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2010.05.26

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Jeremy Bias

Just my opinion, but referencing the fact that Liberty University uses this book in one of their classes doesn't seem like the best advertisement in the current climate. Also, maybe I missed it in the post, but when you say "their third best selling book", who are you referring to?

Thanks

peter lumpkins

Jeremy,

I have no reservations whatsoever in positively portraying LU's programs, commitment to biblical fidelity, and institutional integrity. Nor am I interested in teasing out precisely what you meant about LU's use of this book being indicative of bad advertisement. I suggest you learn to make healthy distinctions.

With that, I am...
Peter

SL

Might be the 3rd best-selling in B&H Academic, but not B&H overall.

Robin Foster

Peter

I purchased it on my Kindle. Great read. I personally recommend Dr. Allen's essay and Dr. Malcolm Yarnell's chapter.

Chris Roberts

1. Growth or impact of a movement cannot be determined by how well a book sells, particularly since those on the other side will also be buying the book. Also, one point about LU would be that sales to students required to purchase the book for a class do not necessarily mean those students find the book meaningful. They bought the book because they had to.

2. If anything, this book does say one thing in favor of the strength of the Calvinism movement: the conference took place as a response to the growth of Calvinism. Had the status quo been maintained, the conference never would have taken place. The conference was held, and the book put together, precisely because Calvinism has become such a force among so many people.

peter lumpkins

Robin,

Thanks. You're correct. Allen & Yarnell's chapters are excellent...

Chris,

Thank you for informing us so well of things we could never have figured out on our own. For example, it never occurred to me--and I'm sure it didn't to hundreds of other like-minded doofuses reading here--that students being required to purchase a book makes the book not so impressive after all. Well, there washes the meaningfulness of Wayne Grudem's systematic theology right down the sink. I suspect someone needs to inform him.

Or, take your undeniable hypothesis that Calvinism is on the rise. Who would have gotten that revealing impression from the Time article I cited?

Thanks again for the helpful correction to the silly, unfounded excitement I expressed.

With that, I am...
Peter

Chris Roberts

Peter,

And thank you for your most gracious response. Once again, your humility and grace are inspirational.

michael

I would think if this be true, Calvinism and Reformational thinking would not be on the rise but a minority Faith among the populations of the world at the end of days?:::>

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,
1Ti 4:3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

and

2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
2Ti 3:6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
2Ti 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

and

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


Seems to me the Apostle was given an understanding about human nature being drawn away from the Truth about a real relationship with God nearing the end of the final age?

Isn't that the great apostasy or put another way, the final great awakening before death and destruction rains upon the apostates?

Jesus' Words seem very very harsh to me:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

peter lumpkins

Chris,

And likewise, thank you, Chris, for your overly generous compliment. You're entirely too kind. Nonetheless, know I must refuse it.

Consider: contrary to your reading, my comment was not about grace at all; rather, it was about justice.

Go ye forth and thinketh on these things.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Michael,

Sorry. I missed toward what the "if this be true" refers.

With that, I am...
Peter

Tim Rogers

Brother Michael,

Are you saying that those who do not accept a Reformed Theology are apostate?

Tim

volfan007

I'm reading the book right now, and it's very,very good. From what I've read of it, I would highly recommend it.

David

michael

The title of the thread is "non"Calvinism"

What's opposite that but "Calvinism".

Reading those verses cited, one get the impression of a declining in something at the end of the world, a decline in "Eternal Life" by humanity.

John defines Eternal Life this way: John 17:3.

Or put another way, in the end of time many many people are turning away from God not toward Him, hence Jesus' word, "depart from Me, I never knew you".

Chris Roberts

Michael,

But do you mean to imply that one of those - either Calvinism or non-Calvinism - is evidence of the decline at the end of the world? While our disagreement is significant, that would be pushing way too far the significance of the disagreement between the two camps.

peter lumpkins

Michael,

I do not understand your point.

a) my title for the OP was not '"non"Calvinism."' Rather, it was "Whosoever Will: Non-Calvinism Gaining Traction in the Marketplace," and b) it referred to a marketable interest in a book.

In fact, my point was very simple: in light of the cultural/Christian sub-cultural "comeback" as expressed in neo-Calvinism, a non-Calvinist book records some good sales.

That's all. That's it.

Yet you log on and copy/paste biblical verses speaking of end-time apostasy. What on earth are you suggesting?

