« The Ultimate Muscle Machine: "The Goat" & Siblings Will Soon Be Gone | Main | Weekend Quotes: A Time to Consider »

2009.04.25

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

selahV

Peter, as far as I can tell, I may be gone before this complete takeover, given the fact that I am in my 60th year. However, it gives me chills to think what my Christian children and grandchildren and my two little great-grandsons may be facing soon. We may want to be welcoming our Mexican neighbors with open arms rather than limiting their entrance into our country. This video is quite sobering. Can we pray more? Can we share more? Or do we conform to the culture of tolerance? selahV

Trip Rodgers

Peter,
Islam is not the enemy.
"If Southern Baptists are to square off with Islamic totalitarianism, being nice, saying neutral things, asking forgivness, and sporting the latest fashions will count exactly zero toward engaging such a threat."
Godless statement, Peter. We have one enemy. We're called to be Navy Seals running rescue missions behind enemy lines, and you're going around shooting the hostages! Brilliant...

I think it's a wicked thing that many SB leaders are doing. Making an enemy of those Christ is calling us to share the gospel with. I think many Muslims are closer to the kingdom than the people going around building their kingdom scaring the sheep.

peter lumpkins

Trip,

Get a grip and actually read what I wrote would be the strategy: "Barring an intellectual renaissance of the mind (not excluding from the mind a decidedly theo-biblical focus), a life-or-death vow to Christ's Lordship, and an old-fashioned, white-hot, spiritual visitation from the Holy Ghost..." To overlook this and splatter me with suggesting we shoot hostages as a remedy is not only absurd but patently ignorant.

With that, I am...

Peter

selahV

Hello Trip, I'm unclear about why you are upset with this post. I found it a sobering reminder of how we need to share the gospel all the more. Maybe I read the post wrong; maybe I don't get the video, but I think it adds volume to the clarion call of the Great Commission Resurgence. Not hatred. selahV

Trip Rodgers

I re-read and listened to the video again. I still think it's fear-mongering while bashing the "missional" folks. By the way, I think the video is fear-mongering as well. Having the last 10 seconds of a 7 1/2 minute video say "this is a call to action" doesn't really change the focus of the video.
Looking at the history of the church, we'll see voluntary going of the church to peoples or God taking us to the people involuntarily OR bringing them to us involuntarily (on our part).
So is the theme of this post "Stop being missional" or "have more babies so the Muslims won't win?" :)
I'm tired. Good night.

peter lumpkins

Trip,

First, your initial comment had nothing to do with the video. Instead you fired off a reactionary "Godless statement Peter," when you obviously did not read what I wrote with care. Furthermore, your present comment suggesting this post's theme is "stop being missional" or "have more babies" is as absurd as the first comment. You've confused "squaring off" with ideas and worldviews--which I explicitly addressed in the post--with people (Muslims).

Second, you allegedly watched a 7+min video saying it's "fear-mongering" and "missional" bashing but offer not one shred of rebuttal to the video's content. Ignoring content while concluding "I still think" illustrates precisely the stubborn nonsense I mentioned in the first part of the post.

Third, Trip, my advice, for whatever it's worth, is for you next time to retire early if you're tired. Such will assist you from making ill-conceived, mindless critiques, which captures, in part, the very essence of my final point.

With that, I am...

Peter

From the Middle East

Brother Peter,

This following comment is on the video only:

Guess we better start sharing the Gospel more and having more babies. The motivation? Love, uh, uh, I mean fear of those Muslim people. Sorry, couldn't help it ;^)

Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East

volfan007

FMTE and Trip,

I, for one, would hate to live by Muslim law. I would especially hate to live under the Taliban rules and regulations. May the Lord keep this from ever happening to me, my children, and to whatever grandchildren I might have in the future.

Secondly, Muslims do not go to Heaven, unless they repent and put thier faith in Jesus for thier salvation. Thus, we need to win them to Christ.

