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2009.10.17

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Bob Cleveland

I believe that anyone involved with the Task Force should be extremely cautious about making any claims at all, as to what they're not doing. If, when the reports comes forth next year (assuming it does), any "rumor" that was shot down could hardly come true in the report. If it did, anyone previously denying it, would have serious credibility problems forevermore.

That's the thing that surprised me. That this stuff was addressed at all. THAT fact, itself, makes me wonder.

Woody B

Peter,

I'm not going to bother going through the last 5 years of blog posts to pull out any quotes to prove what I'm going to say. It wouldn't really matter if I did, anyway, because you would just say black is white and vice versa. Plus, like a busy seminary president I just don't have the time. Instead I'm just going to call it like I see it. I know you won't care, and it will just justify in your own mind one of your snarky replies, but it will help me a lot as I won't have to keep thinking that some day I actually need to reply to one of your posts...

I quit reading Wade's blog a long time ago, as he obviously went off the deep end somewhere along the way. Now you have ended up in the same water as he. And amazingly, even after all of the disagreements you two had, you're both swimming in the same pool, with the same enemies. His view of the SBC didn't win out. And gladly neither has yours. The BI folk drastically overestimated their influence on the convention and now you have to make due with taking pot shots at those that have risen to the forefront. You really need to call Wade and commiserate together. Maybe you have more in common than you thought!

You state: "Southern Baptists are experiencing a present void--we have no statesmen, statesmen who stand above the crowd, above all voices both pro and con, statesmen who speak and all people listen, statesmen whose gifts primarily diffuse crises not create friction. Unfortunately, no one who presently has the microphone fills this void for Southern Baptists."

This is absolutely not true. There are now 2 excellent statesmen that almost everyone is listening to. This was evident at the convention and is evident still today. Their names are Mohler and Akin. The problem is that you just don't care for what they are saying. Their vision is not the same as yours. But their vision is one that a great majority of SBs have in common.

Now that you guys seem to be on the outside looking in, with your heroes on the sideline instead of calling the plays, perhaps you understand how many of us felt for the past 10 years or so. Perhaps you understand how people that were effected by the decisions of authoritarian trustee boards felt when their lives were turned upside down because of the agenda of a few.

It is utterly amazing how quickly things change from a "go team" cheerleading spirit when the BI vision was controlling everything in the convention, to a sniping and critical attitude when their influence has diminished. I'm pretty sure I was told quite a few times to shush and not question my elders back then. Sure hope that doesn't happen to you guys for the next decade or two. It gets old pretty quick.

Calvinator

Part of what Woody is saying is valid. It is evident that we have leaders of quality. My only issue with Woody is that he sounds like he was against the Conservative Resurgence, which would mean he might need to stay on the sidelines. We aren't going back to pre-CR unfaithfulness, Lord willing.

Peter, your vigilence is apprecated on some issues (like the alcohol deabate), but it would not be wise to shoot all your jack while developments are yet to be determined.

Luke Tolbert

Peter,

By the "missions sending model" are you referring to the 2+2 program that has been in place and sending students to the international field for years? I am not sure when the program started, but I believe it was even prior to Dr. Akin's move to SEBTS. The students are still considered students at SEBTS but are also employees and missionaries with the IMB. If you have questions about the program, you can find your answers on the FAQ page of SEBTS's Center for Great Commission Studies here - http://www.sebts.edu/college/cgcs/FAQs/default.aspx

Woody B

For the record... I'm pro CR. How could I not be? We would not be in the place that we are today - with leaders like we have today if it had not taken place. I'm even pro PP, although all of those mounted animal heads gave me the creeps. BUT since we all slip every now and then, and since this blog loves the hypocrisy charge, it seems very applicable here.

Several years ago there was very heavy-handed, behind the scenes stuff going on with the IMB trustee board and others. At that time the BI crowd was writing long essays on honoring our leaders, honoring the process, the sanctity of the trustee system, etc. My only point is that the tune changes quickly when your own people aren't running the show.

