James White, Scholarship and Insulting Ergun Caner (Part I) by Peter Lumpkins

 Now that the holiday is behind me and the insatiable urge to take some back roads through the North Georgia mountains, I need to wrap up a matter mentioned by James White in one of his magnificent blog pieces he wrote with my name attached.  Indeed I encourage him to keep up the good work.

At least, James did not out and out refer to me as a liar as he consistently has before (//link).  Though, I must admit he came close:  “Once again Lumpkins shows himself utterly incapable of either research, or honesty, or both” (//link).

Like I said, at least White is throwing in a couple options now.

Even so, the point of my present piece is not really what James White says about me.  Instead, it’s what James White says about Ergun Caner.  In the same piece linked above, White proceeds to inform his readers precisely why he thinks I’m “utterly incapable” of honesty, research, or both.  White writes:

“Those who have taken the time to listen to my debates, or listen to my lectures, or listen to my interactions with Islamic claims on the Dividing Line (such as the current response I am offering to Sheikh Awal) know that I have consistently eschewed the title of "expert on Islam." Honest people know I refer to myself as a student of Islam” (italics original)

I think White’s point is clear, especially clear since he italicized the key word “eschewed”:  White wants us to understand how he shuns, avoids, and stays away from being considered an expert in Islam.  Presumably, “eschewing” includes correcting those who refer to him as an expert in Islam.   We like his point and think James White is correct in insisting upon it. We wonder, however, about the meaning of significant actions and words on White’s behalf if White really does think he is not a scholar. We’ll get to this in Part II.

What I’d like to point out and demonstrate in the remainder of this piece is James White’s inexcusable ignorance in mistakenly judging Ergun Caner a non-expert in Islam.  Granted White was forthright in confessing his own deficiency in Muslim thought: “Further, Mr. Lumpkins has asked where I studied Islam. Outside of various surface-level discussions in seminary…my study has been personal.”

Thank you for your concession, Mr. White (admittedly I wondered why I was so “utterly incapable” of research, honesty or both in light of his full concession to the question I posed).

And, while James White was frank about his possessing absolutely no formal academic training and/or research in the subject,  why he felt the need to press his deficiency onto Ergun Caner is anyone’s guess. 

White tragically goes on:

“But let's put the shoe on the other foot: where did either Ergun or Emir Caner do graduate study in Islamic theology or apologetics? Answer? They didn't. They have been granted "expert" status for one simple reason: Ergun's claims that they were raised in Turkey… . The only reason they have been given the status they have has been due to their self-professed upbringing.”

So, James White states flat out neither Ergun Caner (nor his brother Emir) pursued graduate study in Islamic theology.  Indeed both have been “given the status they have” due to a “self-professed upbringing” which, of course, James White is on record accusing them (accusing at least Ergun) of being “fake ex muslims.” 

Well, James White is dead wrong on Ergun Caner’s credentials. That’s right.  Dead wrong.  

Let's look and see.

Of the earned degrees Dr. Caner has, two earned degrees specifically deal with Islam.  In Dr. Ergun Caner’s Master of Theology thesis at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, the topic was “The Call to the First Crusade” (1095), an academic pursuit focusing on the war between Muslims and Christians. This in itself prepares Ergun Caner to speak with a measure of authority on Islam.

Nevertheless, even more, Ergun Caner’s doctoral dissertation pursued a more rigorous scholarly understanding of Islam—especially focusing on Islamic jihad contrasted with the Just War theory in the Christian tradition.  Upon successfully presenting and defending his scholarship in a dissertation entitled, “Bellum Sacrum: The Development of the Holy War of the First Crusade in Light of Augustine’s Just War Criteria” (i.e. Just War vs. Holy War”), Ergun Caner was presented the prestigious doctor of theology degree September, 2003.

Below is a picture of the title page for his dissertation:

 

Adding to the scholarly academic credentials Ergun Caner possesses are several volumes dealing directly with Islam, volumes including: 

• Unveiling Islam: An Insider's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs
• More Than a Prophet: An Insider's Response to Muslim Beliefs About Jesus & Christianity
• Christian Jihad: Two Former Muslims Look at the Crusades and Killing in the Name of Christ
• Voices Behind the Veil: The World of Islam Through the Eyes of Women
• The Costly Call: Modern-Day Stories of Muslims Who Found Jesus
• Out of the Crescent Shadows: Leading Muslim Women into the Light of Christ

Two things are in order:  First,  James White was dead wrong when he explicitly asserted Ergun Caner has no graduate study in Islam.  Not only is such an assertion obviously wrong, it is decidedly insulting, since Caner had much more than “graduate study” in Islamic thought.  Rather, Dr. Caner has two academically earned degrees specifically in Islamic thought, one of which is the highest degree attainable in scholarly field—the doctor of theology (for all purposes academically equivalent to the doctor of philosophy).

