Troy Gramling Responds by Peter Lumpkins

Raul Palacios, Executive Pastor, Flamingo Road Church (FRC), Cooper City, Florida, and husband to Heather Palacios, teaching Pastor at FRC, posted a link to Lead Pastor, Troy Gramling’s response to questions raised concerning the recent announcement about his nomination to presidency of the Southern Baptist Convention Pastor’s Conference.

We thank Pastor Palacios for furnishing us with this link.

Furthermore, we’re grateful Pastor Gramling took seriously the questions raised toward his nomination, even if the questions were being raised by those outside the sphere of leadership in the Southern Baptist Convention.

I encourage everyone to read Gramling’s statement.  It's written well; it's warm, and it allows the readers some meaningful snippets into Gramling’s heart and life. There is little doubt Pastor Gramling has been used of the Lord in tremendous ways. 

Also, it remains without question Pastor Gramling has been a significant, positive influence in many people’s lives.  Concerning this we cannot doubt.  However, we must unequivocally state the criticisms we publicized never raised doubts about either Gramling’s gifts of ministry, Christian heritage, or the many whom he has led to Christ.

Rather we raised two issues.

First, we questioned Gramling’s poor record of Cooperative Program giving at 0.18%, arguing such a miserly amount not only shows no conviction about cooperative missions with Southern Baptists, but also flies in the face of the GCRTF interim report which insists the Cooperative Program of the Southern Baptist Convention is the “central means of supporting Great Commission ministries.”    

Second, we raised the issue of whether Gramling ought to be nominated as president of the Pastors’ Conference since his church embraced a gender egalitarian leadership template which significantly challenges the Baptist Faith and Message’s clear statement on gender complementarianism.

Hence those are the only two questions raised so far as I know.  And, Gramling offered answers to both of these questions. 

Allow me.

In his statement, Gramling answers the second question we raised first—On Women Pastors.  Gramling writes:

We do have women who speak, much like Beth Moore, Lottie Moon, Bertha Smith and many other gifted ladies of the SBC past and present. They have teaching gifts and it seems confusing to differentiate between teaching, preaching, speaking, sharing, a word of testimony etc. If one is speaking to the congregation it is assumed they are sharing something of value from the Scriptures. We have not ordained women pastors or deacons.

I see three significant assertions in this statement: a) Yes, we have women who speak but such is quite normal in SBC life;  b) distinctions between teaching, preaching, etc are confusing; c) FRC has not ordained women

O.K.

Let’s unpack this. 

First, for argument’s sake, granting it may be  normal for women to speak in SBC life, what is not normal is for women to bear the title “Pastor.”  No matter how confusing  the distinction may be between teaching, preaching, sharing, and etc. to Gramling, the larger question is, is there confusion about the title and office of “Pastor”?

In fact, I did not raise the issue of women teaching, I raised the issue of women pastors.  In addition, even if distinctions between preaching on the one hand and sharing on the other are difficult to manage, accuracy in “rightly dividing the word of truth” would seem to demand it.

And, while it’s good to know Flamingo Road Church does not ordain women as pastors, again this really does not answer the question I raised.  Ordination does not make one a pastor.  Neither does ordination’s absence prohibit one from being a pastor.  If I am not mistaken, even Charles Spurgeon was not ordained.  Was he then not a pastor?

The fact is, the women whom Gramling says simply “speak” in the church, doing what is but normal for the SBC both past and present, are publicly perceived far differently than what Gramling is now suggesting.  

Consider.

Gramling himself regularly introduces Heather Palacios as “Pastor Heather.”  Palacios lists her vocation as “Pastor” and other congregants regularly refer to her as “Pastor” on her blog and elsewhere.  At a conference at Willow Creek, she was introduced as “Pastor Heather Palacios.”  From my standpoint, Gramling cannot dismiss the entitlement he and the church has everywhere given to her by now suggesting she only “speaks.”  In fact, this is horribly unfair to her from my standpoint.

