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2009.06.09

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selahV

Peter, just this a.m., I was watching Fox News and having my morning java with my main man. We watched with no surprise as the reporters showed a report on a highschool graduation party in which booze would be allowed to underage students. This party was being thrown by a set of parents who wanted other parents to sign a permission form releasing them from all legal ramifications should their child attend and something bad happen to them. Does this not shout ABSTINENCE!? what are these people thinking!!! selahV

David R. Brumbelow

Peter,
Great point, and great information. Promoting abstinence from beverage alcohol in the SBC is not "narrowing the perimeters;” it is keeping us from "loosening the perimeters.”
David R. Brumbelow

Jeff

Peter, You find one book that is almost OP, and you decide that there never has been any dissent---this is wrong. I have no problem with saying that to refrain from drinking is the majority view but to say what you said is wrong.

This is like saying that no Southern Baptist oppose slavery in an era when many Southern Baptists owned slaves.

peter

SelahV

Your feelings capture my own heart.

David,

I could not agree more. Today's atmosphere sometimes suggests any disciplined living reduces to a threat to Christian liberty.

Grace to you both. With that, I am...

Peter

Byroniac

Jeff,

Peter qualified the word dissent with "major" so he is not denying historical dissent in entirety. I have no idea what the history of dissent has been on this issue in the SBC, myself, though. I do believe this is a major issue for the SBC, and probably one which will determine fellowship in many cases. My own view is that personal abstinence is fine, but insisting on universal abstinence is transgressing beyond any ability of mine to agree. I intend to skim Peter's new book at Lifeway, but I'm sure when it comes to abstinence, I'll remain an unconvinced skeptic. ;)

Jeff

It shouldn't determine fellowship but________. Fill in the blank with your local BI guy and it will determine fellowship.

My argument still stands.

peter

Jeff,

Let me be gut level honest: after the last comment exchange you posted on an earlier thread, with the subsequent unhealthy email exchange, I'd be dishonest if I didn't reveal my personal caution in entering yet another "dialog" with you.

With that reservation recorded, Jeff, your characterization of my "finding" but "one book" on abstinence among Southern Baptists, and such discovery standing as the basis of my alleged "decision" that "there never has been any dissent" concerning abstinence is not at all justified by my words. But if you think that's what I wrote, be my guest.

Also, if you do not connect the dots on the role of Convention Press in the mid-20th century, I cannot assist you.

Nor am I limited in my single "find" for the conclusions drawn, I assure.

With that, I am...
Peter

selahV

Byron, skim? I have just spent all evening last night and all day today reading and re-reading this book. I'm not saying a person who has far more intelligence than I could not skim this book and possibly decide they wouldn't want to purchase it. But, it is certain that if you skim it, it will do you no good to bother wasting the gas to go to the bookstore or the effort to pick it up. It's far more weighty than it appears. Just thought I'd give you my 2-cents worth. :) selahV

Byroniac

SelahV, I figure I have seen most of the arguments here online already, at least in embryonic form, and I doubt there is any new material which would prove convincing to me. I could be mistaken, however. And as I am currently not willing to buy the book for myself and find out, I doubt seriously I will read it unless someone buys and sends me a copy, no strings attached. So, if I happen to be in the bookstore and decide to skim it, I should be able to get a rough idea if I actually want to change my mind and buy the book or not, or if I find any of it interesting (actually, it would be interesting as reference material for a view opposing my own).

peter

Byron,

I appreciate your close reading of the words I wrote. Thank you.

Also, I'm glad you'll scan my book. I wrote to convince but with the clear understanding that universal persuasion is a utopian illusion.

With that, I am...
Peter

Jeff

Peter, I do not need your help---I have a far greater understanding of CP than you know. You are arguing into the air--I have never claim that the drinking was a majority view. And so what if it wasn't? SBC had many slave owners does that make it right. X

Jeff

About that email exchange--when are you going to post the entire email exchange. It was sorta funny that you wouldn't let me post for while but continue to post summaries of the email.