David

peter lumpkins

FTME,

Always good to have you drop by. As for the "having more babies" part of the equation, I think both you and Trip missed the major thrust of the video's message. Indeed, if I recall correctly, the window for the 'birth-strategy' is decidedly closed for the West. And, since you are familiar with the situation first-hand, I'd be interested to know whether your own sources dispute the video's demographics and if so, how?

As for my own conclusion, it is not just "sharing the Gospel more." Rather, as I indicated in the short post, a solution would necessarily include an intellectual renaissance of the mind, a life-or-death vow to Christ's Lordship, and a white-hot, spiritual visitation from the Holy Spirit. Pragmatic concerns like becoming "hip" so as to be more tasty to culture's depraved palate count for nothing in the larger picture.

Trusting your Lord's Day has been well. With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

David,

I possess similar concerns. Hope your Lord's Day service pleased our Savior. With that, I am...
Peter

From the Middle East

Brother David (007),

Not sure why your comment #8 was directed at me. I agree with what you wrote. Though I would add that repentance and faith in Jesus is not just about "going to Heaven," but that horse has been beaten to death and I do not desire to derail Brother Peter's post with a discussion on Jesus as some kind of eternal fire insurance policy.

Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East

From the Middle East

Brother Peter,

First, a hearty AMEN!!!!! to your statement:

A solution would necessarily include an intellectual renaissance of the mind, a life-or-death vow to Christ's Lordship, and a white-hot, spiritual visitation from the Holy Spirit.

Second, I do not disagree with the demographics. My good friend Brother Abu Daoud has written about this topic more than once over at http://islamdom.blogspot.com/>his place. Apologies, but you'll have to check his archives. At any rate, I do not think it is disputable that Muslims have both great zeal for evangelism and excel at both immigration and procreation.

Rather, I would disagree with the video's message that we should evangelize because we are afraid of Muslims. We should proclaim Jesus to all because our minds have been renewed, we are submitted to Christ's lordship and the Holy Spirit has given us a white-hot passion for those who are dead in sin. On that I'm sure we agree!

Peace to you my brother,
From the Middle East

selahV

FTME, I like your contribution to this stream. And I agree that "we should proclaim Jesus to all because our minds have been renewed, we are submitted to Christ's lordship and the Holy Spirit has given us a white-hot passion for those who are dead in sin." But this video has a sobering effect in that it shows how much more we need to share the Gospel. We can get so lazy thinking the work we are doing is great and the prayers we are offering are enough, and the gifts we are giving is enough. But when (OR IF) our lifestyle and freedom may be challenged due to another ruling religion because of their numbers in a democracy, we have reason to be ready to live and die for our faith as so many are in many countries where religious liberty and freedom is not the norm. Don't you think? I see this as a call to deeper commitment to our Lord, to teaching our young people they have a Lord Who empowers them to stand strong in the midst of anything. No? selahV

Darby Livingston

"Rather, I would disagree with the video's message that we should evangelize because we are afraid of Muslims. We should proclaim Jesus to all because our minds have been renewed, we are submitted to Christ's lordship and the Holy Spirit has given us a white-hot passion for those who are dead in sin. On that I'm sure we agree!"

I don't think Peter is saying we should only evangelize out of fear - like: lock your doors, don't talk to strangers, evangelize the Muslims. But I do think less pleasant forms of idolatry than Disney and Wall Street serve as a wake-up call to what others around the world are dealing with on a daily basis. It seems to me the beauty of the gospel shines brighter in dimmer cultures.

From the Middle East

Sister SelahV,

I have no problem with a video showing accurate demographics. I also agree that we should evangelize and teach our children of the Lord as well. And agree that this video does have a sobering effect.

Let me try an illustration:

Evangelist One: "I implore you, because of my fear of you and your people, be reconciled to God."

Evangelist Two: "I implore you, because of my deep love for you and your people, be reconciled to God."

Again, I'm not saying the video is not sobering, but that it is not proper motivation for evangelism.