Add to the scholarly academic degrees he earned Dr. Caner’s impressive literary works specifically dealing with Islam—works published by reputable publishers--and the only reasonable conclusion one may forge is, Dr. Caner definitively possesses the credentials to substantiate the “expert status” which has widely been bestowed upon him.

Nor is there the least reason—outside of personal prejudice—to suggest Caner’s “status” was given based upon an alleged “self-professed upbringing.” The fact is, as the record shows above, Caner received his doctoral degree in 2003.  One would be required to assume his scholarly pursuits counted for exactly nothing in his trek to becoming presently viewed as an expert in Muslim thinking in mainstream media.   

That aside, for James White to openly, publicly state, in light of obvious evidence to the contrary, that Ergun Caner did not pursue graduate study in Islamic theology is entirely absurd and personally degrading—not to mention untruthful--toward Dr. Caner.

Indeed James White needs to publicly admit his dishonorable insult toward Dr. Caner and set the record straight. Will James White’s readership and Dividing Line listeners hold him accountable for publicly insulting Dr. Caner?  Denying what, in fact, is the case--Ergun Caner pursued rigorous academic research in Islamic thought?  One cannot say.

Second, we are once again faced with making premature judgments about matters which are publicly hurtful toward others.  James White confidently assured his readers that Ergun Caner had no scholarly credentials in Islam:

“…where did either Ergun or Emir Caner do graduate study in Islamic theology or apologetics? Answer? They didn't.” 

It was easy enough to overturn this confidently but wrongly held belief James White possessed about Ergun Caner’s life and circumstances. 

In light of this, one wonders what other public accusation James White (and Mohammed Khan, for that matter) has “confidently” brought against Ergun Caner which, upon closer scrutiny, is just as easily overturned as “Ergun Caner has no graduate study in Islam.”

I hope and pray LU will consider these obviously careless accusations about Dr. Caner’s credentials when they assess some of the other accusations James White has made toward Caner. 

With that, I am…

Peter    

Part II examines White's self-professed status as student of Islam rather than expert in Islam    

Comments

[tami]

thank you peter for keeping us informed with the facts. blessings.

[J. Dale Weaver, M. Div.]

Thanks for publishing the facts, Peter. I don't know what it is with people like White. Do they think they honor Christ when they attempt to dishonor others who serve Christ?

I suppose this is what one comes to when his system of beliefs -- and his own personal view if them -- must be defended at all costs, rather than aimed at glorifying Christ and defending the faith once delivered to the saints.

What a stain on the testimony of Christ James White has become. And though it is not as much a joy to pray for him, I still do, just as I pray that God continues to use Dr. Ergun Caner (and his brother Emir) in their work to spread the gospel, especially to Muslims - "Isa bin Allah!"

And once again, thanks to you, my friend, for your continuing voice and work!

Blesssings,

Dale Weaver

[Tim G]

Peter,
You have once again proven to be a man who does more than write and speak. You researched and discovered fact!

Thank you!

[Tim Rogers]

Brother Peter,

Your research has to be flawed as it does not match up with James White's proof. It obviously points to your deficiency in doing sound research for you to find two degrees where a thesis had to be defended concerning Islam. I mean, lets forget Dr.(can one say earned) Caner and his degrees for a moment. Your degrees from Southern certainly should come into play because I am sure they do not teach sound research principles up there in Louisville. Thus, you old country bumpkin riding around in those Georgia mountains with the tunes of Dueling Banjo's playing in the background, you sir are........

End my sad attempt at satire.

Great post. I wonder if Golden Gate is aware of their Prof's research and his now back peddling of his "expert" status?

Blessings,
Tim

[Erlend]

Peter,

White did say, in fact most times when he mentioned Caner's lack of expertise on Islam, that he had a doctorate in the Crusades. I didn't get why he thought that didn't qualify him to speak on Islam [or at least the 11th century version of Islam], but for the sake of truth you probably should mention that. Other than that his defenders will just start calling you a liar, and forget the true point you are trying to make.

[Robin Foster]

Peter

You country bumpkin. Enjoy some beans, greens and cornbread on me. ;-)

Great research!

[Drpenn]

Great piece Peter! I thought James White's (Jim) post was a bit attacking too, but I really do not have the educational background to opine as eloquently or intelligently as you have.

