A Post-Christian World? How Delightfully Trite by Peter Lumpkins

I am glad for the fire I see in many young Christians today.  My son-in-law is student pastor at a mega-church-mini-city in north metropolitan Atlanta.  It’s amazing to be around the student center and observe as hundreds of fresh, young fireballs for Christ burn brightly as they not only fellowship, but also worship our Lord in ways that, shall we say, makes me tired just looking at them.

As a maturing Southern Baptist (i.e. becoming old), I haven’t the least fret over the long haul that God’s providential care will fail to raise up the necessary prophets to lead His church.  It is not because I’m so confident in the church.  After all, the church proper has experienced, as has every single member who make up her ranks, a duplicitous past. That is, the church had to rediscover herself, find herself, expunge herself, reform herself, revive herself, limit herself, discipline herself, and, in a healthy, biblical, non-narcissistic way, love herself.**  Rather it is because I’m so confident in our Lord, the Lord of the Church, the Gatekeeper of God’s Community of Faith.

Not to say there are no moments when I pause and scratch my scalp in utter amazement at some of the fumbling moments of our faith family.  Two quick illustrations of our spiritual butterfingers.

I recently kept an eye on a blog-thread of exchanges the subject of which switched somewhat (no surprise!) to some generational differences.  One young Baptist made this comment:  “In reality I see this debate as just being an excuse from the older generation as to why they can’t pass off the torch to the younger generation and go quietly into the night.” 

Now the content of the debate about which this young, Baptist buck referenced is irrelevant to my point.  Note the phrase “…why [the older generation] can’t pass off the torch to the younger generation and go quietly into the night.”

Even after three plus years of blogging, I remain hopeful I will always possess—if I continue in the future—potential to get the you-knows knocked out of me. Under God, surely, surely this mindless, heartless, twisted evaluation toward our aging leaders cannot be the prevailing one from young Southern Baptist sub-culture.  If it is, I’m of a mind to take back what I said above. We have no future SBC because their is no future Christianity. 

For me, to speak of our wise, mature and godly leadership as worthless to Kingdom work, contentless in prophetic guidance, bankrupt to mentorship, or irrelevant to global evangelism is so far removed from a biblical worldview that one’s breath is near taken away. My inward man gags, and then moans,  in language only the Spirit gives, the powerful Pauline Maranatha.

Not even close to the obnoxious utterance above but nevertheless as potent to solicit one’s pause is a statement I read from a young pastor in an infomercially-driven article pertaining to a soon-to-be conference.  Quoting the News & Observer:

"We're seeing a massive decline in the church-going public," said Tyler Jones, pastor of Vintage21 in downtown Raleigh and chief organizer [of Advance: Resurgence of the Local Church]. "The U.S. is quickly becoming a post-Christian nation." (//link).

The strategists for this conference are not new to this type of venue.  Indeed the conference is near-sold out according to the report, and sold out @ $125 a pop.  Nor are the “celebrity” speakers.  Laying aside my personal reservations for Southern Baptists about becoming too cozy with men who do ministry like Mark Driscoll—reservations about which I’ve been completely public (//links)—I’m particularly charmed by the premise Jones offers above as partial rationale for hosting the Advance conference:  “The U.S. is quickly becoming a post-Christian nation."

As I read this, I’m struck by the paradoxical lightning bolt.  On the one hand, I applaud young Baptist men like Jones who are finally getting it that we ain’t in Kansas anymore.  But on the other hand I’m grieved that young Baptist men like Jones apparently think that the older generation of Southern Baptists, for some reason or other, are convinced we are.

Additionally, the premise is often times used as a jack-hammer to pound into shame more traditionally-oriented Southern Baptists because they are using 1950s methods in a 21C world.  Or, in Tyler’s terms, a “post-Christian nation.”  Enter our pollster prophets who use their statistical charts to show Southern Baptists are behind times and frankly, that the “post-Christian” world no longer views us positively but negatively.

My pause about this term “post-Christian nation” has nothing to do with whether or not such a phrase corresponds to a reality which exists.  I happen to believe as strongly as any twenty-thirty-something our culture is “post-Christian,” and we are, in the words of Francis Schaeffer, who, three-quarters of a generation ago, noted our living perfectly content on memories of a Christian past:

“This present generation has been raised by the first full post-Christian generation, and thus the memory is all but gone. In government and in morals, the base is gone and the hedonistic, subjective whims of a 51 percent majority, or an elite, are all that is left. Only sociological averages and arbitrary judgments remain.”