Peace to you my sister,
From the Middle East

From the Middle East

Brother Darby,

I agree, but would maintain that, while Peter was not advocating evangelism out of fear, the video certainly uses fear to motivate.

Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East

Debbie Kaufman

I agree with you FTME.

peter lumpkins

A quick point. Not all fear, of course, is illegitimate motivation. While I do not focus on fear as a primary strategy to evangelize or pastorally exhort and/or counsel, I'm completely comfortable arguing Scripture both acknowledges and employs fear at times in sparking one's relationship to God.

With that, I am...
Peter

selahV

Peter, just so I'm clear about "fear". I have no fear in me for myself. I am in Christ. Any qualms I have is for those who do not fully know the "rest" they have in their Savior and will meet with dire trials if we do not attend to teaching the full Gospel and the power over evil and how to stand in the face of persecution without trembling. We Christians have an awesome responsibility to bring up our children and grandchildren to know the Lord in His fullness and to know that they can trust Him in all circumstances. This we owe all new converts also. And I see this all the more important as we approach the days ahead. We cannot be mamby pamby about our faith. It behooves us all to disciple with these things in mind. We may not always have such a blessed liberty as we have now. We have so complacently accepted our freedoms without the least thought to them being tested that many Christians feel safe in the knowledge that they are saved and that is all they need in life.

There may come a time, and if these statistics are true, it is coming, when our faith is tested severely. In that time I pray we will have put forth every effort in equipping the saints as they stand firm for their Savior and Lord. That's all I'm saying in this. Evangelize and disciple. Now. With greater ugency than ever. If it is for naught and I have given my all, then better the world be for it--whether I'm prompted by warnings of videos or revelation of God. selahV

Grady Bauer

I do agree with you that the thought of a Muslim America is a scary thing but using is to attack the "missional" guys...come on.

Lifeway's newest research shows the SBC on the decline again...that darned Bin Laden, it's all his fault. :-)

I am one of the post-modern guys you so often rant against. I wear my shirt untucked, have spikey hair, attend a SBC church without the word SBC in it and guess what....I love Jesus and His church. I'm not trying to be cool or hip or anti-old school Baptist....I am who I am. I wish for once that the guys who so bravely led us into the CR would just for once be transparent and honest and admit that in all of their zeal for correct theology that they lost the passion for the lost. Because that's exactly what happened....we became more about conformity than ingenuity.

Jesus didn't have one style or approach to ministry but his message was always the same. I wish we could stop obsessing about our petty opinions on wearing jeans while preaching and hair styles and recognize that the enemy wants nothing more than to divide us over dumb things. I don't fault you for your ministry, dress or musical taste....it's you...own it. There are going to be people that you can minister to that I cannot...and vice versa. This is the beauty of the body of Christ. I wish we would stop wanting everyone to be right hands and allow for the diversity of the body.
Grady

Chris Gilliam

Perhaps I'm too courageous! I did NOT see the fear mongering this clips is reported to report. I also actively participate in the call to action.

David R. Brumbelow

Grady,
You referred to those in the Conservative Resurgence and said why don‘t they, “admit that in all of their zeal for correct theology that they lost the passion for the lost.”

I believe you are totally wrong on that. How can anyone seriously say that Adrian Rogers, Paige Patterson, Paul Pressler, Jerry Vines, Bobby Welch, Johnny Hunt, Jimmy Draper lost their passion for the lost. If you believe that, you just don’t know those men. You may do it differently, but they never lost their passion to tell people about Jesus.

I know guys who were “missional” years before anyone ever heard of that word.

I’m very conservative and traditional, and I had the opportunity to baptize two young adults yesterday. Both with multiple tattoos, one with both arms covered with tattoos. Wish I could say I did that every Sunday. The point is, some of your concerns may not be a big as you think they are.
David R. Brumbelow

Grady Bauer

David,
Let me restate what I said earlier to more accurately reflect my opinion. " I wish for once that the guys who so bravely led us into the CR would just for once be transparent and honest and admit that in creating a convention with a zeal for correct theology that we lost our focus on evangelism and the lost."