I interpret what Jim says as nothing more than trying to be the playground bully. He might say all that he has to say with high-brow intellectual chatter, and he certainly says it in a condescending tone. However, after awhile anyone with any kind of discernment can see he is puffed up on himself, and what he says amounts to nothing more than playground banter. He really should spend his efforts and intellect where they are most needed, and less on attacking his brothers in Christ.

[peter lumpkins]

Thanks all. Yes, I be countrre bumpkin...

Eriend,

Granted White's defenders have a very hard time accepting their hero is prone to making prejudicial assessments based on insufficient data (i.e. 'you, sir, are a liar'). But I wonder about your statement: "White did say, in fact most times when he mentioned Caner's lack of expertise on Islam, that he had a doctorate in the Crusades." I'd like to see such documented.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Lucas DeFalco]

Peter,

Setting aside for the moment the books that Drs. Caner have written on Islam (marginal works at best containing a diluted mixture of recited facts and claimed personal experience -- I have three of them on my own bookshelf), for we all know that simply writing a book on Islam no more makes one an expert than Peter Ruckman writing a book advocating the KJV makes him an expert on textual criticism!

I have a question for you regarding Dr. Ergun Caner's formal Islamic education:

Please explain to me, with non-related parallel examples, how writing a thesis and a dissertation on the crusades makes one an expert on Islam? My understanding is that both works were largely an examination of the actions of the Christians during the Crusades in light of Augustine's just war theory. Did he have to complete advanced studies of the Qu'ran for these degrees? Did he have to learn Arabic (a language he is already on record as stating he is not proficient) for either of these degrees? Did he complete any studies in Islamic systematic theology? What analysis did Dr. Caner give of Islamic theology in either the thesis or dissertation?

It appears you may have access to a copy of one or both of these works by Dr. Caner. I confess I do not as I am not aware that they are even published. If you do have access to either work, please share information regarding the above questions that you may have.

Even if Dr. Caner never grew up in Turkey/Iraq or in an Islamic household, if it could be established that he has advanced formal education in Islamic theology and history I could at least keep the three books I have invested in sitting on my shelf.

I know I said previously that I felt like I was done with this issue, but your post has got me curious.

[Brennon]

Lucas,

Your whole post is a tad irrelevant, since the statement that is being discussed is White's "where did either Ergun or Emir Caner do graduate study in Islamic theology or apologetics? Answer? They didn't." This is clearly false, as Caner did do graduate studies on Islam.

[peter lumpkins]

Lucas,

Two things. First, for you to begin your quest by judging Caner's works as "marginal works at best containing a diluted mixture of recited facts and claimed personal experience, " a decidedly prejudiced affirmation at best. Are you qualified to dismiss Caner's works as both "marginal" and a "diluted mixture of recited facts and claimed personal experience"? Why should we trust your assessment, Lucas? Do you have the expertise to judge Caner's works so negatively?

Taking the first volume I listed--Unveiling Islam--a volume which has sold over 200,000 copies and published in various languages has been favorably reviewed in scholarly journals such as The Master's Seminary Journal and Bibliotheca Sacra. Yet without the least hesitation you dismiss his books as "marginal works" containing "diluted mixture" of "recited facts."

I suggest, Lucas, since you're so dissatisfied with these inferior "marginal" works, you pen your own version of "Unveiling Islam." I'd be happy to review it here.

Second, recall what I claimed: "...the only reasonable conclusion one may forge is, Dr. Caner definitively possesses the credentials to substantiate the “expert status” which has widely been bestowed upon him (italics original).

Hence, I never once implied as you attribute to me, that writing a thesis and a dissertation on the crusades makes one an expert on Islam. What I explicitly affirmed was, Caner possessed the adequate credentials to substantiate the "expert status" which has widely been bestowed upon him, and that regardless of whether he was an ex-muslim or not.

I further implied that to assume Caner would have been considered an "expert" had he not academically studied Islam is decidedly presumptuous at best and patently absurd at worst.

And, frankly, Lucas, to query precisely what particular nuances of Islam Caner had to study to pursue his academic track is, as Brennon similarly pointed out, a little less than a puff of smoke to cloud the fact that Caner rigorously studied Islam at the master's and doctoral levels, culminating in two academic projects dealing with Islam. Whatever was required, Caner obviously met the qualifications for both the master and doctoral levels.

Indeed your query about Caner's dissertation title reveals much about your ignorance concerning doctoral studies:

"Please explain to me, with non-related parallel examples, how writing a thesis and a dissertation on the crusades makes one an expert on Islam?" (emphasis added)

Before research subjects are approved for doctoral dissertations by the supervision committee, the subject must be sufficiently precise and condensed in one area of inquiry. For example, few, if any, doctoral committees would allow a doctoral student to pursue a dissertation on "The Holy Spirit." It would have to be more precise like, "The Holy Spirit according to John's Gospel."

