« Excursion: Whats in a Name? Changing the Name of the Southern Baptist Convention by Peter Lumpkins | Main | Conclusion: What's in a Name? Changing the Name of the Southern Baptist Convention »

2010.01.20

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David R. Brumbelow

Very interesting information. My vote goes with those who chose to, forever put the matter to rest and keep the name, Southern Baptist Convention.
David R. Brumbelow

Dave Miller

For anyone who might read this, I have tried to clarify this issue to Peter, but let me speak clearly to the reader.

In his footnote above, Peter says, "According to him (me), apparently those of us like myself who are not convinced there exists a worthy enough tension between retaining “southern” and discarding it to justify the resources to change it are embracing deception!" That is, in my mind, not an accurate portrayal of what I said.

I did not say that Peter or anyone else was "embracing deception." I said the name is misleading - it gives a deceptive view of who we are; a regionally focused denomination.

I would invite you to follow Peter's link and see what I really said.

peter

Dave,

The reason I place links to sources (when possible) is for the decided purpose of encouraging readers to judge for themselves whether the quotes I offer and/or the conclusions I draw are warranted. Hence, I'm delighted if a reader follows the link. And if they do, I'm sure they can make up their own mind about it.

Your main heading stands: "Our name is deceptive and should be changed." And your explanation, stands: "Our name gives a deceptive impression. It is not an intentional lie, but as the denomination changed, the name stayed the same."

Yet to argue, as do you, it's "unintentional" deception is profoundly confusing, Dave. Intended or unintended it nonetheless is deception in your view.

Hence, it implicates those like myself who do not agree with your point on dropping "southern"...it implicates us as embracing, at minimum, unintentional deception; but still deception nonetheless.

And to place this issue in moral categories like you have done, Dave, makes only for sharp division.

But instead of dealing with the point I made, you dismissively counsel I should go back and read your post again.

Sorry, Dave. My time is limited. Until you can make sense to me of your own point, I'll just have to pass.

Good evening.

With that, I am...
Peter

Ryan Abernathy

Peter the SBC used the term southern to associate themselves with southern states and slave holders. It may not have been regional in scope but it was regional in location as you well know. Dave has a valid point whether you agree with it or not. Further, outside the SBC structure the name is not associated with many thoughts reflective of our Savior. That is a good enough reason to change the name IMHO

peter

Ryan,

Please. No slavery comments here. Nothing about that is germane.

And, I'm afraid you're going to have to explain exactly the distinction you're making between "regional in scope" and "regional in location" and what difference your distinction makes. I, for one, do not understand it.

And, unless you can prove your assertion that "outside the SBC structure the name is not associated with many thoughts reflective of our Savior" I see no reason to embrace it.

With that, I am...
Peter

Ryan Abernathy

By regional in scope I mean that the focus of the founders of the SBC was on international missions, partially, should slave holders be allowed to be ordained as missionaries. By regional in location, I mean that the founders of the SBC were largely a part of the Southern side of the Civil War. The name Southern Baptist Convention distinguished them from their Northern, abolitionist counterparts.

There is a lot that is germane about the slavery connection to the name Peter, and your desire to dismiss it is part of the problem. There is a great deal of racism that has permeated the SBC until very recently. Check out the online version of the Baptist Messenger for a great article on the subject.

You keep asking Dave and now myself for proof that the name Southern Baptist Convention is not viewed negatively by outsiders. I would invite you to come and visit me in OKC and spend some time with people who have been burned, castigated, and shunned by SBC churches, members, and pastors. The real onus in my opinion is for YOU to prove that there is a favorable view of the SBC OUTSIDE of its own members. Good luck. That is the real issue here. Too many SBC are so involved in navel gazing and self congratulation that they fail to see the real reputation they have in the community outside their walls. Stop and think about how many SBC churches are being started by biblically sound, evangelical conservatives that do not have a denominational affiliation in their names. Do you really think that this is just a fad or a rush of youthful rebellion? There is a reason and the reason is the reputation of the SBC outside the SBC tent.

selahV

Ryan, "naval gazing"??

peter

Ryan,

First, I asked you not to inject slavery into this conversation. Why you insist upon it is thoroughly annoying. You write, "There is a lot that is germane about the slavery connection to the name Peter, and your desire to dismiss it is part of the problem."

To the contrary, my friend, we are definitively not speaking about why Baptists of the south broke away from other Baptists. Rather anything I've written on these blogs about our history & Dave's point with which I have contended concerns whether Baptists of the south possessed a vision beyond themselves when they broke away. There is a clear distinction in the two. And for you to inject a needless side-bar issue--an issue mind you that could be productive another time, another place--and insist that it is germane and that my problem is I dismiss it remains fantastic.

Here's the deal, Ryan: If you can't discuss a focused point, without lobbing an easy, universal catch-all--Baptists split over slavery, Baptists owned slaves, that's the issue!--I have no interest in exchanging with you.

With that, I am...
Peter

volfan007

I'm looking for us to rename the SBC "Jesus Follower Dudes."

David
A member of the JFD

kim

Thanks for the informative post, Peter. I was aware of much of the name change history, but not the role Georgia would play if we did this now. That is a serious problem that those in favor of name change should not dismiss lightly.

I went to the link you had where some of this conversation was going on, and I also read the comments here. A common pattern that is not new, but one that I'm increasingly weary of, is the charge of being afraid of change. It can't be because we've done our homework, researched the legal and other ramifications of this decision. We're just old fogeys and stuck in the old days.

Kind of sounds similar to the charges being hurled at many Americans today who disagree with changes and policies being pushed. It can't be because they have a legitimate argument. Their just afraid to change. I expected more understanding from fellow Christians, when those in the SBC, myself included, have serious concerns, with facts to back it up.

When you start using charges against those in the SBC, based on motives attributed to them without proof, the debate really is over. As Peter has shown, discussing using facts and research will help to inform and make decisions. Having to always defend against being stuck in the past as the only reason folks won't agree with you, is a waste of time.

peter

Kim,

You're very welcome. And you are correct: we have far too many "weighing in" on an issue before they've done jack squat's worth of homework. Why we think that just because we can express an opinion--even if it's a dumb opinion--that it follows we must express an opinion sails right by my head.

Grace, Kim. May both of us commit to being as informed as we can be about the issues we speak for God's glory.

With that, I am...
Peter

James

Peter,
Will you please post links for all this legal jargon within Georgia. I want to read up on the charter and other information you have proposed here.

Mainly because this is the first time I have heard any of this and I like to do my research with my own eyes not from the words of a fellow blogger. No offense to you, but a great professor once told me not to take the words of a preacher/speaker as absolute truth without reading the scriptures/documents from which his words are based. Thank you.

James

peter

James,

There is a link at the post's end, footnote #2, that says, "the name of the SBC." If you'll click on that, it takes you to "Baptist2Baptist". Look then in the right hand column and scroll down to "SBC Name Change" Click there and read away!

Thanks for stopping by.

With that, I am...
Peter

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