And, what busts my britches so early this A.M is, the verses you cite are more descriptive of the neo-Calvinism movement than non-Calvinism.

The Time article--written barely a year ago-- was definitive concerning their thesis: "Calvinism is back...[and]...is Evangelicalism's latest success story."

Now if you meant to suggest the waxing of neo-Calvinism is analogous to the "falling away," please inform me. If not, are you suggesting, as Tim inquired, non-Calvinism is analogous to the "falling away"? If so, I'm lost as to how non-Calvinism--indicative of waning not waxing in the Time article--is supposed to fit your grid when neo-Calvinism is what's presently theologically hot.

I'd caution carefulness in both what I actually post here as well as the copy/pasting of random biblical verses which shed little light on the subject under discussion.

With that, I am...
Peter

selahV

Peter: I must admit Michael's litany of verses made me wonder to whom he was speaking. I thought, "Is he telling me that because folks are not 5-pt Calvinists, that what they believe about the Lord and write about the Lord, will render them the indictment of "depart from me, I never knew you", from Jesus upon His return with reward in hand?

Michael, hello again. Praying the Lord is blessing you this very moment with peace and contentment in His grace and mercy.

Is your long list of references for those who are not Calvinists?

May I say that I've read those passages several times in my life as a born-again, regenerated Christian? They are such a sad indictment upon our world before our Lord comes with His reward in hand to gather us to Him and take us home to glory, aren't they? Breaks my heart for those who will meet His wrath and just judgment.

However, I rather like to share "Fear not, for lo, I am with thee, even unto the ends of the age."
And:
"Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6
And:
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13-14. (emphasis mine. Just love those definitive words.)

I get so excited thinking about the day when my Lord will reveal all His glory to me and I rest in Him to keep His promises. I trust in Jesus--not Luther, not Calvin, not Arminius, not any man. When I heard "whosoever believeth in Him", I truly believed that meant me and all those He urged me to lead to Him through the years by the reading or reciting of His Word. To me, the most operative of that phrase is "in Him", in Jesus Christ and Him born of a virgin, crucified, and ressurected--the firstfruit of the Kingdom of God.

Why must this be so complicated? Man is lost and Jesus saves. Man is convicted of sin and admits it; Jesus' blood cleanses him from all unrighteousness and the Holy Spirit marks him in Jesus with a seal. Forgiven, sealed, and being sanctified, and will be glorified. Simple. At least it is to me. And as for the mysteries the Most High keeps hidden from my view today, I will someday see clearly. Meanwhile, it is written: "The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me." Psalm 138:8

Such confidence there is in knowing these things. Such peace they afford. His grace is sufficient, indeed. What I love about being born into the kingdom of God is once one is born, one cannot be unborn. I do believe this is part of what WHOSOEVER WILL is giving readers (although with a bit more twists and turns and explanation). selahV

Chris Roberts

As a more humorous (to me, anyway) aside, I really am excited to hear that "Whosoever Will" is doing so well. I assume you mean this book, right? http://yfrog.com/5ztmdj

peter lumpkins

Chris,

Actually that is very funny--I got about three stitches on my belly-meter when I opened the link :^0

With that, I am...
Peter

Brian H.

"As a more humorous (to me, anyway) aside, I really am excited to hear that "Whosoever Will" is doing so well. I assume you mean this book, right? http://yfrog.com/5ztmdj"

The price is good too!

Tony Byrne

Chris Roberts,

I suspect that you are only joking, but do you honestly wish to endorse Hoeksema and his hyper-Calvinistic theology? I hope not. Any rise in Hoeksemian theology is a cause for grief among orthodox Calvinists, not excitement.

GTY,
Tony

Ron Hale

I ordered the book on Amazon the first week it was out --- I've enjoyed it greatly. I also enjoyed the chapter by R. Alan Streett on the Public Invitation. "Come" was a favorite word for Jesus. I praise God for the passionate but tender pleading of an old Evangelist from Texas by the name of Jack Brown -- I stepped forward on probably the fourteenth verse of "Just As I Am" and this former Night Club owner got up from the altar a new creation in Christ. To God be the Glory!