But even then, it would be much to general for standard, rigorous research to culminate in a single dissertation. Hence, it would necessarily be honed down even more like, "The Parakletos in John 14-16."

Similarly, Caner could not write a dissertation on "The Theology of Islam" or perhaps even "Holy War." An even tighter research area would be required. Caner's expertise is in Islam in general but more specifically in Holy jihad, a subject in and of itself a 'hot-potato' issue in our culture.

Indeed Caner's chosen field could very well explain his accelerated popularity among Americans today since 911, Bush's Iraqi Invasion, the British and European nightmare dealing with Islamic terror, etc. have been so prominently explored. Media mongrels would naturally seek out the Caners. In fact, their context growing up could well have been in the background.

Whatever the case, Ergun Caner has both lived Islam and academically studied Islam--the reality of which James White has denied on both accounts!--the perfect formula for the making of an "expert" if ever there was one (I'll have more on this in Part II).

Hence, to query all Islamic nuances Caner studied to pursue his research project appears ridiculously incorrigible, Lucas.

Now, I'll ask you a question:

did or did not James White mistakenly and explicitly deny Ergun Caner pursued graduate work in Islamic studies?

I will entertain no other comment nor will I post another comment from you until you answer that question.

Thanks.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Bob L. Ross]

Dear Peter:

James White has been known to be wrong before. Here are a few examples of some items on which we have demonstrated on the Calvinist Flyswatter blog that James is wrong:

1 John 5:1:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2010/03/white-lightnin-again-on-1-john-51.html

C. H. Spurgeon:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2006/03/james-white-born-again-before-faith.html

Peter Ruckman:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2008/08/white-to-revise-books.html

1689 Baptist Confession on Regeneration:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2008/08/james-white-baptist-confession.html

Non-Reformed and Debating:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2008/08/white-lightnin-strikes-again.html

MacArthur Study Bibles:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2008/05/whites-dandy-declaration.html

The Raising of Lazarus:
http://writingsofbobross.tripod.com/0056.htm

His Semi-Pelagianism:
http://writingsofbobross.tripod.com/0053.htm

Bob L. Ross:
http://writingsofbobross.tripod.com/0087.htm

John MacArthur's former views which JMac later recanted:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2008/05/whats-eating-james-white.html
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2006/04/what-does-james-white-believe-about.html

Paul and his "horse" (?)
http://writingsofbobross.tripod.com/0090.htm
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2006/03/odd-logic-of-james-white.html#c114282668055983565

-- Bob L. Ross
Pilgrim Publications
http://www.pilgrimpublications.com

[Tim Rogers]

Brother Peter,

Indeed your query about Caner's dissertation title reveals much about your ignorance concerning doctoral studies:

"Please explain to me, with non-related parallel examples, how writing a thesis and a dissertation on the crusades makes one an expert on Islam?" (emphasis added)

Before research subjects are approved for doctoral dissertations by the supervision committee, the subject must be sufficiently precise and condensed in one area of inquiry.

It seems that our Brother Lucas may be trying to get his graduate degrees from http://www.columbiaseminary.edu/>here.

Blessings,
Tim

[peter lumpkins]

Lucas,

Allow me to remind you the precise words in my response to you: "I will entertain no other comment nor will I post another comment from you until you answer that question." Did you think I was not serious?

The way I count, Lucas, you have 3 comments waiting in moderation. When you answer the simple question I asked, I'll be glad to post at least those three.

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter lumpkins]

All--especially James White supporters,

One James White supporter wrote, "Peter, Regarding what James White said, he can speak for himself as to what he said or did not say."

One could only wish, White supporters would have granted the same silence toward Caner as is now offered toward James White. Instead the non-negotiable conclusion is, "Caner lied."

TAKE NOTE: no comment will be posted on this thread by a James White supporter who is unwilling to answer the question I asked Lucas, namely:

did or did not James White mistakenly and explicitly deny Ergun Caner pursued graduate work in Islamic studies?

With that, I am...
Peter

[David B. Hewitt]

Fine, Peter.

Forgive me if I am going to appear a bit irritated -- I most certainly am.

Something has been eating at me for a while, and my blood just seems to boil when I read your posts on this, at least the last two (for those are the two I am thinking of at the moment). Why? Well, I'll tell you why, and then I'll answer the question that you have put forward.