I do know a few of these men and know of their heart for the lost but I don't think that our convention is known for it's heart for the lost. Jesus said that the world would know that we are His followers by our love for one another. We are known as being divided, we boycott and protest and continually change our view on what being a "real" Baptist is and we wonder why the SBC is in decline. I wish we would stop blaming everything on someone else and admit we lost our focus and zeal along the way and became more interested in maintaining the camp versus expanding it.

Peter's post is a perfect example of the partisan type of stuff that often comes out of both sides of the SBC...with no one ever winning.

It sounds like you're a great guy with an open heart to things...the question is "If what we're doing has led us to decline (which wasn't what was promised when the CR lead us into change) then what we do need to change?"
Grady

David R. Brumbelow

Grady,
I appreciate your comments, but I still disagree that our convention has lost its focus on the lost. We can always do better, but I see a convention that has a passionate love for the lost. I believe that for the most part we are both sound in doctrine and we love the lost. At times we are going to decline for any number of reasons. But compare that to the theologically moderate to liberal groups. Also, whether we advance or decline, and we will do both, the gospel is being proclaimed. Without the Conservative Resurgence, and I was part of it, we would be in much worse shape than today.

We are all influenced by the culture, the question is how much is too much. I see much change in the SBC and a desire to reach out to the younger group. Some, not all, of what you refer to may be some good natured ribbing. A pastor in my association showed up with a new modern hair style. I offered him my comb J. We are great friends and he knew I was joking. Sorry, us old guys just have to do things like that.

Be patient, whether us old guys like it or not, in a few years your generation will be running the SBC. As Nathan Lino said in the Southern Baptist Texan, the 45 to 65 year olds are the ones who lead the SBC; before long your generation will be it. That may seem like a long time to you, it doesn’t to me.
David R. Brumbelow

selahV

David, it seems like yesterday we were bucking the "old guys", the set-in-their-ways charter members. Whew. Were we a brazen bunch at times. Now I'm one of the old folks (lady) and I really just have to chuckle at times when I read about the generational divides. As it was then, it is now--half imaginary. Just like the eternal proverbial "they" who don't want to do anything. The biggest problem as Bob and I ministered that we saw was when folks lacked respect for one another. I don't see a lack of love for the lost. In our 23 plus years of ministry, we've seen continual love, continual tears, and generosity and outreach. Was it perfect? No. God must give the lost eyes to see as we preach the Word. We plant, we water, we love and tend, but ONLY God can give the increase. Is anyone blaming God? I'm not. I love the energy and zeal and innovation of young people today. My daughter is a young person. My grandchildren are young people. They are visiting, witnessing, serving and loving the lost. They are teaching, encouraging and leading the saved. I do not think I am the only one who sees this dedication. Patience. Our times are in His hands. selahV

Byroniac

Well, the video is not as scary with the audio turned off! :)

I think part of the video is guilty of distortion, though perhaps unintentionally. At about 5:52 the narration says America has a 1.6 fertility rate, and at about 6:00, it says including the Latino nations brings the fertility rate to 2.11, "the bare minimum required to sustain a culture." However, the video ignores two basic facts: the Latinos as far as I am aware form a separate culture, unless you have a very loose interpretation of "culture" and secondly, if theology means anything at all, what Catholicism teaches (a major part of Latino culture in the U.S. as far as I know) is foreign to the Gospel (though some of the most wonderful people in the world are Catholic; I've known a few). So it comes down to the "US vs. THEM" (Christendom versus Islam) view.

So, the long and short of it is this: you can't win a spiritual salvation of souls game by counting numbers. And it hasn't worked for the SBC yet. It just means we preach and evangelize more, and trust God for the results.

peter lumpkins

Grady,

Thanks for logging on. Also, I appreciate David's dialog with you. And, you are correct--he's a pretty good guy.

