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Bart Barber

Very sound history, Peter.



Thanks, my brother. I trust you well. Our Lord bless you & your family this Christmas.

With that, I am...


Good points. John Gill had a similar point as Howell, but the historians tend to exclude Gill and emphasize Howell...although everybody read Gill's Body in late 18th, early 19th cent England and America.
I think this exaggeration of Mrs. Marshall is due to some embellishment traceable to Robert Baker. He did a few pieces in the 1950s/60s in some SBC periodicals that jumped from Martha getting on to the jailer/judge (Abram Marshall wrote this in his 1803 sketch) to Martha being a preacher.
In Him,
GA Baptist

Big Daddy Weave

"Martha Marshall spoke both privately and publicly concerning the Christian faith, by no stretch may we read this practice as identical to a 21st century understanding of women in ministry."

I can agree with this. I doubt that Martha would have been in favor of women's ordination, etc. I would argue that Martha - as a woman who preached - was progressive for her day and thus makes a good historical example to recall.

And maybe Martha is not the best example in light of the comment by GA Baptist. I won't claim to be an expert in this area of Baptist history. There are, however, other examples of women who were indeed progressive for their day. David Stricklin devotes at least a chapter or two to such examples in his fascinating read, A Genealogy of Dissent.

And yes, moderate Baptist churches who affirm women as pastors have collectively done a lousy job of offering opportunities to women called to such positions. BWIM is trying to change that now and has for the first time in the organization's history, I believe, a full-time Executive-Director.

Also to Allen's defense, it's incredibly challenging to provide detailed arguments on a complex subject in a 600-word article.


Thanks GA Baptist. Do you happen to known which periodicals in which Baker contributed articles on women in Baptist history?

With that, I am...


Thanks, BDW. I'll take peek at Stricklin's examples.

Also, I fully concede your point about Allen's piece not lending itself to more sophisticated argument. In fact, I grant the piece wasn't at all an attempt to defend egalitarianism so much as a piece assuming egalitarianism.

As for BWiM and CBF, evidently from your comment, leaders are well aware of the paradox. One still wonders, after a decade and a half--and that's just since the CBF evolved, leaving out the strategic focus on WiM in the 'old' SBC prior to the CR--coupling our decided American cultural shift toward egalitarianism with a church fellowship possessing stated "built-in" principles for gender-neutral success, precisely why such dismal progress has been made.

With that, I am...

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