« Alcohol & The Church: A Three Part Series by Peter Lumpkins | Main | The Conservative Resurgence, Girly Men, and the Southern Baptist Convention by Peter Lumpkins »

2010.03.19

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Scott Slayton

Well Peter, write today down on the calendar because I think that you are 100% right on this one. Electing this guy as President of the SBC would send very confusing signals about where we are headed as a convention.

peter

Scott,

I just did! It's in ink so you can't take it back ;^)
FYI, probably a typo, but I think you meant above
"President of the SBC [pastor's conference]" did you not?

With that, I am...
Peter

Pastor Troy in Florida

John Cross has gone off the deep end. If like-minded people such as Cross and Gramling take leadership in the SBC, you can kiss it goodbye. And maybe that's what these guys want.

Heartbreaking that we've gone from Rogers, Patterson, Vines, etc. to this group, should he be elected.

Tim Rogers

Brother Peter,

Well, now you have the Calvinist agreeing with you. Man, where are we going? Your position is based on Grambling's lack of support of the SBC and the Calvinist view him as not being a good nominee because he supports the seeker sensitive worship. However, we we end up together, then I applaud the fact we all see this person as not being good for SBC Leadership.

Blessings,
Tim

Scott Slayton

Peter, that is what I meant. My problem with him is actually his lack of CP support and his obviously being an egalitarian.

Mark

But Peter, don't you want to learn about LeadHerShip? ;)

Jacob Hall

I am in 100% agreement with you. Isn't having a woman on staff as a pastor an automatic red-flag for the nomination process because it is in contradiction to the BFM2000? His non-giving to the CP aside, isn't a direct contradiction to our Doctrinal statement enough to say "No, you can't be nominated"?

Les Puryear

Peter,

Let me add another voice of agreement to your post.

Bryant Wright decreases his CP giving and he is to be nominated for SBC President. Troy Gramling gives less to CP ($12,500) on overall receipts of $6.8M than my little church of 200 with total receipts of $337.7K who gives $23,859 to CP. My little church gave almost twice as much to CP as Gramling's huge church? And this guy is being presented as a model of leadership in the SBC?

If this is what the GCR "Great Commission giving" is going to come to, then I am going to vote against it. This is ridiculous.

Les

chadwick

The naked pastor could have the sex pastor (UBU) as a back-up nominator!

Bob Williford

Absurd and obviously outside the norm of the SBC that I have always known....apart from Biblical standards in leadership....NAKED????

cb scott

This is a truly sad thing.

Rick

Did you ever play the game as a young man, "How low can you go?" in which you try to pitch your voice lower than your friends? Everyone seems to say there should exist no threshold or litmus test for CP giving by our leaders, so here are our test cases to find out if that is really true: a President @ 3.5 percent and a Pastor's Conference President @ .18 percent! How low can we go? Churches have autonomy in setting their percentages, but the convention also has autonomy in setting our standards.

cb scott

The money, in this case, is not the issue. If this guy's church gave 90% to the CP and the rest to the IMB and NAMB he still should not elected.

BDW

Thanks for this post, Peter. You gave me something to blog about on my Friday night!

It appears that the Executive-Pastor is married to the Rev. Heather Palacios. Sounds like a good co-pastor team, Druid Hills-style.

Robert I Masters

Dr Lumpkins!!!!!

Let it be known that even in The Southern Baptist Geneva we are in 100 percent agreement we you on this one.

Why is this church an SBC church.I would hope someone offers a resolution to the convention in Orlando.They are clearly outside the BFM.

From the SBC Geneva

Robert I Masters

Rick

CB,
How about "money is only PART of the issue?" What if the woman pastor issue did not exist? Does .18% Cooperative Program giving really qualify one for leadership of an organization dependent on this type of cooperation to support its ministries? Anyway, concerning the spiritual stewardship issue, the idea is not that 90% CP giving would QUALIFY someone, it is that .18% CP giving should DISQUALIFY someone.

cb scott

Rick,

My point is that this candidate is not qualified no matter what he gives or does not give. I was actually using hyperbole to illustrate a point.