Debbie Kaufman

Peter: You say you received your information from a seminary employee. Which seminary?

peter lumpkins

All,
Sorry I have not been available to exchange. I arrived home only a little while ago after traveling all day.
With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Bob,

Thanks for your input. And I believe you are correct concerning your caution about claims being made about position much too early. Embarrassing backpeddling very well could result by next June.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Woody,

Here's the deal. I took pains to engage the issues and the issues alone in these logs. I will allow your emotive display to stand. Do it again and it won't.

Now, to address a few things quickly.

A) if you did go back five years attempting to find quotes from me, you'd waste lots of time. Hadn't been blogging even close to five years.

B) if you think it's going to be that simple concerning your accusation of my "hypocrisy" by uttering the magic words, "I just don't have the time" to show it but I'm going to accuse your anyway, please do not log on again with that complaint unless you're willing to be specific. As the old cliche goes, if I may be candid, "either put up or shut up"

C) I was patiently awaiting who'd be the first to charge me with inconsistency because of my relentless defense of SBC leaders and denominational servants against others' criticisms, including the criticisms Wade Burleson made. Congratulations!

And, know I am really struggling deeply concerning these posts. For me, I take absolutely no pleasure whatsoever in writing them.

Know also, however, my thrill-less penning of these posts lies not in the fact that I am being hypocritical in penning them.

To the contrary, I am being as consistent with my principles as I know how to be. I am defending our denomination, our structures, our polity, our employees from what I believe to be overly-zealous critics, tearing down, in my view, with no real or substantial proof for doing so. In fact, the very same criteria I used in defending Paige Patterson, professors at SWBTS, our trustees, and even professors from Louisville is the very same criteria I'm using in this round.

Instead, my grief in writing these posts exists because of the ones who are doing the tearing down--it's denominational servant tearing down other denominational servants.

Now, you, Woody, would have me close my eyes to what I perceive to be injustice because the ones who are--in my perspective--tearing down others are themselves denominational servants, those concerning whom I've heretofore strongly stood in defense. Indeed, in your eyes, I'm hypocritical because I now have become the denominational critic.

From my perspective, Woody, you've surely got a curious way of viewing hypocrisy, for in my view, I'd be a hypocrite if I DID NOT speak up. What makes it right to give a free pass to a person who--at least in my estimation--is unjustly tearing down the ministry of another just because he or she happens to be a denominational servant who's doing the tearing down? I think you really need to think through that again, Woody.

Now there are other things I could address in your comments, but I'm done.

If you want to engage the issue here, I'd be delighted to accommodate. But remember: please do not log back on with another round just to get something off your chest. My blog is not an emotional dumping ground.

I trust your evening well.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

All,

I'm tired. Long trip. I'll get around to the others' questions tomorrow.

Good night.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Calvinator

Thanks for logging on. If I implied in the words pertaining to a void in SBC life a lack of leadership, it purely was unintended. As both you and Woody right point out, we've many great leaders in the SBC. Indeed Akin and Mohler fit the mold precisely no one would deny.

My little paragraph intended to convey not an absence of leaders but an absence of public statesmen. In my mind, while the two perhaps should not be separated, the two must be distinguished.

I'd say it another way like this: all statesmen are leaders but not all leaders are statesmen. If we could take the spark plug, Mark Driscoll, it's relatively easy to see the distinction. To deny Driscoll qualities of a great leader is to check into the nut house. He is. And, his following demonstrates nicely the point. On the other hand, to suggest Driscoll's gifts fit the role of a statesman is quite indicative of a fatal dose of West Georgia dumb.

Thanks for your encouragement (alcohol debate) and caution (shooting out). I really do appreciate it. And, I'd never be caught dead doing this were Dr. Akin not so zealous about squashing "myths" at Between the Times.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Luke,

Though I am aware of the program you mention, I'm not sure the two are the same. It could be a revisioneering of the program. All I know is the sketchy info given to me by an employee. And, I was told the program was financially busted. Thanks!

Debbie,

The seminary was Southeastern.

Grace.

With that, I am...
Peter

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