The reason is that you and most other people in this comment thread have failed to give James White the benefit of the doubt or to define his own terms. Had he done that in the past? Sure. Who hasn't? The problem of course is not whether or not Dr. White has done so on this issue before us or not. You are not accountable for him of course, but you are accountable for yourself -- all of you!

Do you or do you not consider James White a Christian brother? If not, then you have some explaining to do I would think. If so, then why not trust that, even if he is "dead wrong" as Peter has said, can you not at the very least insist that Dr. White was attempting to bring out issues for the glory of God and try to find out how?

Truly!

In answer to your question:
"did or did not James White mistakenly and explicitly deny Ergun Caner pursued graduate work in Islamic studies?"

The answer is NO. Given the prejudice that seems pervasive in this thread, I'll explain why my statement is true.

On the Dividing Line, Dr. White has talked about Caner's degrees with relevance to the crusades; I forget the episode(s), but I do remember hearing it. Most of his discussion takes place on that program, and on that same program he affirmed that he does believe that both Caners are ex-muslims. His dispute is whether or not they are devout muslims. Such information is available, though it may take a bit if listening to arrive at it (as in go through some of the DL archives).

Further, the Dividing Line helps understand my answer. Here is why: James White is not defining terms the same as you are. Lucas provided in his comment something much closer to White's understanding of "graduate studies in Islam." Just because a thesis or dissertation happens to address Islam (which I am sure he would affirm about Dr. Caner's degrees), it does not follow that the aforementioned papers delved deeply into Islamic theology. THAT was what Dr. White meant when he made his reference to Dr. Caner's degrees, Dr. Lumpkins.

Never mind the whole issue of the genetic fallacy that may well resolve much of the issue from the last post....I attempted to comment on that but hit a wrong button. I am certainly far from perfect.

Allow me to end this comment with a plea to you all. Examine yourselves and see if there be any sin in any of your conduct, writings, and assumptions. May God help us all.

a worm,
dbh

[Erlend]

Hi Peter,

on 30 March 2010 White notes on his radio show that Ergun had a ThD in the crusades [he initially thought it was the inquisition] which he said 'which would have something to do with Islam. It is true, it would'

White would probably argue that studying the movement of Islam in the 10 century, 400 years after Mohammed, is different from studying the Quran or earliest Islam. Just as studying 4 century Christianity isn't the same as studying the Bible or earliest Christianity.

It would give Ergun a reason to talk about Jihad though, which would explain why he talked to those soldiers that White gets so angry about.

[peter lumpkins]

David,

First, thanks for answering my question.  And, since you did, you get a “get out of jail free” card.  Hence, I posted your comment. Your buddies remain jail-birds.

Second, I’d think about taking a “chill-pill” were I you.  Don’t allow what I write to get under your skin so much, or as you put it, your “blood just seems to boil.”  Take a couple of deep breaths…slowly…in-out, in-out.  There.  Isn’t that better now? 

Third, failed to what?  “Give James White the benefit of doubt?” Excuse me?  David, you cannot be serious charging in here, delivering your sermonette, and expect anyone to take you with the least bit of seriousness. Your community has taken a razor blade to Ergun Caner’s entire life, all the way back to his birth, posted childhood pics, ridiculed the way he pronounced Arabic words, lampooned him for confusing names, and branded him with a big “L” on his forehead, and yet you march in here and speak about giving someone the benefit of a doubt?  While none of above is necessarily indicative as to how one should respond to James White’s misdemeanors, it does offer some telling commentary about your community, David. 

Fourth, define his own terms?  Define his own terms?  David, that’s just unmitigated literary gunk.  James White made a straight-forward statement.  What need would there be for special definitions?  He was not making a tight doctrinal point.  He was not making a fine tuned point which called for tight reasoning.  Instead, he made a very straight-forward statement.  Care to rewind the tape?

“But let's put the shoe on the other foot: where did either Ergun or Emir Caner do graduate study in Islamic theology or apologetics? Answer? They didn't. They have been granted "expert" status for one simple reason: Ergun's claims that they were raised in Turkey… . The only reason they have been given the status they have has been due to their self-professed upbringing.”

This statement needs no special context, precise definition of “graduate study” or “Islamic theology.”  White flat out denies Ergun Caner pursued graduate study in Islamic theology.  Now you boldly pronounce “No, he did not.”  Then you offer special definitions about what James White meant by “graduate studies.”  If James White meant what you say he meant, why didn’t he write such instead of writing what he did?  If he was employing a special definition of what is normally meant by not pursuing graduate studies in Islamic theology, where in the post in question is the reader supposed to find this special context for his special definition?