Lucas DeFalco

If book sales are any measure of theological accuracy, then Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer and Paula White have all cornered the market on truth! :-b

On a more serious note, a thorough review of church history over the last 500 years will show that there is a strong surge of Calvinism/monergism every 30-40 years or so, followed by surge of Arminianism/synergism. For the last 20 years there has been a growth in Calvinist thinking in the SBC especially among younger folks. We can speculate as to why this is so (hunger of theologically-driven preaching, fighting off postmodernism, etc.). It would not surprise me now to see a swing back in the other direction.

Meaning no disrespect to Drs. Allen or Lemke, but a book like this probably doesn't amount to much more than a shot from the scholastic "ivory tower." I'd be much more interested in reading some pastoral perspectives on this. Nonetheless, if my very limit book budget allow I may pick up a copy at some point.

Lucas DeFalco

Boy that last post just proves why I don't need to be posting on the internet before I've had my 2nd cup of coffee!!! :-o

My apologies for the spelling/grammatical errors in that post.

Don Johnson

"If anything, this book does say one thing in favor of the strength of the Calvinism movement: the conference took place as a response to the growth of Calvinism."

Assuming the above statement is correct, I for one wish they had done it earlier before the error of Calvinistic theology took root.

Steve Lemke

Just for clarification, while we deeply appreciate Liberty using Whosoever Will as a text in its classes, this is a comparatively small percentage of the total sales. Also, perhaps it goes without saying that it is characteristic of academic books to be used as texts for classes . . .

Steve Lemke

I have to smile at Jeremy's comment. In the world of Christian publishing, when the largest seminary in North America chooses a text, every author, editor, and publisher is thrilled to have a text chosen by Liberty. The endorsement of Liberty University and Liberty Seminary are like a consumer product being pushed by WalMart, or a popular book being on Oprah's list -- it's a big factor. Because of their huge enrollment, Liberty is like the Texas school book committee -- the publishers want to publish books pleasing them because they buy so many copies, so Texas essentially sets the pattern for the texts that are written and sold in all states. It was Liberty's commitment to use the book next semester that encouraged our publisher to approve the third printing of Whosoever Will. When Liberty endorses a text, there's an office party at the publisher's office!

In addition to Liberty, we have heard that several other Christian colleges and seminaries are going to be using Whosoever Will as a text next year. We do hope it is edifying and useful in the Kingdom of God in expressing a position that is neither fully Arminian nor Calvinist, but represents a Baptist tradition that holds divine sovereignty and human freedom in the tension that we see them presented in Scripture. This approach has often been ignored and underrepresented in recent books and conferences, and we believe this perspective has a right to be heard.

D.R. Randle

A few things ought to be pointed out before getting excited about the relative popularity of this book.

1) This book has been out for only about two months. The true test of the popularity of a book (like that of a movie) is how well it does after its initial opening.

2) B&H academic is relatively small in comparison with Eerdman's, Baker's, Zondervan's, Crossway's, or even Nelson's academic publishing arms.

3) In regard to #1, since publishing this post a week ago, "WW" has fallen out of the top 5 in each of the three categories mentioned above ('Baptist' to 21st; 'Other Denoms' to 7th; and 'Calvinist' to 21st).

4) Even while in the top 5, "WW" was beaten by 3 Calvinists in the Baptist Category (Spurgeon, Akin, and Hammett) and the 3 in the Calvinist category (Edwards, Sproul, and Calvin, himself).

5) Regarding #4 - most the books that were (and still are) ranked higher than "WW" were published years, even decades and centuries ago, which speaks more to the book's initial success and not a real "traction in the marketplace".

6) Dr. Lemke is exactly right when he says that the book got a huge shot from Liberty. But while Liberty might be big, it is really not considered to be on the academic cutting edge in comparison to say Trinity, Denver, Beeson, Westminster, Gordon-Conwell, or even Southern. Most of Liberty's students are small church pastors who take classes online. Thus, his point is a big overstated in regards to the whole "Oprah Book Club" idea. An endorsement by Justin Taylor would go much further than Liberty's usage of the book.


So, in conclusion, it is simply too early to tell whether Non-Calvinism is truly getting traction in the marketplace. Calvinism ultimately still dominates the theology departments of many of the largest and best Evangelical seminaries. And until there is a wane in Calvinism academically and pastorally it will continue to be on the rise for some time.

peter

Jeremy,

If you'd like to rework your response to Dr. Lemke into a presentable format, I'd be happy to post it. As it is, your rhetoric is emotional spew and highly offensive. Do you think you can write an adult comment? Do you think you can show a minimum amount of respect to Dr. Lemke?