Indeed “post-Christian” could very well be suggested as the center of Schaeffer’s prophetic lament during the last quarter of the 20th century.  In dozens of contexts, Schaeffer spoke of post-Christian culture and predicted the very cultural landscape onto which we find ourselves building our biblical barns and growing our gospel corn.  My point is, where do young Baptists get the idea that the older generation is crassly uninformed concerning our “post-Christian” culture?  Is it books?  Professors?  Conferences?  Clubs?  Where?

Again, this presumptuous aura which hazily but actually exists and inevitably descends upon the attempted cross-generational dialogs taking place today is, for my money, a dinner I can do without. 

In the end, I think there may exist deeper divides than we can see from the surface.  We must, if you will, climb the tower and view from higher range.  I may be wrong.  I could very well be incorrect.  I am willing to stand down.  Nonetheless, I think an acknowledgment of and appropriate response to our '”post-Christian” culture is not at all the center of our church-crisis in the 21C. Instead, I think our crisis centers down on the observable effect the “post-Christian” culture has decidedly imposed upon the pre-post-Christian church.

If I am correct, what Southern Baptists see birthing before their eyes may be a cross-genetic phenomenon, the church artificially inseminated with “post-Christian” seeds.  Once this genetic strain is started there will be no turning back. “Post-Christian” culture spliced to “Post-denominational” church spliced to “Post-Baptist” church spliced to “Post-Christian” church.  Is it possible we're feeling the birth-pangs of a deviant version of Medieval Christianity?

With that, I am…

Peter

  

**Note to my Reformed-sensitive readers:  None of the action verbs imply the action is decidedly human action part from God’s sovereign sustenance through Word & Spirit

Comments

[Bob Cleveland]

"...go quietly into the night..."?

WHAT?

I hardly see that being the case, under any circumstances, unless someone was sitting quietly in the daylight.

[selahV]

Peter, you "just can't get no respect", can ya? :)

[Timotheos]

Good Morning Peter,

Good, thought-provoking post. Maybe it would be premature to dismiss yourself from the "dinner" you feel you can do without. Though the "young buck" you quote has expressed himself in vastly ignorant (and maybe even arrogant) terms, I think he may be providing a bit of inadvertent, but nonetheless truthful, commentary on "our generation" (I was born in 1955).

Likewise, the deduction which you draw, and from which you demur, concerning the "Jones" quote "that the older generation of Southern Baptists, for some reason or other, are convinced we are [still in Kansas]." may be more accurately on point than we might like to admit.

Both the salutary AND deceptive potential of such assertions made by one generation over against another lies precisely in the inability (or worse, unwillingness) of a "generation" to perceive the reality that the Kingdom of heaven, and the time-and-space-bound church within that Kingdom, are not necessarily the "Kansas" to which they have, in their own day, grown complacently (if not mindlessly) comfortable.

Let me give a brief illustration by way of anecdote. I lead a fellowship that is now 8 years old which began with about 20 families and assorted singles, roughly 80-90 people. Of the original 20 families, only 8 remain. An essentially "new" congregation has replaced the original one, and the demographics of the new is noticeably younger than the original. Here are the reasons most of the original group moved on: dislike of the preaching style/content (not practical, too academic, etc.); non-programmatic approach to such things as childrens ministry, youth, etc.; lack of a building (we intentionally rent space and do not plan to build our "own" place); not enough "activities."

I'm not judging these reasons here as right or wrong, but the point, I think, is fairly clear - the majority of people who left, left to go back to "Kansas" (activities, programs, buildings and pulpit style). Many of these people, incidentally, are of Baptist/SBC traditional extraction. None of them are what we would call "young." They conceive of church in very specific, generational, often provincial terms and expressions.

Having come from such a background myself, and recognizing more and more the ill-effects of mistaking this portrait of "Kansas" for God's kingdom, or of allowing this generational understanding and expression of "church" to calcify, it is less of a surprise to me now that the young bucks are uninterested in either fighting for, or investing in, "Kansas" as we have imagined it.

It has been surprising and disconcerting to me to discover how prejudiced Christians can be towards not merely other "races," but towards anything and anyone not of the same homogeneous milieu as them. Though I would not blame these ill-effects entirely on one's idea of what "Kansas" should be, there's more blame there than meets the eye.

Anyway, thanks for the cognitive stimulation. Peace,

Timotheos

[Timotheos]

~blush~ guess that should be "Good Afternoon..."

[Todd Burus]

Peter,
Nice hack job at quoting what was actually said. Maybe you could try the whole quote:

"In reality I see this debate as just being an excuse from the older generation as to why they can’t pass off the torch to the younger generation and go quietly into the night. Obviously that is an overgeneralization and there are some sins and excesses that need to be addressed, but honestly there does seem to more of a dire warning characteristic to the criticisms than there is a Godly discipling tone."