A couple of things quickly. Had you thought I "used" the video to compare the dissolving of Western civilization with the foremost concerns raised by many vocal young SBs today, you would have been spot on. Nevertheless, you had to spoil a potential moment of communication by taking the standard line--"attack the "missional" guys." Oh, me.

Second, you think you are one of those "post-modern guys [I] so often rant against." I was about to take you seriously, Grady, until you defined what you think 'postmodern' is--shirt untucked, spikey hair, attend a SBC church without the word SBC in it. Sorry, dude. If you think I have defined and/or ranted against 'postmodernism' in a wrapper like that, all I can do is,...Say wha?

With that, I am...
Peter

volfan007

Grady,

Guess what? When you said,"I am one of the post-modern guys you so often rant against. I wear my shirt untucked, have spikey hair, attend a SBC church without the word SBC in it and guess what....I love Jesus and His church." I have no problem with shirt being untucked, spikey hair, nor with your Church name. I'm sorry to blow your stereotype of us "Old CR guys" that someone has obviously fed you at some seminar or conference, but it just aint so. Oh, I'm sure that there are some birds out there like what you describe, but I'm not one of them, and I know aa lot of old, CR guys that are not like your caricature. Sorry to disappoint you.

I am concerned with sound doctrine.

David

volfan007

Grady,

Also, without sound doctrine, we have no Gospel to preach.

And, I have three young ladies to baptise on Mother's Day, hopefully there will be more to add to that. Also, we have baptised 10 people since January, and when you add the three to be baptised, we will have baptised 13 by May. So, yea, we're concerned about souls and sound doctrine both. They go hand in hand. And, like David B. said, some of the greatest soul winners I know are the CR guys. So, I think that you've been fed a bunch of hooey by some conference leader trying to sound smart and hip, who probably said something like,"We've got to get the Church out of the 1950's."

Also, Grady, I love to hear Jeremy Camp and Casting Crowns. I love the music of Daniel Doss. Do you know who I'm talking about? I know Daniel personally. He's a good friend of mine. In fact, I was probably rocking and rolling before you were even born. I hate ties. I do wear one on Sunday morning....only on Sunday morning; and to funerals and weddings...due to the culture I live in. I'm trying to be missional. :) I drink coffee from Starbucks, whenever I can make it into a town big enough to have one. I drive a pick up truck, and I wear my hair a little different as well.

So, when you go to the seminars, or read books by the crowd that's seemingly fighting the "establishment" in the SBC, just remember that those strawmen do exist, but they are really not the only CR guys, or the BI guys, that are out there. In fact, I know more CR guys and BI guys that are not like what you and the latest fad of hip writer that comes along describe. I mean, you writing on Peter Lumpkin's blog right now. Do you know Peter? Have you seen Peter? Do you know what Peter drives?

Peter is one hip dude, dude.

David

Grady Bauer

Peter
Do you even read your own posts? You wrote up above that the "young" SBC (the negative stuff starts there) are only concerned with
* Be nice
* Say neutral things about deviant lifestyles
* Ask all the non-churched to forgive us (for not being nice and saying non-neutral things about deviant lifestyles)
* Wear jeans when we preach (don't forget the stool!)
* Get cool glasses and shave our heads
* Say "Missional" everywhere we used to say "Vision" (1980s)
* Think "Green"

You define the younger SBC with this definition. Then you go on to say that if we give in to this our kids will be praying to Mecca. You defined the young SBC as a bunch of liberal, jean wearing, shaved head guys...not me. And by the way our convention is in decline....why? The CR as been at the healm for a while now and things aren't turning around...as a matter of fact it looks like most of the lifeboats are already full and they're not turning back around.
I'm so sick and tired of the hypocrisy, you can label young guys, with no examples given, as young green, jean wearing liberals but when the statement is made in the reverse you guys circle up the wagons and start saying the younger guys are petty. Seriously! And by the way I don't attend conferences, I'm too busy studying Arabic and working with Muslims!

