homeschooling illegal and to try to have more control over Christian Schools. People have no idea the fights that are being fought across the country. Some Sunday morning in the not too distance furture they're going to show at church where gay couples are coming forward for membership and your church won't be able to refuse them because you had to travel on state and federal roads to get there. These are incrediable spirital battles being fought right here right now and we are losing because we think God doesn't want us to get involved? All I can say is Come Lord Jesus, come quickly.

sãoray

Peter, I chose the 'one-liner' for efficiencies sake (it could say so much more in so little time). Let me try again-

It's highly obvious that these rallies support folks with an (R) next to their names.

^ hmmm, just doesn't have the same ummph =)


in legislating morality, when are we going to re-enact adultery laws? when we do, let Newt Gingrich (the self-proclaimed hypocrite) know ahead of time so he can skip the country.

Yes christianity was the source for abolition, but if you look closer you would see that there were many christians who were on the other side of the issue.

In the big picture I believe Lee's crime is promoting Deism. If anyone who knew about his bible took the time to do any research, they would see that though most of the founding fathers used the bible as a tool for moral control, but they were not convinced that Jesus is Lord.


btw Peter, I really enjoy you blog, long time reader third time commentator.

Mary

Saoray, not only were some Christians on the wrong side of slavery but 'gasp' horror of horrors Southern Baptists were on the wrong side of slavery. Since we can't legislate morality we'll just dump laws against murder, robbery, rape and incest, drug laws (ie CA) - save the state a lot of money.

Newt is a hypocrit to the empteenth degree and not qualified for any public office. He's a bad messenger but that doesn't mean the message is wrong.

peter lumpkins

sãoray

Thanks for the explanation.   Albeit I still do not see the connection between your ‘oneliner’ you composed—which, by the way, I have a fondness for but lack the necessary skills to pull off—and the original application, know I really appreciate your taking the time explaining. 

Now, as for being “highly obvious” the “rallies” about which you speak “support” the “”R” candidates, I cannot tell.  What I can affirm is the Restoring America Conference I attended did not.

Second, as for re-enacting adultery laws, I hope not anytime soon.  For if we legislate based upon our Lord’s definitive act of screwing it down tighter still—that is, upon NT revelation—forget Newt.  Every male species would be serving back-to-back life sentences!

More seriously, your assertion I’m afraid, assumes no distinction between those believers who are concerned with restoring a moral America and others who mistakenly want to impose biblical law on America (i.e. theonomists). I, for one, do not want an America based on biblical law any more than I want an America based on Islamic law, or secular humanist law, or ethical relativism. (as a sidenote, nor is it relevant that Christians have embraced varying ethical views (pro-abolition/anti-abolition)—especially when the moral constructs were not explicit but implicit. What is most relevant here is that Christianity self-corrected itself, is it not?)

Now, as for Dr. Lee’s crime, you assert, “In the big picture I believe Lee's crime is promoting Deism.” Interesting.  So, Dr. Lee is an anti-supernaturalist, promoting a raw rationalism which negates the miraculous, and believes the best religion is a natural religion? Is this what you’d like to argue? I’m sure this would be a surprise to him. But not any more than it surprises me, since I’ve heard him several times preach, had numerous conversations with him, and not once have I ever got the impression he was “promoting Deism.”  Tell, me, have you any specific statement in mind that Richard Lee has uttered, or are you just reasoning this out a priori  based upon what you have gathered from other sources? If the former, please indulge me; if the latter, well…I suggest you back up a bit and think more clearly.

Of course, you may not be alluding to Deism in his historio-theological sense. Perhaps you are just referencing the fact that so many of the ‘founding fathers’ leaned in that direction—for example, Thomas Jefferson. Even so, to implicate Lee as a moral criminal by “promoting Deism”—if you were only alluding to the theo-inclination of the ‘founding fathers’—cannot be considered accurate, wise, or prudent, now can it?