We cannot have it both ways.

Incidentally, Gramling did not deny FRC had ordained women serving the church.  He said FRC has not ordained women.  One can easily obtain ordination papers via the internet (I had a lady in one of my churches who did just that so she could perform weddings).  The question to answer is, are there women pastors on FRC staff who are ordained?

Another question to ask is, are there women who are pastors on FRC staff who are licensed to the gospel ministry?  While this may not appear relevant, I assure you it is. There may be surfacing very soon disappointing news concerning an abuse in this particular area.  It involves a high profile church licensing women to the ministry and subsequently gaining the IRS tax credit. 

Nor can Gramling all of a sudden change his title from “Lead Pastor” to “Senior Pastor.” In his response, as he introduced his present ministry, he wrote, “I now live in South Florida and am the senior pastor at Flamingo Road Church” (emphasis mine).  However, his position listed on the website is Lead Pastor (//link).  The difference has been significant to Gramling. The South Florida Sun-Sentinel observes:

Gramling took over executive responsibility for the church three months ago, but he is hesitant to be called the Senior Pastor. “Our approach is team based,” he said. “The concept of Senior Pastor does not carry out that idea.” Gramling said that he prefers the concept of Lead Team Pastor” (//link).

According to the way I read this, Gramling chooses “Lead Pastor” over “Senior Pastor” because of philosophical reservations.  His own church website bears out this deliberate distinction.  If I am correct, when facing objections to his nomination, Gramling’s distinction suddenly loses its attractiveness.

For me, therefore, Troy Gramling did not offer any clarity whatsoever to the issue I raised.  Indeed his response only raised another tier of questions.

Gramling moves on to respond to his church’s poor Cooperative Program participation.  He explains:

“Reflecting on the financial commitment we ask of our leaders at Flamingo Road Church, I realize it is a mistake to not be more financially invested in the Cooperative Program. Therefore, win or lose an election, we are going to significantly increase our financial commitment to the Cooperative Program.”

I am glad after reflection Troy Gramling realizes it is a mistake to not be more financially invested in the Cooperative Program.  This is very good to hear. 

On the other hand, to suggest, only after one’s intended nomination has been publicly announced, not to mention after it’s obvious the 0.18% will not communicate well to the thousands of small church pastors who will attend the Pastor’s Conference…to then respond  “we are going to significantly increase our financial commitment to the Cooperative Program” is no more persuasive than the conveniently disappearing distinction between “Lead Pastor” and “Senior Pastor” above. 

Even from Gramling’s own leadership paradigm such an offer hardly makes sense.  Does Gramling reward "leaders" who have consistently failed and shown no significant engagement or participation in the vision of the church by promoting them to a public platform for the others in the church to mimic or be inspired?  I think not. 

Nor do I think any amount of promises the uninvolved “leader” could make about “significantly increasing” his or her participation would sway Gramling.  Yet Gramling wants us to do just that.

I'm sorry.  I just do not see it works that way.

For my part, Troy Gramling’s statement does not answer the serious questions raised toward his nomination as president of the Pastors’ Conference of Southern Baptist Convention. Indeed his response raises more questions and leaves cloudy the ones we've explored.

With that, I am…

Peter

Comments

[Scott Morgan]

Peter,

When I Google Heather's name I find that she is called Pastor Heather... One simple question... If Heather speaks in the pulpit with an open Bible then she is preaching to men which is a violation of 1 Cor 14. Really ...it's that simple to point out !

I have serious questions about the wisdom of John Cross with his recommendation of Troy. If you are going to be part of the SBC then one would think that each church would support the BFM 2000. Peter, we may disagree on Calvinism but I agree so much with you on this one.

[peter]

Thanks Scott. And yes, it's good to agree for a change :^)

Check out the response Troy Gramling has made to the issues raised.

