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2009.04.14

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volfan007

Peter, you were born in the fifties? Man, you are old. I was born in 1961. Us young Pastors like what you've written here, though. I believe that you hit the ole nail on the head. I really believe that all of this kind of talk by certain people is definitely creating generational bias. It's also stirring up a war between the "old" Pastors and the "young" Pastors. I keep hearing all of this talk....like some of the things that Grear says in his post...and it really seems to be divisive. Also, it concerns me that there seems to be many in the younger crowd that sees no importance in staying true to clearly spelled out doctrines in the Bible that we Baptists have held dear for a long, long time.

Thanks for the critique. You did good.

David

Bill Poore

Peter,
Thanks for speaking up for us old pastors who grew up in the 50's when our churches were full every sunday.
Bill Poore,
Born 1944
Died 20--

Tim B

Peter,

The funny thing about these young guys and wasteful convention beaucracy is that it is only wasteful beaucracy until they need it. It isn't wasteful when it is helping to pay for their college and seminary. It isn't wasteful beaucracy when it is facilitating their involvement in missions. It is also funny to watch how they criticize the Associational missionary as wasteful until they get in trouble in their church or need a recommendation or funding for something. They mock the local pastor's conference as a waste of time but when they get fired from their churches they show up every week.

There are some things that I would cut or change about the way we carry out ministry in our association, state convention and the SBC. In some cases what we invest in some areas is disproportionate to its priority as it relates to our Mission. My point is simply that with this bunch, "beaucratic waste" is a moving target that will never be resolved in their minds.

Tim

joe white

Peter,

I would just like to reemphasize what both you and Pastor Greear have said. Greear wrote that he has "not been appointed spokesmen for anybody." Likewise, you noted that this is what young Southern Baptists are "supposed to be thinking." However; Greear does act as if he is "appointed" to speak for the young SBC Pastors, and you seem to believe that indeed this is what young SBC pastors are "supposed to be thinking". My question is why can't Greear speak for himself, and why can't your rebuttal be towards him alone?

Sorry; but as a 33 year old SBC pastor, I would really like to see people own their remarks and beliefs instead of saying... "these things are fairly representative of the many I interact with." Also, I would appreciate those who read such statements to see them in that light, and not take their word for it that it represents an entire generation.

There, I feel better. :)

PS... I agree with your critic of Greear's 3 points, just not your critic of "young SBC pastors" in general.

peter lumpkins

All,

If I appear uninterested in dialog, know it is appearance alone. My home network is going under reconstruction presently. When I get on line it's because I ran up to the coffee shop logged on. Hopefully, I'll have cyber-lightening soon.

With that, I am...

Peter

volfan007

Tim B.,

You are exactly right in your opening paragraph of your comment. Well said. I've noticed the same thing. When they need the funds to start the new, contemporary, missional Church that they are dreaming about, then they come to the old Pastors and traditional Churches to fund them. Then, after they get started, they criticize the traditional Churches and the old Pastors. Funny how that works.

Not Old Yet,

David

peter lumpkins

David,

You better believe I was born in the 1950s--53 to be exact. What's funny is, young folk too many times forget the 1960s guys like me were raised in. We redefined the unconventional and the upsetting of all things 'traditional'

As for the warfare between old & young to which you alluded, David, I think is a great point. In addition, the threat Greear and some other young guys have made to "leave the SBC" if we're not willing to meet their demands tells one alot about what many of these guys are thinking.

Grace, David. With that, I am...

Peter

peter lumpkins

Bill,

You are welcome, brother. Let me know when you die, will you? I'd like to keep up :^)

Tim,

David is right; your comment is white-hot. Greear himself served the IMB for two years if I understood his bio correctly. Is the IMB filled with excessive spending? Was his position excessive? I don't know. I'm fairly confident the trustees know.

There is not one entity we have which would look the same if another person was serving it as ED. Some things would be instantly cut because spending in that area was, in their view, "excessive." Others may receive more than ever and even then considered low!

For the record, I too have had questions about certain spending. Yet I personally am uncomfortable screaming foul without having the prroper data to do so. To make general statements like "most CP monies are wasted in excessive overhead" without the least bit of evidence to substantiate it, in my view, breeeds suspicion and negativism toward the SBC and, for that reason, are reckless.

With that, I am...

Peter

peter lumpkins

Joe,

Why you little twit. I oughta turn you over my knee and spank you till you say your mama's name thirty-two times! Just kidding...;^)

No, you have a good question. But actually I thought I made it plain enough my critique is mine alone and belongs to no other. As for why I should not have left it at that, I can only say, because it would have been inaccurate. There are many whom, I believe, the concerns I raised represent similarly what concerns they raise. Heck you even agreed with me! And, you're what? 29? 30?