Quite frankly, I didn’t think any White supporter would go to the length you’ve already gone to salvage such a minor thing, David. Fantastic.

You strangely write, “The problem of course is not whether or not Dr. White has done so on this issue before us or not. You are not accountable for him of course, but you are accountable for yourself -- all of you! Do you or do you not consider James White a Christian brother?” David, this is both absurd and grossly offensive.  I wrote not one jot or tittle which remotely implies a question mark concerning White’s salvation.  Yet you glibly lay the implication at my feet.  I will say this only once:  please do not bring this back up again.

And, just why should anyone think it is for the glory of God, David, that James White should ask and answer, “… where did either Ergun or Emir Caner do graduate study in Islamic theology or apologetics? Answer? They didn't”?  Indeed, why is it not just as glorifying to God or perhaps more glorious for one to be vindicated from a grossly mistaken perception being proposed as accurate?  Could this not be the intention of this post?

No, my concern was not about prejudice, David.  I recorded White’s words.  I fairly interpreted White’s words.  You are denying White’s words—at least denying he possessed by them a straight-forward meaning.  Instead his words have a special meaning with special definitions only the initiated could appreciate.  This is a comedy, man.  I can’t quit laughing.

You write: “Just because a thesis or dissertation happens to address Islam…it does not follow that the aforementioned papers delved deeply into Islamic theology.”  Daivd, this is sophistry at its apex.  This could be said about every thesis on virtually any subject.  A dissertation on a very, tight theological theme in the NT may be just short of exhaustive, but it did not “delve deeply into Christian theology [in general]”.  Hence, it really doesn’t count.  The criticism is absurd. It criticizes all dissertations.

Nor will I even address the goofy “genetic fallacy.” Sometimes you guys are too much.  You mention a sophisticated sounding “fallacy” like “genetic fallacy” and expect others to squirm, trying to “answer” what is not really an objection at all.  Rather it’s more than likely a stinking fish to deter away from the real issue.  Not interested, David.  Pull the "logical" pranks on somebody else.

Finally, David, if you’re mad now, you got mad way too early.  Part II may really fog your glasses.

With that, I am…

Peter

[volfan007]

Wooo hooo...Peter. Facts sure do bring out the worst in some people. I read the things written to you, and I just sit back and smile...sometimes even chuckling...at the ridiculousness of the statements and the arguements. Then,I read your sound, logical answers..along with your special brand of humor...and I chuckle some more.

Thank you, Peter. Thank you for making me smile and chuckle. Thank you for making sense in this wild, twisted, viscious world of attack dogs going after anyone and/or anybody that disagrees with them.

God bless you,

David

[Eric Opsahl]

I am one who listens to Elder White from time to time (because I like what he has to say).
Why would graduate studies in Islam even be an issue to anyone. Does someone need to have graduate studies or a degree in Islam to be qualified in "Debating" or teaching Islam. Why in the world would Mr. Caner need graduate studies to be qualified or an "Expert" in Islam. I'm not talking a point that he is or Isn't qualified. Just that it seems ridiculous to suggest that without graduate work he can't be Qualified. Is a man no longer able to study and learn and become "expert" outside of "higher education" If so, pity the poor God centered, humble, self educated "country" preacher who is faithfully leading his flock. If Mr. Caner said he has graduate studies in Islam which make him qualified, (and he doesn't) that is a different issue. As your post states, he did graduate work on Islam. It hasn't appeared to me that Mr. Caner has said anything more or less.
Eric

[Bennett Willis]

I can't believe that you let "Concerned Pastor" post a Caner slam that he had already posted on Debbie's blog. All the oil he put on the opening statement must have weakened your perception. :)

[peter]

Bennett,

Thanks for the heads-up. Actually, I did not mind a "con" Caner comment at that stage since I had not posted my litmus test question to James White supporters at that time. The only White supporter who cared to answer my simple question is David. Hence, he got out of jail free.

But you do bring up an interesting point which pushes me to remove the comment. The disingenuous statement about "posting here" rather than elsewhere but nonetheless posting substantially the same comment elsewhere. Thanks!

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter]

Lucas,

You write, "James White can speak for himself regarding his view of Ergun Caner's level of expertise on Islam. I am no apologist for James White on this or any other matter. That is my answer. It is AN answer."

Nope. No soup for you.

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter]

Lucas,

My patience is expended with you. I politely asked you to stop logging long comments clogging this thread, comments which I definitively stated would not be posted (unless you gave a straight-forward answer to the simple question I posed to you). I sent two emails requesting you stop, or I would flag your IP, and all your posts would go directly to the spam bucket.