Grace, brother.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Bart Barber]

The statement explicitly says that they affirm the 1963 Baptist Faith & Message. This seems to be a direct statement that they are not in affirmation of the present version of the Baptist Faith & Message. Or do I misread the statement?

And if they are in disagreement with the statement of faith that, more than anything else in Southern Baptist life, represents the Conservative Resurgence, then how can they be in such deep appreciation of the Conservative Resurgence? This is a well-written, poorly-thought-through statement, in my estimation.

[Barry D. Bishop]

Peter,
you are a bit of a gadfly and tend to provoke strong responses from your readers. However, you always make me think deeply about the topics that you post on. Thanks for your contributions--especially these on Pastor Gramling and Flamingo Road Baptist. The information you have provided is very important for Baptists to know about a leadership candidate.

[Scott Morgan]

Peter,

I forgot to mention that I now serve with James Merritt at Cross Pointe Church as the Pastor of Discipleship....We once talked on phone about getting together somewhere in Atlanta to chat on some topics... Would love to do so. BTW, I'm a closed communion Baptistic Calvinist... :) so if you won't mind having lunch ...I'll buy...Mary Macs ?? Good southern food downtown Atlanta. BTW, good posts on the Emergent topics. I think we will find that the emergent view of the church is really blinding some of our younger guys to the issue of women pastors and a belief that all denominational stuff is worthless. I think the Lord for the SBC..not perfect but an SBC church reached out to me with the gospel and taught me the Scriptures. We need men who back up their thankfulness for the SBC. Peter, on a very serious note: I truly believe calvinist like me and noncalvinist who love the Scriptures like you may come to see that we are alot closer on more things than the emergent movement that is killing our churches. I can fellowship anyday with men like Frank Cox,Johnny Hunt, Jerry Vines,Patterson, and Ergun Caner than some of the emergent leanings that I think your post points out. Hope you feel the same about Nettles, Mohler,Ascol, and Dever. I see potential for these men working closer than the emergent guys. What say you ?

[Scott Morgan]

Peter,

Forgive my grammer and spelling on the previous post... Tired !!

[Robin Foster]

Peter

You have brought out some great points. With the way things are going, it would not shock me if Presbyterians were invited to the SOUTHERN BAPTIST pastors conference to preach ...... uh ...... nevermind. ;-)

[volfan007]

Robin,

:)

Peter, like you're saying, if she's called Pastor Heather; teaches in the pulpit; and is listed as Pastor Heather by the Church; then it's very clear that they look upon her as an Elder/Pastor, whether she's ordained, or not. That is in clear violation of the BFM2k, and for the life of me, I cant understand why a man with this belief would be nominated for a leadership position in the SBC? The CP giving just kind of tops that off. And, the man, who's gonna nominate him, is a member of the GCTF?????? wow.

David

[Mark]

I'm glad Gramling is leading his church in doing some good work in his community. We should take nothing away from him in that regard.

However, this does not mean he should get to serve in a leadership position of the SBC just because someone has nominated him and he now sees how he should be more involved. As much as I hate to say it, I think there is an illustration here with Obama getting the Nobel Prize for what he said he's going to do.

I think it would actually speak volumes if Mr. Gramling came out publicly declining the nomination. He could then explain that he plans to be involved in the future, etc.

Even so, there is still the question of female pastors on his church staff...