[peter]

SelahV,

You are probably correct, I'm sad to inform.

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter]

Timotheos,

Always, my brother, you stimulate my thinking from much too deep slumbers. Thank you...

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter]

Todd,

Thanks for the compliment. May I add, if you don't mind, the words on the backside of the image I chose to quote are no more helpful to the point I was making than the words on the frontside, which is why, you'll notice, I carefully trimmed them away. I was after the miserable image in between.

In addition, on neither end of the image is there the slightest contextual negation--including but not limited to "overgeneralization"--which bled out the rich but rotten picture of older leaders passing into oblivion.

I'm reminded of the then governor of Colorado's words spoken during the height of Jack Kevorkian--"Dr. Death"--fame. In defending the rising euthanasia movement, he said, "Old people have a duty to die."

The unfortunate image quoted in my OP cannot be said to miss by far the now very aged govenor's words years ago. Some images bear no hope for redemption, Todd.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Byroniac]

Timotheos, may your tribe increase. Though I think I understand where Peter is coming from, maybe, I think that the problem we have in the SBC (well, I say, "we") cannot and will not be fixed by "traditional" church. My problem is, it's too easy for me to slide into pragmatism because I have a very practical mindset when it comes to theology. But I have discovered that I am more traditional in my thinking about church than I realized: I happen to prefer buildings to meet in, especially in the summer months here in Texas, because I would like to add A/C as an additional church ordinance. ;)

[Todd Burus]

Peter,
I think I would disagree on your assessment. I feel it is wrong to paint the level of arrogance you did (or allowed) into that quote when I in writing it acknowledged that it was hyperbole being used to make a point, that being that the pastors should be more interested in discipling these younger men instead of trying to disqualify them from afar. I also was making the point that the same guys who condemn this language in orthodox preachers seem to have no trouble supporting other young leaders who barely qualify as Christian teachers, if at all. All of that was lost because you singled out a comment from context both in its paragraph and the overall discussion. That is good for making a point, but bad hermeneutics and even poorer charity.

Nevertheless, I think that you raise an interesting question about post-Christianity that longs for clarification along the lines of what Timotheos began above.

[peter]

Todd,

Like I said earlier, some images bear no hope for redemption. And, if you think otherwise or that use of the humiliating, disrespectful image toward mature brothers and proven leaders, solicits no pause to reflect differently, be my guest.

Have a great evening.

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter]

Todd,

Sorry. I meant to mention the latter part of your comment. Springing from Timotheos' contribution above, I agree with you concerning clarification today's church must pursue. I'm thinking that while it may be painful for the church--particularly Southern Baptists--we all will be better for it.

Grace. With that, I am...
Peter

[Chris Gilliam]

Peter and Timotheos.

I applaud your clarity on this issue. I encourage you to work on putting together a longer essay for a journal. This has not been discussed enough on what the actual fruit is going to become (old/ new/ emerging...) I have been thrilled to learn today. You both spoke waht my heart was thinking
Chris

[Todd Burus]

Peter,
These are your words:
"For me, to speak of our wise, mature and godly leadership as worthless to Kingdom work, contentless in prophetic guidance, bankrupt to mentorship, or irrelevant to global evangelism is so far removed from a biblical worldview that one’s breath is near taken away."

These are my words:
"In reality I see this debate as just being an excuse from the older generation as to why they can’t pass off the torch to the younger generation and go quietly into the night. Obviously that is an overgeneralization and there are some sins and excesses that need to be addressed, but honestly there does seem to more of a dire warning characteristic to the criticisms than there is a Godly discipling tone. Let’s not forget, for all intents and purposes the people whose language we’re attacking are us, not them, and there is a large difference between solid people using questionable language (i.e. Mark Driscoll) and blatant heretics that we don’t even call out. Just wondering, how many of these pastors criticizing bad language are allowing their Sunday School teachers to show Nooma videos or do “The Shack” and “Velvet Elvis” reading groups? Isn’t that a bigger problem than someone using scatological words?"

Clearly I disagree with you on the mentoring and guidance issue. The problem of older generations (or thinkers, since this does transcend age as I noted further in the discussion cited) not respecting younger generations is as far-back of a problem as the opposite, that's why 1 Timothy 4.12 is in the Bible. There is no reason for younger men to disavow or disrespect older men, as that too is clearly taught in the same passage (1 Timothy 5.1), but this is not a one-way street and younger men can't just be shouted down as brash young "bucks".