Did you listen to the woman's sermon? Even if a man preached that sermon, it was of the poorest type of what passes for preaching today. It was not the gospel. it was not of the counsel of God. It was not biblical preaching. Did you hear the concept of repentance? No. Yet, you did hear sin made light of and semi-glorified.

The pastor permitted this. Obviously this is a common serving for what passes as preaching in that church. He calls himself the 'naked" pastor. This is an appeal to people to come hear him because of their carnal minds. Why is not the biblical call Jesus used in Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the gospel" not sufficient to call people to a hearing of the gospel? Why is a call that appeals to the baser elements of human nature necessary?

This nomination is sad. This nomination is wrong. And if Southern Baptists affirm this nomination, the SBC is in a sad state of being. The SBC will be wrong.

William

Bryant Wright's church gives 5% to the CP and hundreds of thousands directly to the IMB and NAMB. He is above my threshold for SBC leadership.

Gramling, at an infintesimal 0.18% is below my threshold for even the pastor's conf. and he eclipses Ronnie Floyd whose 0.29% in 2006 helped to sink his presidential candidacy.

Whatever the CP problems, 0.18% is pathetic for a candidate for any SBC position.

joe white

Peter,

One word came to my mind as I read this article... SAD!

- It is sad that in the year of the GCRTF report, a man is to be nominated for President of the SBC Pastor's Conference that has the 3 stated goals of (1) More Campuses, (2) More Attendees, and (3) More Money. I am glad that early church leaders baptized converts and started churches; instead of just staying in Jerusalem and adding campuses and increasing their budget.

- It is sad that last year several churches in our area with under 100 members (and half of them on fixed incomes) gave more than Flamingo Road to the CP.

- It is sad that a man is being nominated whose church should not even be in friendly cooperation with the SBC.

- It is sad that there will be many Southern Baptists who see this nomination as a good thing.

Please Lord, wake us up before it is too late!

cb scott

"- It is sad that there will be many Southern Baptists who see this nomination as a good thing."

And Joe, they are legion. This particular flock of Wild Geese are far more dangerous than were the Old breed of liberals before the days of the CR.

The Seeking Disciple

I fear that should the SBC nominate an "emergent" feel guy, the SBC could be moving back toward another fight like we saw in the late 1980's with the moderates versus the conservatives over the Bible. The emergent movement is gaining ground in the SBC and that is a frightful thought.

Rick

William,

Just a factual issue regarding Bryant Wright's church. You mentioned their 5% CP giving as within your threshold, but I believe after reducing it from 10% to 5% they later reduced it even further from 5% to 3.5%. Is the 3.5% even below your threshold?

Let's take the GCRTF at their word and say that the Cooperative Program is indeed to be celebrated as the primary missions support channel in the SBC. If our "average" church gives 6.6%, do we really want to elect as leaders those who lead their own churches to support our primary missions channel at a "below average" level? Should we celebrate "below average" missions support or "above average" missions support? The grace giving above and beyond CP is not the point, since that is, at best, our "secondary" missions channel.

As for my vote, it will be reserved for a leader whose church demonstrates a level of missions support, through our primary Cooperative Program channel, that can at least be described as "above average" when compared with other leaders. For that matter, I hope to elect someone who is above average in other areas as well: preaching, leading, integrity, etc. I have no reservations concerning Bryant Wright's other qualifications, only the missionary support of our primary channel.

volfan007

Well, have you heard that this Church was the first Church to have a baptism onliine????? I'm not kidding. Here's the video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qThUe1-RvXU

Sad...very, very sad.

David

cb scott

Vol,

Is not the guy who intends to nominate this fellow on the GCRTF?

Robert I Masters

Peter,
Some more xml of Pastor Heather Palacio preachering.

video and audio

http://flamingoroad.org/FRCPodC/FRCPodcast.xml

Robert I Masters

William Thornton

In Wright's case, 3.5% (though I saw that the actual figure was 4.4% for 2009) coupled with strong direct giving to IMB and NAMB is above my threshold. Dollars pay bills, not percentages, as Adrian said years ago.