Grady Bauer

BTW,
I typically like you "old" guys of which I am quickly moving in the direction of. Please don't hear disrespect for those of you in the CR who truly love God and want the best for the SBC and our world. I do grow tired of the rhetoric on both sides labeling each other as the reason for everything evil in the world. Even in the post above, Peter tells us that if we give in to the young SBC guys that our kids will praying to Mecca....is that divisive or what?

Our culture is in decline and we're following on the heels of Western Europe into post-modernism. Honestly, the young guys aren't the reason Islam is on the rise, Satan is the reason. So instead of shooting at each other why don't we go after the one that is causing the real problems.

peter lumpkins

Grady,

Here's the deal. I'll give you a shiny new nickel for every time you find "postmodern," "postmodernism," or "postmodernity" connected in any way to one's attire, changing names of churches, jeans, spiked hair, or any one of your other niceties you've mentioned on this post or any other I've written. I'll pay quickly.

Second, I have some posts on postmodernism on my site, especially those I did in reviewing Tony Jones' book, The New Christians. And, the focus of those posts, I can say with confidence, is not about bluejeans and spiked hair. I did not have guys like you in mind when I wrote them, I assure. Indeed from my very elementary understanding of the postmodern mindset, the challenges they present are quite formidable; not the ridiculous things I mentioned on the list.

Third, contrary to your assertion, I did not "define the younger SBC with this definition." You must have been so busy typing you forgot to think. Rather what I did do, if you will go back and peek, is list 7 bullets I dubbed a "juvenile agenda" for "becoming relevant."

Now, you may dispute whether any or all of the seven are "juvenile"; that's fair. You may also dispute whether any or all are an "agenda"; that too is reasonable. But to conclude I either defined "the younger SBC with this definition" or that I equated any or all of them with postmodernism is, frankly, a little bit nutty, Grady. And, if I may say so, the level of reading you illustrated concerning my post stands as a major reason why we have the disputes we do--at least the needless ones.

Furthermore,you got it wrong again when you made this boo-boo: "Then you go on to say that if we give in to this our kids will be praying to Mecca." Excuse me? You mean to tell me you read, from the post I wrote, that if we give in to the 7 bullets, Mecca awaits our grandchildren? How on a green earth did you get such from my words, Grady?

Let me state it again: "As this juvenile agenda for "becoming relevant" is being plastered the world over via www., Christianity is at the threshold of cultural extinction." I recall two points and two points only as I wrote that--and the two are clearly still there. I have not changed it. First, the comparison between petty concerns (read: "juvenile agenda") and profound concerns (read: "cultural extinction"). Second, the petty concerns are buzzed about at while the profound concerns are buried (read:"As this juvenile agenda...).

Yet you horribly place on my plate several scoops of burnt beans--if we give in to this [Be nice...Wear jeans, etc] our kids will be praying to Mecca." Uh? What a double Georgia hoot!

The really funny thing is, why you didn't agree with me, Grady. You too think we need to focus on more profound issues--things that matter! My post agrees with you!

Ah, but allowing something to soak in a bit before rattling off one's tongue takes discipline, does it not?

You're welcome to comment all you like. My advice is, please be courteous toward the person's actual words you're attempting to engage, whether I or another. Logging on with keyboard cocked and beginning to finger-babble before your brain kicks in is just not cool

With that, I am...
Peter

Byroniac

Peter, if I'm not mistaken, Muslims are generally required to pray five times a day (talk about a works-based religion!).

Debbie Kaufman

I do know a few of these men and know of their heart for the lost but I don't think that our convention is known for it's heart for the lost. Jesus said that the world would know that we are His followers by our love for one another. We are known as being divided, we boycott and protest and continually change our view on what being a "real" Baptist is and we wonder why the SBC is in decline. I wish we would stop blaming everything on someone else and admit we lost our focus and zeal along the way and became more interested in maintaining the camp versus expanding it.