[Tim Rogers]

Brother Peter,

I do not want to come across as; "nothing Brother Gramling could do would change my mind", but he clearly is trying hard to get this position. It is his effort to be seen as a typical SB that is turning my thoughts away from his nomination. While his present positions certainly will garner suspect and criticisms, his desire to move away from them and reposition himself on paper speaks volumes as well. What does it say about someone willing to now refer to himself as "Senior Pastor" when all along he has told his church and his staff that he is merely "Lead Pastor"? I pray that he does increase his giving. However, if one will look at the $$'s given to the CP and then look at the Annuity amount needed from the churches for those giving to the Annuity at Guidestone, one may be surprised that these figures balance. If he has 10 ministerial staff members giving $105 per month to Guidestone retirement, then the FBSC adds $17 and also a disability and sudden death policy. In NC this cost $600 per church and I am certain it would be similar cost in Fl. We find that $6000 of FRC's CP would go to pay for these benefits for their own staff. According to FBSC Bylaws, each church must give $250 to the CP in order to be in friendly cooperation. That brings us to $6250. According to the ACP FRC gave $6,450 to CP. It appears that FRC has given every bit of $450 for mission support through the CP. Of that $450, $250 was required. Thus, $200 was freely given to the CP in support of the SBC. Oh yea, this is truly a church that desires to freely work together with other SB of like mind.

Blessings,
Tim

Blessings,
Tim

[cb scott]

Tim,

You make a good point about state annuity contributions. And this is not the first time it has been revealed relating to the CP giving of a church and the purpose behind it involving a person being nominated to a position in the SBC.

Also, the "sudden departures" from past practices you mention in your comment and the theological issues Peter has focused on should alert SBC messengers to genuine problems. Then Bart brings the matter of the 1963 BF&M versus the 2000 BF&M being the one affirmed by the church is also questionable.

Yet, my greatest concern for the well-being of the SBC as a whole in this particular matter is the fact that an active member of the GRCTF is promoting Tony Gramling's nomination as president of the Pastors' Conference. Therein for me lies the greatest problem with nomination overall.

[D.R. Randle]

Probably my biggest concern about the guy is that he does not affirm the BF&M 2000. I want to know why and I think he should tell us if he wants us to vote him in as the President of the Pastor's Conference. The SBC adopted the 2000 statement, so why hasn't he? This seems very suspect. He also needs to directly answer the question of whether he sees himself as an egalitarian or a complementarian.

[Ericka Vales]

I'm been attending Flamingo Road Church since 2005. My life was devastated but I had an encounter with Heather Palacios while she was leading a small group for woman called 'Leahership' I would never visited a church lead by a man due to some pain in my heart caused by wrong decisions. On that group, my heart was healed, and I start attending regular services and listening to Pastor Troy Gramling. Since then, my life was transformed. I was baptized in obedience to the God's word, and I'm been on a spiritual growing process since then. I don't understand why you question so much the capabilities of a woman like Heather Palacios to pastor woman like me... without her, I would be dead at this point in my life. The fact you are attacking her and Pastor Troy, just because Heather Palacios is doing what God called her to do I believe is unfair. I'm not a theologists but I know that Paul wrote a letter to the Church of Corinthians on the Capter 14, verse 33 (KJ) says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church". This verse out of context says: Woman, be quiet, silent, don't speak. But Also on the 1st Chapter of that letter Paul explains to whom is that letter concerned. 1 Cor. 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:" I don't know if Heather Palacios is an Ordained or not Ordained pastor, but she is completing God's work following his voice and she has been transformed many womans life sharing God's word. When I start attending Flamingo there was only 1700 people every weekend... now there is an average of more that 12,000 souls... since 2005 i know than more than 7000 people have been baptized, just like me and most of them MAN and WOMAN that they never experienced Christ before, and now God changed their life for eternity, just because Troy Gramling is fulfilling the Great Commission stated on the Bible. I just ask to those who are against woman speaking at church, here on US, TODAY, not at Corintia 2000 years ago... Who should be teaching our kids?, Who has to help woman in distress?, Who has to lead bible studies? I'm so glad that I never was invited to a Church like the ones that you are stating that they are doing "What is right" I can see how those churches are dying, not reaching the community, only showing themselves how good they are... my final comment is only one scripture:

Matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

On this scripture Jesus himself instructed ALL, not only man, not only woman, to teach, instruct and to baptize.

I really believe that Troy Gramling and Heather palacios are doing something really really good, because God is showing them Support...