I don't have a litmus test, ie, the SBC president's church should give no less than the average SBC percentage to the CP. We would not have had the Conservative Resurgence were that the rule followed.

Ronnie Floyd with 0.29% was way below the threshold. Gramling with 0.18% is barely a Southern Baptist, seems to me. Wright is a very strong Southern Baptist who heavily supports all the SBC work.

volfan007

CB,

I didnt know that. He's on the GCTF. Good grief, is this where we're heading with all of this "hip, cool, evangelical ecumenism" stuff that's going on right now?

We're in trouble.

David

Dan

Pastor Heather Palacio on Wonder Woman: "I wore her on my t-shirt so you get to stare at her the whole time I'm talking." Uh...

http://www.vimeo.com/6836210

Mark

I think the GCTF being spoken of is the that the Florida state Convention is putting together. It's called the "Imagine If Great Commission Task Force" and has 31 people. I think this is bigger than the national GCTF. It seems like there are some influential people on this TF and I wonder if they will speak out.

Wigley

there's Some nice bitter blogging going on here huh ? I did not know you had to PAY YOUR WAY to these things via the CP--no wonder SBC is a declining denomination .. no money , no seat at the table huh? Lets keep the same ol' and do the same ol' .. it'll keep us in the same ol' direction.DECLINE! Thats whats truly Sad. I dont know Pr. Gramling or his church ... but based on John Cross' nomination I know that he has baptized more than all the churches represented here. Thats sad.. that we would post these things and attach SBC to it for the world to see and for my kids to one day pull up and research. We're sad bitter pastors & leaders who refuse to engage in a lost and dying world and instead taint the gospel with our silly discussions.

Wigley

Robert I Masters

Wigley,
Interesting that you would bring up the financial facts,
I think most would consider the women pastors the real issue and the convention has spoken on that issue loud and clear.
BTW-I not familiar with any declining denomination.....my local is growing well whilst also preaching and teaching the Gospel; not therapeutic pablum.

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

Mark

Wigley, what do you think would happen if all churches in the SBC reduced their CP giving to .18%? Tell me, would the SBC still exist? How about the Baptist state conventions?

I think some folks don't understand how and why the SBC exists.

cb scott

Wigley,

You don't know that Cross has baptized more than all the churches represented here. You don't know that at all.

Some may be bitter, but not all. Some are just sorry that the gospel is cheapened. If you want to talk about a tainted gospel listen to the sermons coming from Flamingo Road.

Rick

William,

Thanks for writing: "I don't have a litmus test, ie, the SBC president's church should give no less than the average SBC percentage to the CP. We would not have had the Conservative Resurgence were that the rule followed."

Very thought provoking. The CR leaders we all admire for correcting our theological course apparently shared a glaring weakness, namely, inadequate Cooperative Program missions support.

Fast forward to the current missions funding crisis. Could it be that while leaving us a very strong theological legacy, these leaders also left us with a very weak CP missions support legacy? If we keep the former and lose the latter will we not become both conservative and cooperative?

We keep looking for a Great Commission Resurgence but what if all along it has been hiding right there in strong Cooperative Program support?

peter lumpkins

All,

It looks as if the Video where Gramling introduces "Pastor Heather" several times has been taken down from public view.

With that, I am...
Peter

Robert I Masters

Peter,
XMl podcast of her preaching is still downloadable and available at my link above.

Gramling introduces here in those two podcasts of her preaching last Christmas.

Robert I Masters

BTW-----I have the previous video and others.....local.
she does not shy away from the title pastor.


peter lumpkins

Robert,

Thanks my brother for the heads up.

Peace.