Yet, the comments keep appearing in my inbox.

The type of harassment you're demonstrating is precisely why I have moderation engaged on this site now. I've had open commenting from 2006 until a couple of months ago when JW troops besieged my city. Some of you soldiers--you, Lucas, are included in the some--do not understand the implications of incorrigible belligerence.

Well, congrats are in order! You are now officially spam, Lucas.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Tim G]

Peter,
I find it odd that little defense (credible) of White's errors are being given. White himself is even ceasing to respond.

I wonder why? Could it be you have this issue nailed down?

[peter lumpkins]

Tim,

Thanks. Know some of the "defense" is held in moderation because they either: a) won't answer the simple question I gave to Lucas (who has, I think 6 comments sitting there) or, b) they intend on making this post about charges against Ergun Caner instead of the words James White wrote.

As for White *not* responding, I think it is only a matter of time. I do not see him--given his past history--to pass up a good opportunity to "defend" himself, especially against "traditionalist" men like me who are "utterly incapable" of either "honesty, research or both."

In Part II, I plan to show some of White's claims to be a "student" of Islam rather than an "expert" in Islam are, in strange ways, baffling at best.

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter lumpkins]

Bob,

I found your comment in the spam bucket. I think the links surpassed the limits for the comment thread. I posted it above. But since it is so far up the thread, I reposted it below.

With that, I am...
Peter

[originally by Bob L. Ross (reposted by PL)]

Dear Peter:

James White has been known to be wrong before. Here are a few examples of some items on which we have demonstrated on the Calvinist Flyswatter blog that James is wrong:

1 John 5:1:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2010/03/white-lightnin-again-on-1-john-51.html

C. H. Spurgeon:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2006/03/james-white-born-again-before-faith.html

Peter Ruckman:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2008/08/white-to-revise-books.html

1689 Baptist Confession on Regeneration:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2008/08/james-white-baptist-confession.html

Non-Reformed and Debating:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2008/08/white-lightnin-strikes-again.html

MacArthur Study Bibles:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2008/05/whites-dandy-declaration.html

The Raising of Lazarus:
http://writingsofbobross.tripod.com/0056.htm

His Semi-Pelagianism:
http://writingsofbobross.tripod.com/0053.htm

Bob L. Ross:
http://writingsofbobross.tripod.com/0087.htm

John MacArthur's former views which JMac later recanted:
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2008/05/whats-eating-james-white.html
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2006/04/what-does-james-white-believe-about.html

Paul and his "horse" (?)
http://writingsofbobross.tripod.com/0090.htm
http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2006/03/odd-logic-of-james-white.html#c114282668055983565

-- Bob L. Ross
Pilgrim Publications
http://www.pilgrimpublications.com

[Don Johnson]

David B. Hewitt,

You can't be serious in saying James White's constant, relentless attacks on Ergun Caner are for the "glory of God."

[michael]

One Scriptural comment I believe should be received well in here with regard to yourself, Peter, Dr. Caner and Dr. White:

Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Why?

Because I just cannot find anyone who speaks well of all three of you in the same sentence! :)

[Tim G]

Peter,
While touring the sites of the Protesters and attackers I am now seeing where they are giving proof that the Educational Background is indeed valid - Dr. Caner does have an earned verifiable Doctorate. Thus now the only claim left is whether or not he was a devout Muslim because they have already concurred that he was a former Muslim.

And yes, they even link to your site for the Dissertation proof.

Question: Why are some still using a man's site that says he is a Fake Ex Muslim?

Nice work Peter!

[Mary]