Nevertheless, even if it could be shown that all of the ‘founding fathers’ were hopelessly wed to formal, historic Deism—it cannot mind you, but supposing it could—such a fact counts exactly nothing whether evangelical Christians today possess virtually the same moral construct as did the ‘founding fathers.’ Recall Jefferson did not de-moralize the New Testament but de-miraclized it--—that is, he did not snip out the ethical teachings of Jesus, but the supernatural traits of Jesus. With this in mind, even if all of the ‘founding fathers’ were profoundly deistic in theology—again I’m only conceding for argument’s sake—nothing substantial changes concerning the fundamental moral construct of the ‘founding fathers’ and evangelical Christians.

And, I’m glad you have found good use of some of the things I explore here.

With that, I am…

Peter

selahV

Mary, your vigilance to that which we face as Christians in America is deeply appreciated. My daughter homeschools. Many women in our church homeschool, including our Minister of Education and his wife. I believe the day will soon approach, if those who think like our present president and his minions continue to lead our nation. We must find men and women who do not take away the rights we have as citizens under the constitution as well as Christians practicing our faith.

Thanks for commenting here. I for one look forward to what you have to say. selahV

selahV

half of my sentence disappeared. I wrote: "I believe the day will soon approach, if those who think like our present president and his minions continue to lead our nation,"....that we will indeed lose the rights we have. selahV

D.R. Randle

First: This conference announcement makes me sad. The last thing we need is more "Politics will save us" rhetoric. Persecution spreads the Gospel much better than politics ever has.

Second: Peter you said, "The YRR particularly are incensed when they discover The Patriot's Bible consistently outsells The ESV Study Bible on Amazon."

You might check your facts because as of my post, the Patriot Bible was no where close to the ESV Study Bible (#31 v. #2 Kindle version and #8 Hardback and #27 MacArthur Study Bible). Perhaps the Patriot's Bible beat out the ESV Study Bible the week it came out, but I think it's quite a stretch to say it "consistently" beats out the ESV Study Bible.

But of course, even one week above the ESV is a sad commentary for the state of American Christianity.

peter lumpkins

D.R.

And you're arguing against whom? Did you hear any of the speakers?  Were they quoted as proclaiming "politics will save us"? The caricature is astounding, given the often sung refrain of Calvinists like yourself toward non-Calvinists, "Stop misrepresenting Calvinism!" I suggest you drop the sad-face routine and at least represent those with whom you contend fairly.

Second, you assert, in contrast to what you skewed, an even more fantastic proposition--"Persecution spreads the Gospel much better than politics ever has."  Do you realize how patently absurd such a proposition is, D.R.? 

It's absurd, first, because it assumes politics, has, in fact, spread the gospel, which is arguable at best. It's absurd also because it assumes those of us who possess a more patriotic inclination are, in fact, attempting to spread the gospel through politics, apparently because we think politics a superior means than at least some other means, which is nutty at best.

It's absurd most of all, D.R., not because there is no truth in seeing victory for the church of Jesus Christ during even the harshest persecution. There is, as Scripture makes clear (Acts 8).

Rather, to argue such a proposition in order to justify inaction--including but not limited to political inaction--on the part of those who are in a position to act is morally repulsive.

Presently, there is a Christian pastor--Youcef Nadarkhani--in Iran facing the death penalty for "thought crimes," leaving his wife and two children behind.  Your moral reasoning (or ill-reasoning) leaves the man on the gallows, telling his wife and children,

"There, there, now. Persecution will cause you to be stronger. Iranian thugs are God's servants, making you stronger and better. Injustice is a good thing, really."

Do we forget the basic human rights of persecuted masses of people in the world--Christian people like the Sudanese and South Africans--because, as you put it, "Persecution spreads the Gospel much better than politics..."? 

Using your moral suasion, D.R,  a fundamental do-nothing passivism receives its greatest inspiration.  No thanks. I’d rather a million times over Christians such as yourself would remain sad that some believers albeit wrongly charged with placing faith in politics to save or spread the gospel will remain steadfast in arguing fundamental human rights and freedom for all people—people fallen but nonetheless people made in God’s image--including your right and freedom to remain sad.

With that, I am…

Peter

peter lumpkins

Mary,

As you can see from the comments above, the uphill climb is almost insurmountable arguing salt and light principles we together embrace. Only one generation as thoroughly passive as the new generation is toward the politico and our children's children will be governed by the barrel of a gun.