Grady: You have said it well and I agree. So do many other Southern Baptists which is why changes have and are occurring. We have lost site of this, but I believe because of those such as yourself, we are regaining it. Keep giving your view. You are right on target in my opinion.

Grady Bauer

Debbie,
Thanks for your kind words, they mean more to me than you can know. I deeply care the SBC and world we're trying to reach. Even know as I write this I'm listening to the call to prayer go out over a land of 32 million people that have less than 500 believers among them. In this world style of dress doesn't matter, beliefs on non-essential issues doesn't matter, no conferences are held to help keep the few believers that exist in line with their Christian Identity. It's truly a world of darkness and lostness...and in this environment the truth of Christianity shines brightly in a purity I haven't seen before.

Maybe when the US truly becomes post-Christian and we have to fight for our own survival and existence we will get over these petty differences and stop blaming both young and old for our problems. When views are expressed the way they are on this blog and among it's readership it brings out the worst in some of us (me). This is why people are leaving the convention, not because they're liberal, not because they don't care about theology, and not because they want to be green, nice and wear jeans. They're leaving because the SBC has chosen conformity over creativity and alot of people just say....why mess with it?

Thanks again for bringing a little sanity to the insanity!
Grady

Grady Bauer

I must be a glutten for punishment to go against the all-knowing and powerful Oz but here it goes.

You said to me...
Furthermore,you got it wrong again when you made this boo-boo: "Then you go on to say that if we give in to this our kids will be praying to Mecca." Excuse me? You mean to tell me you read, from the post I wrote, that if we give in to the 7 bullets, Mecca awaits our grandchildren? How on a green earth did you get such from my words, Grady?


You wrote it...
If Southern Baptists are to square off with Islamic totalitarianism, being nice, saying neutral things, asking forgivness, and sporting the latest fashions will count exactly zero toward engaging such a threat. Barring an intellectual renaissance of the mind (not excluding from the mind a decidedly theo-biblical focus), a life-or-death vow to Christ's Lordship, and an old-fashioned, white-hot, spiritual visitation from the Holy Ghost, your grandchildren may very well be bowing toward Mecca three times a day.

peter

Grady,

Thanks. While you quoted me correctly (this time) your conclusion is wrong (as before). And, I 'll be glad to tell you why but not until you deal with the last comment I composed. I am uninterested in conversing with another who ignores what I take the time to write only to bring up something else. I simply don't have the time.

With that, I am...
Peter

Grady Bauer

Peter,
Only an insane person attempts to do the same over and over again while expecting different results. You do an amazing job of speaking down to anyone who attempts to disagree with you. You should draw up a list of beliefs that all people should have to sign off on before they comment....wow, you really are like the SBC. If someone varies from what YOU think is right you belittle them and avoid the issues.

Because I disagree with you and call you into check you call me undisciplined..."Ah, but allowing something to soak in a bit before rattling off one's tongue takes discipline, does it not?"
and then you call me half-cocked...." Logging on with keyboard cocked and beginning to finger-babble before your brain kicks in is just not cool"

Enough Peter, this stuff you're fighting for doesn't matter. I can't speak for every post that you write but for the majority of them....they're not about lost souls or spreading the gospel.....they're all bringing to light the divisive elements within the SBC. You don't seem to value humility but instead strut around with an arrogance...because of course you are the powerful OZ who knows it all. I've asked you countless times why the SBC in in decline under the leadership of the CR and each time you divert and attempt to refocus. And of course your buds stick with you, circle the wagons and go on the defensive.

When the SBC only consists of you and your buds then maybe you'll have to start asking real questions. My Muslim friends don't give a rip whether or not Calvinism belongs in the SBC....they're lost and going to hell while we spend time arguing. Enough....if you refocus your blog to focus on this Great Commission and how we can better fulfill it...I'll come back and dialogue with you about the various ways to make it a reality. But until then I'll leave you to argue about how we can keep a sinking ship free of infidels and Calvinists. So....
With that I am....
Grady
btw, I did think before I wrote this. It is possible for a thinking person to disagree with you.

peter

Grady,

Like I said, don't have time. Blessings.
With that, I am...
Peter

volfan007

Grady,

You sound like a very confused, angry, young man.