And clearly there is precedent for being wary of the knowledge that older men have of their capacity. W.A. Criswell ran off at least two young ministers in his refusal to relinquish his pulpit. Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell made several embarrassing (and biblically questionable) statements in their older age. There is something to be said about pride creeping up in old age, maybe you disagree with the imagery, but will you deny the point?

[Les Puryear]

Peter,

I spent all day today (June 5) at the Advance 09 conference. The one thing that struck me more than anything else was the number of young men there. I probably need to define "young" since I'm pretty old relatively speaking. I would guess the age range for the majority of the crowd (2800+) to be between 25 and 35 years old. There were some old coots like me there as well but this conference was overwhelmingly attended by young men.

Whether you or I like it or not, the evidence I've seen is that the younger generation is listening with almost worshipful intensity to Stetzer, Piper, and Driscoll. I will also add that Stetzer, Piper, and Driscoll all said not to worship them; worship Jesus.

Perhaps imy surprise at the young men at this conference is because I've never been to SBC conferences where younger men have been the majority attendees. Most SBC conferences, seminars, or annual meetings (both state & national) I've attended are notable for the absence of young men in the 25 to 35 age range. Perhaps Dr. Hunt's "Timothy" conferences (I'm not sure of the name) might dispel the notion of young men not coming to SBC-oriented meetings. I don't know.

I think we (the SBC) needs to pay attention to what's happening with the younger men. I don't have any suggestions as to what we need to do, but I'm afraid if we don't do something, the median age of the SBC is going to ratchet up until we all die off.

Thanks for the space to air my views.

Les

[peter]

Todd,

Indeed your inspired imagery of old people passing the torch and fading "quietly into the night" wreaks with gut-busting irony of the grand, colossal shout-down.

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter]

Chris,

Thanks for the encouragement. I continue to reflect on our crisis and will consider posting some more.

I trust you are doing well. Coffee soon, I hope.

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter]

Les,

Thanks, brother, for your thoughts and expressing your first-hand observations of Advance. I possess no doubts the conference offered some positive assistance to pastors.

Nor could I disagree with you that younger SB are increasingly disinterested in SBC meetings, a phenomenon which must gain our careful attention. Sadly, I with you do not possess cure-all answers.

My inner struggle is, neither do I think the trio mentioned above emanates the cure-all answers. Know it is not that I embrace skepticism concerning answers. Rather, sometimes solving an identity-crisis travels the road of casting off who or what one is not before finalizing who or what one is.

Grace Les. With that, I am...
Peter

[Tim B]

Peter,

I like you am at a loss for answers. I know beaming Andy Stanly in as a surrogate preacher isn't the answer. Where is the man of God with a word from God for the people? I know cursing in the pulpit isn't the answer. I know hiring a rock band isn't the answer. At the same time, I look at Acts 2 and a few other passages where we see the activities of the God empowered church and I realize that most churches are so busy that they do not have time to devote themselves to prayer, fellowship, breaking bread and the ministry of the Word. The traditional churches aren't doing those things and we see the consequences. If the young guys aren't doing those things no matter how many they attract with their "new methods", if they will fail as well.

[selahV]

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. If He is lifted up, He will draw all men to Him. Sing to Jesus. Preach Jesus. Praise Jesus. Worship Jesus. Love Jesus and love others like Jesus loved them. And the churches won't have enough room for folks. More prayers of repentance at the altar (uh, oh, I said the "a" word) with genuine tears and earnest desire to have God pour out His Spirit upon His people would help a whole bunch, too. selahV

[Byroniac]

My personal belief is that God is completely in charge and that He is shrinking the visible church.

[Byroniac]

What I meant was, I believe the invisible church (the truly regenerate who are the unseen elect of God) is smaller than the visible church, and this might be one of those times in history that God is shrinking the visible church closer to what the invisible church actually is within her midst. God will accomplish His purposes, so perhaps we should concentrate more on purity than restoring dwindling numbers. Just my $0.02, for what's it's worth.

[Jeff]

I haven't heard anyone claim to have all the answers, why bring it up?

[Dr. James illingham]

Sir: Post or not, it is also true that the darkest hour is just before the dawn and that the future as dark as it might be is still as bright as the pomises of God to which Judson referred to in the darkest of hours of his mission in Burmah. The two great awakenings and Edwards' Humble Attempt with nearly 100 promises to be pleaded for such a visitation say the future could be a 1001 generations of every last soul on earth converted in each of those generations could be a distinct possibility. After all his wrk and the promises he rcorded were pladed in regard to the Second Great Awakening and in the origin of the Great Century of Missions.