The point is, by no stretch can this post be pulled enough to wrap around a pole called "my group-thinks." Instead it's "I think"; but there's some others I think thinks this way too. In that light, I've but stated my opinion, that's all. And, you are free to disagree! There; we both feel better now :^)

Have a good afternoow, my brother Joe. With that, I am...

Peter

joe white

Peter,

You are too funny, and I am looking forward to that new book.

I do think, however, that you might be missing my point. Please allow me to further illustrate the issue that I am taking with your post. You wrote... "First, contrary to the way it sounds sometimes from younger Southern Baptists, being old does not mean being stupid." Is the point of contention with "younger Southern Baptists" in general or just some of them? Then you wrote... "Second, when I hear young Southern Baptists suggest "we are grateful for the 1950’s but know they are not coming back" I wonder the seriousness of dialogue on this level." Are you hearing this from young Southern Baptists or J.D. Greear and a couple others? Then you followed that up with... "Third, Greear and presumably many young Southern Baptist pastors possess an unusual understanding of "orthodoxy." I cannot agree with this presumption.

My concern is that the squeaky wheel is getting all the attention. I would have liked to have seen the word "some", more in this post... as in... some younger Southern Baptists. :)

selahV

hey Peter, I want "some" folks to expand on that meeting that Ed Stetzer is having with some young pastors in the SBC to change the SBC. Where can I get info about that meeting? did he blog about it? Who is billing it the way you describe? Anything special on the agenda? selahV

Timotheos

Peter,

I hope you will allow another "old man" to have a little fun at your expense.

You ask, "If there was something inadequate about my wine, I want to know what is was/is."...to which I reply (tongue firmly in cheek), "Why, your wine is no doubt unfermented, Peter - an obvious and insurmountable inadequacy!"

Curmudgeonly yours,

Timotheos

Chris Poe

Selah V,

I assume Peter is alluding to the Baptist21 meeting to be held during this year's SBC in Louisville

peter lumpkins

Selahv,

Chris is right. Check out this link---\

http://www.baptisttwentyone.com/?p=1704

No politics though! :^)


Timotheos,

Ah, but you have perhaps not had the delight of tasting what I recently enjoyed--a glass (paper cup) of authentic unfermented wine from Poland. The delicious beverage was preepared 6 months ago. Chris & I added 2 parts water to 1 part wine. The result? The sweetest, delicacy (outside of something with java beans) I think I've ever tasted! I could have drunk an entire gallon had I so desired but no toxic effects forthcoming.

Grace.

With that, I am...

Peter

peter lumpkins

Joe,

Thanks. The book is due for release June 1st. I have some very good feedback from several SBC leaders to whom I sent a draft for review.

Perhaps I did miss your point. All I can say is, I was referring to--in the critique--those of whom Greear was referring to--his "many young Southern Baptist pastors." I do not count you in "his" many. Not only have you made it clear he doesn't speak for you, but it's obvious to anyone with a brain even 2 quarts low, as a young pastor, you dance to another beat, a delightful I-don't-have-to-embrace-groupthink-to-be-in-God's-will attitude. I identify with such for I find myself carrying a rogue-card at times as well.

Interestingly, Greear's "many" has a sub-culture strata all their own--usually the same books, same "cool" tools, same favorite speakers, same conferences, same language, same concerns, same online resources for media-driven worship stuff, etc, etc. Indeed from now on, I may refer to them simply as "The Greear Group."

Grace, Joe. If ever I get up to your side of Tennessee, I want ot pop in.

With that, I am...

Peter

David R. Brumbelow

Peter,
That Polish unfermented wine - just make sure you drink it moderately :-).
David R. Brumbelow

Debbie Kaufman

Peter: You couldn't be further from the truth in your last comment. We are losing younger pastors. No matter how loud the denial, the numbers show that isn't true. They are committed to Christ and the Bible. They are not trying to be cool, but not all of culture is a sin. Separating from culture isn't the answer, it's certainly not how you are going to reach people. Again, missionaries should be the model. Do they separate from the culture of the country they are in, or do they engage in it to some degree? The latter would be the answer. Engaging in culture is not a sin. God gave us all good things to enjoy.

It seems to me you are getting your BI into a wad for no reason.

Luke Tolbert

Peter,

What do you know about JD Greer's church?