With that, I am...
Peter

Don

Peter, Thank you so much for posting this. When I read this nomination I was amazed. I have known John Cross to be pretty solid (or so I thought), but this is totally unacceptable. Flamingo Road church is not an example I desire to follow, Gramling is not an example I personally wish to follow, and I hope we have some good solid candidates arise. I wondered aloud, "Have we come to this???" This goes to what I have been saying for years, we make a hero out of anybody who baptizes alot of people. I am with you, this could spell the end of the SBC, or be a clear sign of the end. Between this and Calvinism, I see the two extremes tearing us apart.

William

Mark, you state:"I think some folks don't understand how and why the SBC exists." I guess I may be 'some folks'. Please share, in a way 'some folks' may understand, how and why the SBC exists?

William

I need some help in understanding how the SBC Cooperative Program determines where funds come from, vs where they go? How does the CP decide who pays into the program, and who receives from the program?

Would a region with 5.4+ million people, from every corner of the world, that is over 93% UNCHURCHED; qualify as a region in need of support from the CP?

The bottom line – people around the world hear the gospel and receive Christ. -SBC EC website-

If we are to be missionaries, we must see every pocket of lostness, and design appropriate strategies for each. -NAMB website-

What does the NAMB website mean by "...see every pocket of lostness, and design appropriate strategies for each."?

How do we measure success in reaching people for Christ in such a challenging environment?


Mark

William, did you see my first questions?

-What do you think would happen if all churches in the SBC reduced their CP giving to .18%? Tell me, would the SBC still exist? How about the Baptist state conventions?-

The SBC under those conditions would not exist as we know it today or maybe at all.

The cash flow as I understand it is like this: local churches -> State Conventions -> SBC -> funds distributed to various entities according to the decided upon allocation.

The question for me is - why would someone want to have a leadership position in an organization that they essentially don't otherwise support?

Jacob Hall

Wigley,

Typing in all caps is middle-schoolish, tone it down a notch.

And yes, you are absolutely correct, if you don't give to the CP, you don't have a seat at the table. Atleast not the SBC CP funded table. Kind of like how you don't get a seat at the table of Red Cross without giving, or any other organization. It is not uncommon, or unfair, to require those who want to participate in the work of the convention at a directional level to show their commitment financially.

Wigley

SORRY JACOB

We all wish it were as simple as your bio huh ... ?

"I Suck, Jesus Saved Me. That's all that matters." - @jacobhall86

Money Matter$

Kevin Murray

Sad that is a word that describes all of this. Sad that people could be more concerned about a convention than a conversion. I agree Flamingo could have given more money to the convention but what about the hundreds of folks that have come to know Christ as their Savior. I don't hear anyone talking about that, isn't that really what the Southern Baptist Convention was formed to help do? Yes there are much smaller churches that gave more money, how about the churches that didn't Baptize one person. Sounds to me like you would rather nominate a pastor who baptizes nobody yet gives 10 percent of the church budget. If that's the case your right Troy is not the right choice. I don't agree with everything Troy does myself, but then again I don't agree with everything the Southern Baptist Convention does either, but that hasn't stopped me from leading the church I pastor to support the convention through cooperative program giving. My advice to you Troy, keep leading people to Jesus and doing so in creative ways. (a parable was considered creative in Jesus day)

Kevin

peter

Kevin,

Thanks for logging one of the few dissenting comments, arguing in another direction for Troy Gramling. Unfortunately, none of your concerns actually addressed the issues I raised.

Moreover, to suggest either I or others dismiss even a single lost soul coming to Christ is entirely unfair. Indeed I rejoice over any soul who comes to Christ no matter the affiliation--Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, and yes even within a Catholic communion in spite of Rome's insurmountable theological deficiencies. How could I not rejoice? On the other hand, how could I allow that to weigh-in whether or not I formally accept any of the other communities into ecclesial relationship?

Hence, this issue is not about successful evangelism, but a proven method of doing successful evangelism--The Cooperative Program. I have no beef with Troy Gramling doing evangelism another way. What is completely unacceptable is, for us to make him the representative of an entire convention of churches whose proven way is not his way.

And, since you didn't bring up the theological issue--egalitarianism--neither shall I.

With that, I am...
Peter

The comments to this entry are closed.