David

peter lumpkins

David,

Hey, man. I forget to say, you are correct: I'm one cool dude. By the way, you should stop writing about pastors and deacons being men only. I think we need to 'expand the borders' ;^)...

Byron,

Thanks, I think you are correct about the prayer. Grace!


With that, I am...
Peter

volfan007

Peter,

:)

David

Byroniac

I don't think Grady is all that confused to be honest, not sure how young he is (or isn't), but any anger that's there is probably due to frustration with SBC politics, particularly in the realm of ecclesiology.

It seems to me like the grand solution that's being offered for all of the SBC ills is to return to some ecclesiastical gold standard which either exceeds Scripture in its particulars or tends to lump all doctrines together in terms of importance and applicability. Brothers and sisters in Christ who share the same Savior and the same salvation but not necessarily all the same secondary and tertiary beliefs get separated into man-made categories and classified according to whatever problem they're supposed to represent, then treated accordingly. Yes, I realize that denominations represent real doctrinal divisions which are not artificial and often involve disagreements which are not superficial, but the fact remains there are no such critters in the New Testament that I'm aware of (and I can understand the point of view which says, yes, that means all should be Baptist, though I no longer believe that "Baptist" is good enough or a worthy goal, personally). I'm afraid nothing will ever get better for the SBC until people realize they aren't members of a religious building, don't have to be baptized in officially approved water containers or by officially approved people (Christ is the only real authority), and that membership in a church isn't a good work and doesn't buy you anything with God (though it might possibly impress other people, apparently, who think you actually accomplish something spiritually in the activity). I understand that most Baptists don't agree with me, even those on the fringe of the SBC possibly, and that's fine. I'm not even angry when I write this--just puzzled.

Sorry, Peter, but I had to rant. Wish you all the best. For me personally, I'm just marginally Baptist (Baptistic), and though I have membership in the SBC and will likely keep it there, it's no longer an avenue of opportunity for me. I prefer simple fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ, both in and out of the SBC.

Byroniac

Something else I wanted to add is that I believe that despite the best of intentions and the sincerest of purposes, denominations can (and often do) cause divisions in the body of Christ, and hinder individual walks with Christ (as in my own life, I can say this quite honestly and openly). For example, I think church autonomy is good and necessary, but it can be carried too far. If I have a real flesh-and-blood brother who goes to a different church in a different state and we're close (despite the physical distance), no doubt I'll hear of many "internal matters" in the church (hopefully the majority of which would be good) and all would be interesting to me because they affect my brother according to the flesh. But if he is "merely" my brother in Christ, in the same denomination (SBC) as I am, but goes to a different church, it becomes a church autonomy matter and I am considered an "outsider" at least of sorts. I guess it goes to show that in theory we have the closest kinship possible on Earth, being in Christ and of His body, but in practice, it's more like membership in a collective of friendly, competing businesses wishing to keep their internal activities and finances mostly secret. That no longer computes to me, and I'm pretty sure it's beginning not to compute to several people out there, either.

We need to make the main thing (the main Person) the main thing. And I think a good hint is, try to imagine serving Christ without the SBC, as if it did not exist at all (but I am NOT saying it should not!), and imagine Christ as the only one who matters (again, I am not saying anyone is NOT doing this already).

All I'm trying to say is this is part of what my "hangup" is with the SBC, and I do not see a quick and easy resolution to it personally (any resolution really). I do not want to offend anyone by my words, because I can read Volfan007's comments for example, and see someone who's genuine in their intentions. But for me, this idea of belonging to Christ and being part of His body is the most important part of it, more than any Baptist Identity (whatever that is) or denominational fellowship or even the "Baptist" label. I hope someone will consider my words, especially since I'm late to the having-my-eyes-opened game and I'm not the only one out there. Thanks.

The comments to this entry are closed.