Also Paul warned us to be afraid of fall in vain discussions... The spirit of God, is to UNITE, and the enemy is to DIVIDE... On which side are you?

Thanks for this space to share my opinion.

Best Regards

Ericka Vales.

[peter]

Ericka,

Thank you for your warm note and especially your testimony about how God has used Heather as well as Brother Troy in magnificent ways in your transformation by the Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

Know none of the critique is to be taken personally toward anyone. When we have biblical based positions, for us, it is a matter of principle. I suspect such is the same for both Heather and Troy, and I hope you.

Hence, because of my understanding of Scripture, principle cannot allow me to overlook the issues I've raised.

Lord continue to bless you in a real, lasting way.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Anita Lee]

Brother Peter:

I just want you to know that I agree with Ericka's post 100%, I also attend Flamingo Road Church since 2006 and I accepted Christ for the first time in my life, when she invited me and I'm serving there since 2007. I was baptized on 2008 and I'm also learning the purpose of God in my Life. Thanks to Pastor Heather Palacios I recovered my marriage and my family, My husband accepted Christ also, two of my sisters also got saved and I never visited a church before because I always heard the way woman was considered on most of the churches... Now I see that I was lucky to attend for the first time to Flamingo. I can tell you, just because of Pastor Troy Gramling and Pastor Heather Palacios my life and the life of at least 10 (ten) close relatives was transformed by God.

I don't know about your background or your religion studies, but I believe that Christianity is about love and support to each other following God's word. So my recommendation is: Stop attacking your own brothers and sisters, and let's unite to fight the real enemy who is trying to destroy our families, our marriages, our children and our society. Get what is good for your, and if you don't agree with everything your brother Troy Gramling is doing, then pray, ask God for wisdom and do what Paul asked the Corithian womans to do...

Thanks. God bless you and your family too.

[volfan007]

Ericka,

No one is saying that women cant teach other women. That is Biblical. The Bible tells the older women to teach the younger.

No one is saying that women cant teach children. They can, and they should. And, we thank God for all the women out there, who are willing to teach women and children.

Also, no one is saying that women cant witness to the lost. They should, and it's Biblical to do so. Amen to all the women, who proclaim the Gospel to lost people.

But, the Bible is very clear that a woman should not be the Pastor/Elder of a Church. The Bible is very clear that a woman should not be the authority over men in teaching doctrine. They should not be the authority in doctrine, and should not be looked upon as the ones in charge over Biblical teaching over men. That is very plain and clear.

So, if your Church believes that Pastor Heather, and any other Pastor Feminine, can be a Pastor/Elder in the Church; then they're violating a very important, clear teaching of the Bible. And, Southern Baptists would not need a leader that does not believe in our basic beliefs about the clear teachings of Scripture.

Now, do we all rejoice in here at how God has used Flamingo Road Church to reach lost people...yes. I would also rejoice over how God used an Assembly of God Church to reach people for the Lord. But, I also would not want an Assembly of God Pastor to lead the SBC. Does that make sense and clear up what Peter and others of us are trying to say here?

Also, your Church gives a very, very small percentage to the Cooperative Program, which is the way that SB Churches support the mission work and other ministries of our SB Churches. So, why would we want a leader of our SBC to be someone, who's Church barely gives to SB work? I mean, yall only give what? .18 percent of your budget I believe? .18....not even 1 percent to SB causes. Do you not see this as troublesome? I wonder if your Pastor would be happy about everyone in the Church just giving .18 percent of their net salary to the Church? I wonder if yall's Church would be able to do all that yall do with that tiny giving?

David

[Ericka Vales]

Peter:

Thanks for your response :) I'm not taking it personally, and I understand your position, I just wanted to share that I'm one of the Fruits of God's work trough Flamingo Road Church, and God used Pastor Heather and Pastor Troy for that purpose. God cannot go against himself. And I hope you and your ministry continue growing as well as the vision God has given you. I don't believe Pastor Troy postulated himself to your SBC, so if you don't agree with him, his work or his ministry, you have your privilege to vote for him or not... that's your privilege, and let others do the same...