Now that really is something that makes me profoundly sad...

With that, I am...
Peter

D.R. Randle

Peter,

Incredible response. I am always surprised at how far you will go to defend something so indefensible. When I get a little more time, I will post a longer response. For now I just wanted to say WOW!

peter lumpkins

D.R.

Be my guest. If I am so radically addicted to defending nonsense--i.e, "how far [I] will go to defend something so indefensible"--as you appear to imply, I shall look forward to your well-reasoned, "longer response."

With that, I am...
Peter

Mary

Selah, thank you for your kind words and thoughts. I ve always envied you your gift of words and your ability to always be kind to the nastiest of people.

Homeschooling is becoming a choice of more and more as parents wake up to how indoctrinization is actually occurring in schools. Also if you watch the news you begin to realize that even the so-called "good" are providing a mediocre level of educution. Some "conspiricy" theorist believe that this dumbing down of the electorate is intentional. The indoctrination certainly is

Politics has not, will not, nor will it ever save anyone's soul. No one claims that except the liberal/progressives who think they can bring in Utopia if we could only get rid of rich people and these stupid exclusive religious nuts.

Freedom of religion was such an important concept to the Founders that it ranked first in the amendments and above even freedom of the press in the first amendment. Not bad for a bunch of "deists". Unfortunately, those who believe in "living" constitution believe we've outlived ideas such as beliefs in sky fairies and for our own protection limits need to placed on the press. Do a little research into the current administrations cabinet and their beliefs on the press if you think I'm exaggerating.

Persecution is coming. I'm the egalitarians will cheer inserts itself into the church and says no more "discrimination" against women. Will they be cheering when that same ruling includes homosexuals? Those who look forward to persecution - you're really going to sit your grandchild on your knee and say "boy have you got it made. Back in my day we could worship freely and choose any translation of the Bible we wanted. You get these great PC Bibles with all the offensive parts removed. Not as many churches since they seized all the properties to pay the tax bills but what diversity in churches now. No more of this Jesus is the only way stuff. That was so divisive. I'm so glad I spent all my time on the Internet back in the days before the State controlled it, showing all those nonCalvinist what idiots they were. What a shame this generation can't study doctrine anymore."

But anyway...... one great thing about homeschooling, plenty of time in the schedule to go out to the pumpkin patch! We then come home to bake our pumpkin pies but not from the pumpkins we pick - we use the Libby's can stuff - cuz doing it with real pumpkins is a lot if work.

selahV

Mary, the "dumbing down" is a plan to control the electorate. If they are ignorant, unknowledgable, and incapable of thinking for themselves, then they will follow like dumb sheep to the slaughterhouse.

Nothing would thrill the atheistic communistic socialists more than to have the people in America so utterly discouraged with life in general that they will eagerly depend on government to supply their every need--including education. The homeschooling swell has been working and growing in thousands upon thousands...that independence destroys the government's hold on the minds of our children.

I believe a giant has been awakened in America and do believe the vigilant will not rest on their laurels as they work to keep freedom first and foremost as their agenda.

The very fact that people try to shout down the folks as are in this op by spewing what they "believe" to be true without knowing a thing about their messages tells us they fear what is going on amongst the silent majority which is no longer silent.

Keep standing in the gap, dear Mary. We need you...even if you do use Libby's canned pumpkin for pies. selahV

Mary

SelahV I appreciate the slack on the pies. On piemaking days we make eight to ten pies. We may still have a pie available for dessert the next evening. Talk to my 6'3" 14 year old and you'd think we were starving him.

It's amazing to me the attitude of those who think we're overexaggerting the state of affairs. The "progressives" are not hiding anything any more. I just read an article on Salon (not sympathetic to conservatives at all by Glenn Greenwald (one of the "professional left") about Cass Sunstein and how the WH got caught trying ton manipulate a propaganda message during the Obamacare fight. When the professional left is complaining the WH is pushing propaganda you gotta know times are bad. Cass Sunstein has lots of crazy wacko ideas if anyone wants to check out his books at the library.

I'm going to finish my evening praying and watching the miners of Chile. May God be glorified through this rescue.

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