Byroniac

Peter,

I am not sure whether I will purchase the book or not (because I am actually sort of interested in reading an opposing view, but so far that interest has not crossed the threshold into actual activity). Looks like I will have to make a purchase online if I ever decide to acquire this book. Neither the local LifeWay store nor Barnes & Noble had it: LifeWay told me it could be ordered and Barnes & Noble added that it would be pre-paid only. I suppose this book will not be generally available in my area, at least for now.

peter

Jeff,

Like I said, I posted my personal caution in entering yet another "dialog" with you, and my caution has been shown to be valid.

My suggestion to you is, get your own blog and just publish away, Jeff. I am uninterested in the threads here being clogged with not only pointless, non-substantive, one-line comebacks, but also bearing an unhealthy level of obnoxious disdain.

With that, I am...
Peter

cb scott

Byron,

I think you might be mistaken to say you "have seen most of the arguments here online already, at least in embryonic form, and I doubt there is any new material which would prove convincing to me."

You seem like a rather astute fellow. I think the book would be worthy of your time. Even if you make no change in your position, you will have a much better understanding of the position many of us hold relating to the use of alcohol as a beverage.

You will not see any pictures of dead bodies spread all over the highway in graphic color. There is no grandstanding or personal pity parties saturating the pages of Peter's work. It is well done and presented in a scholarly fashion.

It will be worth your time and I hope you reconsider.

cb

Robert

Based on previous post I have read by you Peter, I am sure that your book is riveting and well written. However, I will continue to use the Bible to form my beliefs.

Byroniac

CB Scott,

Thank you for your very gracious reply to me (I don't deserve it!). If it helps, I used to believe, perhaps as strongly as you do, in the abstinence position and reading the Scriptures for myself changed my view. However, abstinence is always the safer position, and I am forced to admit for some situations it is the wisest. God bless!

Byroniac

CB Scott, let me add that in all my family and friends I was the lone abstentionist (that I know of), and now that I am no longer Baptist I really have no one to talk to about this issue anyways. I believe I should buy Peter Lumpkin's book if I ever need a good reference for this issue, but I know no one personally that I would be comfortable enough with to talk about this issue.

I have been visiting a local Baptist church and the pastor naturally believes in church membership and wants me to join (out of principle, as he obviously does not know me well). Out of respect for him and because I am not a troublemaker, I will probably not join. I have no plans to ever join a church again, as I have lost belief in all denominations. If I feel like attending I will "join" the church for that service and "leave" it when the service is over (or before, if I want to leave early for some reason).

But concerning the alcohol abstinence position, I have learned a lot from Peter's post on the subject which are very well-written and clearly expressed. But I have little real desire to learn anything more in this subject when I know no use in my personal life for the knowledge I could gain, or people that I would care to interact with on this issue. Perhaps that is shortsighted, but that is the way it is for now.

Timotheos

Byron,

Not to take this thread in an unintended direction, I am grieved by the second paragraph in your last post - not for myself, but for you. May I suggest a book that has been both an encouragement and an affront to my own pride and dashed expectations as I have wrestled with similar issues as you express.

The book is "Life Together" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. If you have not read it, please for your sake, the sake of God's kingdom and your place in it, read and ponder, especially chapter 1.

Grace and peace,

Timotheos

Byroniac

Timotheos,

Thank you so much for your reply. I am not planning to forsake the assembling together of Christians. I wanted to email you personally to keep my off-topic comments off this blog out of respect for Peter, but I have no idea what your email address is, so please email me at byroniac@gmail.com if you want. For the short term, I am not really planning on joining or becoming a part of this local Baptist church (I don't think I would fit in well now that I have visited several times), but will probably visit a Reformed Presbyterian (PCA I think) church, and alternate between that and my home Calvinist Baptist church. I'd say more, but not publicly, but I'll leave it at this: I've been in a two to three year severe spiritual pit.

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