Anita: I'm so glad for what God has done with you... and I'm sure He'll do a lot more.

David: Again, I don't think Pastor Troy postulated himself for your SBC, but if he was postulated, I think it was because he is doing something good, don't you think so? If you don't like him, awesome... don't vote for him... I would like to add a quote to my comment: James 3:8-11 says "But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening?" Thanks for taking your time to give me your response, and let's focus our efforts to do the Great Commission.

God Bless you!!!

Ericka Vales :)

[clydz]

this is interesting
I am a Primitive Baptist and I can assure you we are not even close to southern baptist or reformed baptest. Would like to set the record straight (where is the spell checker I can't spell worth beans)

[Robert I Masters]

Erica and Anita,
Its really not about Love of people but rather Love of God. Who will you serve today?

In Christ
Robert I Masters

still time to de-affiliate FRC from the SBC

[volfan007]

Erica,

Whether your Pastor postulated himself for the SBC, or not, is not the issue. The issue is that he is being nominated for the President of the SBC Pastors Conference. So, he's being nominated.

So, for all of us out here in Southern Baptist land, we need to determine whether he's what we need as a leader. It's not about whether we like him, or not. It's not about us trying to talk "bad" about him. It's about whether we feel that he's qualified to lead in our SBC.

A lot of us are saying that he's not what we want in a SBC leader. His Church barely gives anything to support SB work and missions. And, he has female Pastors/Elders at his Church, which goes against our basic beliefs of the Bible.

Thus, we feel as we do.

David

[Jeremy S.]

Robert, are you even serious?

Life is about loving God and loving people. Christ made that clearly when asked what the greatest commandment was and he responded to love God, and love your neighbor.

Serve God but love others. That is exactly what Heather and Pastor Troy Gramling are doing. They are serving God and loving others.

Just because something may not line up completely to your liking, does not discredit the amazing work that God is doing at churches like Flamingo. I have a friend who attends, and her life has been changed by the staff there too. If you want to have everything be traditional rather than be effective then do so. But don't cast stones at churches that God obviously is moving at and changing lives, like my friend's at.

[Robert I Masters]

Jeremy S,
He who Loves God keeps His commandments ie God has said(commanded); I do not permit women to teach....
Why is it so hard to obey the Bible?
Secondarily the SBC has agreed with this statement and has severed ties to those local churches! Do you think FRC should be an exception to this confession.

As an aside: the Mormons change lives too, as well as Muslims, and even Presidents!!!!! Should we say God is moving amonst those people for His Glory?

So Yes I am radically serious.

SDG
Robert I Masters

[JR]

Robert,

A. The SBC has not disfellowshipped churches with female senior pastors. The Georgia Baptist Convention has. They are two seperate entities.

B. FRC does not have a female senior/lead pastor.

C. If you wish to compare the work God is doing at FRC with the work of cults, that is your perogative. Yet it brings to light a more concerning aspect of your position.

Anita and Ericka,

Praise God for the awesome transformation he has brought about in your lives! Please don't be discouraged by any who might seek to discredit that.

[Robert I Masters]

Anita and Erica,

A. You are correct on this point.
Although the senior part is irrelevant.

B. Who cares...they have a female pastor.

c.my point to Jeremy was that transformed or changed lives do not necc validate the correctness of the change or the doctrine taught for that matter.
Just because Joel Osteen has one of the largest churches in America doesn't validate his ministry. This is what jeremy seemed to imply in his last paragraph!.

Scripture where is Scripture?