What's really astounding to me is that people who claim only Calvinist truly understand the Sovereignty of God really and truly believe that God needs them to continue posting and reposting the same ol same ol, day after day because God will not pick up the ball on this one and see His will be done. For arguments sake imagine that Ergun Caner is guilty of every bad thing he's been alleged to be. Let's also imagine that Liberty U is full of politicians and hypocrites (not one man of God to be found) who care more about their bottom line and reputations and exonarate Caner on all counts. No punishment, no public chatisement, no repentance zero zilch nada. Will GOD be mocked? How can anyone who knows God think that HE will stand by and continue to allow HIS church (this isn't about us, our reputation, our witness to Muslims or yada yada fill in the blank) be mocked, at the end of the day will GOD be mocked? Does God really need bloggers to continue to fight for the truth and integrity. At what point is enough enough and people have just become so enraptured with themselves that it's not really about God anymore, but about their pride in "fighin' the fight" so in love with themselves that they enjoy playing the victim of "people" who want them to be quiet, but by golly they gotta fight for God because God sure can't do it without them and He needs their righteous indination. I mean the information is out there for anyone interested to examine - the lamestream media (isn't it glorious that the media has noticed us!) has picked up the story and now Liberty is forced to carry out an "official" investigation. What more could God need from humans? At what point do you let go and let God? These people are so full of themselves and their vendetta that they've wandered into this God clearly cannot do this without me. In my over thirty years of SBC life I just have to shake my head at people who all of sudden have noticed OMG! there're sinners in the SBC! and you know what they've always been there and they always will - I have been hit on by ministers, I have been lied to by ministers, I have been lied about by ministers - name it and I could probably share a personal story or knowledge of someone close who has seen it - and every time I've come across those less than sanctified people in authority God has dealt with them - not always in the time or way I would have chosen, but you better believe God deals with sin among people in authority. God is on His throne and HE will always be glorified and He does not take kindly to those who use their positions of authority nwisely and I also know that He does not take kindly to those who would use the fall (assuming anyone has actually fallen) the fall of a brother or sister to glorify themselves and claim they're only doing the Lord's work and fightin' for Him. He does not need us for anything.

That's my rant - as messed up as the SBC is and yes the SBC has "issues" I stay with it because I haven't seen anyone who does better Great Commission Work and the knowledge that every church/denomination has it's issues. People who think their church is a "model" church are a little bit drunk on kool-aid or are under the influence of some cult. No church is "model" It's like families - we're all dysfunctional in our own dysfunctional way - because we are all sinners period end of story and rant.

[Phillip]

Peter,

Interest post. Do you have the whole dissertation, or just the title page?

[Eric Opsahl]

Let me qualify my statement. I suppose this is off topic. I am a listener of Elder white. I am fully reformed in Doctrine because it is fully taught in scripture. I'm reading this site because I'm curious what the other "camp" is saying about this issue. I have wondered if my following this issue is wrong. When I say Other camp, it is only limited to this issue. As brothers in Christ, we are already in the same "Camp".

Regarding what Mary wrote. I like Her perspective. As one who believes God is sovereign in all things, I've also wondered why this has been ratcheted up to the current level. I believe Mr. Caner should answer the issue. I don't know what else can be said, the evidence has been exposed thru all the utube and radio interviews. An example of ratcheting it up would be exposing Mr. Caners speeding tickets. The fact is, It's none of my business to know how many speeding tickets Caner has. It is "the business" for his boss at Liberty but not anyone else. I'm at a loss for understanding why Elder White would mention this. I would ask him if he had comments open on his Blog.

[volfan007]

Mary,

Amen, Sister!

David

[Don Johnson]

Mary,

Loved the lamestream media line.

Eric,

Just had to say I'm NOT fully Reformed in Doctrine because its NOT taught in Scripture.

I haven't heard of the speeding tickets. I wonder what's next maybe jaywalking or some other horrendous crime (John 8:7).

Also you are the first Calvinist I know that would dare question James White. I commend you for that.

[Phillip]

Peter,

I'd like to retract my prior question and pose a different one. I'd appreciate an answer--it would only take a minute, I think. Here's the question:

**At the time that you posted this this entry (5-31-10, 10:41pm according to your blog entry info), did you actually have in your possession Dr. Caner's complete doctoral dissertation, or just a portion of it, and if just a portion, which portion did you have at that time?

Please note: I have not insulted your or anyone else on this thread. I'm not cheerleading for one side or another. I'm not a White devotee or a Lumpkins devotee. My *impression* is that you've ignored my initial query, but if you tell me that you haven't I'll take your word for it. I'm not concerned anymore to ask that initial question anyway.

But I would appreciate the courtesy of an answer to my second question. Thank you, sir.

[A.M. Mallett]

I long ago ceased to be amazed at Mr. White's antics. This poor soul has climbed into bed with Muslims to extract some measure of revenge for being slighted over a mindless debate. When he questions the academic credentials of someone, I can only wonder where the Whiteheads are hiding with regard to Mr. White's fraudulent "doctorates".

[JB]

No it does not appear that Ergun Caner did graduate study in the area of Islamic Studies at the University of South Africa. His degree was in the area of Systematic Theology. From the University of South Africa's website, it would appear that this falls under the department of Philosophy and Systematic Studies. Islamic Studies falls under the Religious Studies and Arabic department at the University of South Africa. With that, I am ... left to conclude that at least at the doctoral level Dr. Caner did not do Islamic Studies.

[peter]

JB,

Please. Your notion is silly on its surface. Also it assumes no overlap between departments. Look at the subject of the thesis; it definitively deals with an Islamic theme.

With that, I am...
Peter