If you can, be my guest. Publishing your comment will be top priority!

With that, I am...
Peter

peter

D.R.

Thanks. I'm unsure what you've pointed is either news--that is, something Dr. Lemke (or even I for that matter) was unaware--or should necessarily quench one's point about traction in the market place. No one suggests WW is a "bombshell" so to speak or will prove to be a classic which stands the test of time. This may or may not be.

Rather what I wrote was WW is gaining traction in the marketplace. That's all. And traction is traction even if it is traction short-stayed, or traction with wax and wane. I'd like traction for a book I wrote; wouldn't you?

Nor, D.R. did I deny neo-Calvinism's theological prominence in Christian sub-culture, which obviously includes seminaries. Instead I affirmed it.

What I also affirm is, cultural Christianity's swing toward neo-Calvinism is facing a rising counter-cultural theo-obstacle in non-Calvinism. And, predictably, that's why I mentioned Hubmaier's dictum--the unkillability of truth.

With that, I am...
Peter

D.R. Randle

Peter,

Two thoughts - you said that the book was gaining traction. That suggests that it was gaining market share, when in fact, it is losing it, while other (Calvinistic) books are maintaining. Perhaps the title of this post should have been: "Whosoever Will: Non-Calvinism had Traction in the Marketplace (for a couple of months), for that would be more accurate. Gaining traction suggests upward movement, not backward movement, which is clearly the case currently.

Secondly, if my comment wasn't news, how exactly was your post news? If you admit that the traction was only temporary, how can you claim that there is any sort of "rising counter-cultural theo-obstacle in non-Calvinism"? After all, you seem to clearly admit in this comment that the traction was "short-stayed". According to your logic, one could claim that any and every book published which sells well for 2 months = the movement behind it gaining traction. That's quite a stretch.

In reality, the relative, short-lived, success of this book can't specifically speak to any traction of a larger theological movement. Even as you admitted, Calvinism is still gaining momentum in Christianity (and I would say rightly so, since I would agree with Hubmaier that truth is unkillable). All you can really say about this is that there are some non-Calvinists and possibly undecided Christians who are interested in reading a book against Calvinism. And surely you would agree that's not news.

peter

D.R.

O.K.  Why you’re pressing this is not entirely clear.  However, I’ll bite once more.  A few  thoughts back:

First, you log on and suggest, “it is simply too early to tell whether Non-Calvinism is truly getting traction in the marketplace.”  Then you come back and conclude, “Gaining traction suggests upward movement, not backward movement, which is clearly the case currently” (emphasis added).  Make up your mind, D.R. If it is “too early to tell” then why is it also “clearly the case” contrariwise? 

The fact is, I logged the OP mostly as an encouragement to the editors/authors and to thank them for a job well done.  I did not log this post to be a definitive statement about precisely how well the book was doing, especially, for example, in comparison with other books.  If any of the factual info I gave was wrong, correct it.  If it is not, I’m wondering out loud exactly what your point is about bringing in comparison volumes.

Nor is the image I offered (gaining traction) entirely inaccurate as you appear to suggest.  Depending, of course, upon whether it’s “entirely too early to tell” or it’s “clearly the case.”

Second, D.R., you query: “If you admit that the traction was only temporary, how can you claim that there is any sort of "rising counter-cultural theo-obstacle in non-Calvinism"?… That’s quite a stretch.”  Well, perhaps it would be “quite a stretch,” as you put it, if my premise was that WW singularly constitutes the counter-cultural theo-obstacle to neo-Calvinism.  Read my words again, D.R.  While WW certainly may be indicative of a theo-obstacle to neo-Calvinism, it is certainly not the only indicator so to speak. Nor do my words imply such.

You conclude in your final paragraph, “In reality, the relative, short-lived, success of this book can't specifically speak to any traction of a larger theological movement.”  Well, as I said above, you’re wrongly assuming a premise I did not suggest. 

I do find it humorous, however, that your final conclusion is the confident reality that WW  possesses a “relative, short-lived, success…”  Again, I’m afraid you’re going to have to make up your mind, D.R.  First, it was “it is simply too early to tell”; then you switched to “clearly the case” that WW is in a “backward movement” and now, “the relative, short-lived, success” of Lemke & Allen’s book.

Frankly, I would have been happy to concede your first statement—“too early to tell.” Concerning your other summaries, however, I’ll pass.

With that, I am…

Peter

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