This article was especially relevant to this topic.
http://www.baylyblog.com/2010/03/preaching-and-the-feminization-of-discourse.html#more

SDG
Robert I Masters

[peter]

Jeremy & JR,

I had a reason for not engaging Anita & Ericka. On the other hand, both of you are bringing up points dealt with thoroughly either in the op or the thread. I suggest you be content with that and stop rehashing those points which have little to no weight.

Robert,

While we substantially agree on this point, nothing will further the conversation by either engaging Gramling's flock or Jeremy & JR whose failed points are redundant.

Thanks.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Jeremy S.]

Robert, the only thing you are is radically legalistic and unwilling to acknowledge culture and change. Also, comparing Muslims to Christian lifechange is day and night. Way to get out in left field there!

Peter, kind of funny how you get to choose what issues have little to no weight. That is completely relative. To me, female pastors are not an issue and have little to no weight. Get off your high horse and quit being so prideful about what you know. Calling my points failed without expanding is also very nice of you, way to elaborate. Every time you are experience opposition, you can't just say they are invalid points. Life change going on at FRC hardly seems like a failed or invalid point.

[peter]

Jeremy,

First, I said jack squat about issues having little to no weight. Rather, I asserted the points both you and JR are bringing up have been "dealt with thoroughly either in the op or the thread." So, you may stop laughing now.

Second, since you bring up my deciding whether issues have weight or not, I'll go ahead and state, contrary to your view, I most certainly will decide what issues are important to discuss on this site. And, if you are not in agreement, be my guest. Nonetheless, I will continue to judge what issues will or will not be discussed.

Third, I gave a specific reason why the points you are making are not contributing further to this exchange. I still maintain that reason.

Fourth, do not log back on this site and lecture me about being on a 'high horse' and 'prideful'. If you cannot exchange without such personal but petty nonsense, then don't come back, Jeremy. You're welcome to do that on your own nickel elsewhere.

With that, I am...
Peter

[volfan007]

Jeremy S.,

Again, no one is saying that God is not using FRC in some way. Your Pastor may be a good man, who loves the Lord. This is not about whether you like your Pastor and your Church, or not. It's not about whether we like your Pastor, or your Church, or not. It's about your Pastor being a leader of any sort in the SBC.

Also, Jeremy, it's not legalistic to obey the Bible. I would certainly hope that you obey the Bible in the commands given to us in the NT. And, for a Christian to obey the commands and teachings of Jesus and the Apostles is not legalism. If we love God...really love Jesus....then, we'll obey Him and keep His commands. I John 2; I John 5:1-4; the book of James; and many, many other places in the NT talk about true Christians keeping the commands of Scripture. A woman being a Pastor/Elder is against the Bible. It's very clear. Too clear to ignore.

I saw the video of "Pastor Heather" standing up before the congregation...teaching them as a Pastor. Is that not true? Jeremy?

Robert Masters is telling you the truth in this matter. You should listen to what he's saying.

David

[Ericka Vales]

Thanks for your comments! I believe that all we do should be to honor God and his word. I invite you... better yet... I challenge you to go and experience ONE service at Flamingo Road Church. Listen to Pastor Heather Palacios teachings, listen to Pastor Troy Gramling teachings, listen to Pastor Garland Robertson Teachings, listen to Pastor Brian Vasil Teachings, or listen to Pastor Matt Miller teachings. All you find is one God, reaching people, changing people for life, restoring marriages, rescuing teenagers and fulfilling the great commission. You will find common people attending and serving faithfully 12 services every weekend, reaching, teaching, baptizing... inviting. What is the goal of a pastor? What is the biggest challenge for a Pastor? If you don't want woman speaking is your personal belief, if you get Pastor Troy Gramling as your leader, you can learn leadership skills and get tools that will help and serve your churches to complete God's mission. I'm not going to discuss your position regarding female pastors, can be a never-ending story, but I can tell you this: You have many things you can learn from a leader like Troy Gramling... I you don't want it... you'll miss the bull's eye!. Christians should be supporting other Christians. God bless you.