Maybe you should do you research before you also start calling him a "young heckling smart aleck." Just a cursory search yielded this blog post about their giving of 21% to missions and evangelism outside his church.

http://jdgreear.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/06/being-young-and-southern-baptist-ed-stetzger-paige-patterson-etc.html

I am grateful for the CP because that is how I am educated at at God-glorifying seminary for little to no cost. However, I grow frustrated when the State of NC takes 65% of our CP giving with only 35% making it to the national level. That means only 25 cents of every dollar eventually finds its way to the IMB or NAMB.

BTW, the Baptist 21 meeting is not political minded. I know many of the young men that are working to put it together. They are only trying to have young Baptists involved in the convention...what politics are you afraid of?

peter lumpkins

Luke,

Thanks. First, I know little about Greear's church. But this post is not about his church. Hence, I needn't know much. Second, I am grateful you are getting a good education at an SBC seminary where SBs foot most of the bill for you.

I am unfamiliar with the break-down of NC. Dr. Akin seems to think they're doing a good job, attempting to make some equities. As for citing raw percentages to make one's case, I find such inadequate in itself to cry foul. Sorry. I'd have to see the footnotes.

Third, as for the rally at Louisville, I did not know I expressed fear, Luke. If you could be specific, I'd be glad to address it. I will say, to deny the meeting has political leanings is, in my view, naive.

Hope you have a great Lord's Day tomorrow. With that, I am...
Peter

Luke Tolbert

Peter,

You said "In other words, most of the money is spent to run Greear's machine instead of getting to Greear's neighborhood." So, though the entire post is not about his church, that quote clearly is.

As for the percentages, you can access the 2009 CP Budget for NC here:
http://www.ncbaptist.org/fileadmin/ncbaptist.org_graphics/Business_Srvs/Docs/2009_NewCooperative_Program_Budget.pdf

The most generous of the four giving plans still only allows 35-36% to the national level.

Third, I apologize that I mistook the post for fear. However, what political happenings are you expecting to happen from this meeting? I think any of the meetings that happen during the convention (Pastor's conference, Founders Conference, Seminary Luncheons, etc.) have the potential to be political, but that doesn't mean they have to be political.

I think any meeting that encourages our young SBC-ers to attend is helpful given the drastic decline in the attendance of young pastors at the annual convention over the past 25 years. (Lifeway Research has the statistics on this change)

peter lumpkins

Luke,

First, if you want to believe this post is about Greear's church, be my guest.

Second, I have no reason to visit NCs budget for it belongs to NC Baptists not me. Though were I you, unless I knew precisely what each of the items mean in each line, I'd be hesitant to make general conclusions. But that's just me.

Third, your citing of the potential of many events to be "political" quite nicely proves my point, Luke. The original concern I raised in Greear's publication dealt with his assertion that young SB pastors are uninterested in ascending in SBC politics. A meeting which promotes coming to find out how to become involved in the denomination in order to change the denomination's flawed structure is, in my view, Luke, a paradox to the alleged disinterest in politics. If you do not see it, I think you have the perfect right to do so.

Grace today. With that, I am...

Peter

Debbie Kaufman

Spoken like a true SBC politician Peter. :)

Grady Bauer

What I love about your blog and the mindset of many within the SBC is the duality of properness. You consider it completely proper to continually write negatively about the "young" SBC....which by the way is almost an oxymoron since they're leaving by the bus-load. If Greear wrote a post blasting all the old guys you would have a cow and accuse him of heresy for attacking one of God's chosen ones.

I'm one of these so called "young" SBC guys you like to blame for everything. And I live overseas sharing Christ with a very lost Muslim culture. I study their culture and adapt to it. I don't live in a complex hidden safely away from their culture. I need to know their language, religion and culture so I can look for effective ways to build bridges into their lives. My and wife and I dress Western and kind of modest as a good blend between the two. This is what it's all about. If you "old" guys live long enough (me too) we're going to see the same thing in the US.

Europe is the future and the US isn't far behind. We're quickly heading towards a secular society with out beloved bible-belt being nothing more than a chapter in church history. The day is coming when we will no longer be able to be isolated in our beloved white churches listening each other blast the world and it's evil ways while listening to out of date music and eating casseroles on the lawn. Those days are over for us...our society has changed and will continue to change and we cannot afford to become irrelevant. I don't pray in a Mosque or fast during Ramadan because I have the freedom not to and I'm not suggesting that we smoke crack and endorse gay marriage to fit in either...but come on. Is it really evil of me or unbiblical of me to dress like my friends do? You dress like your SBC friends? Is it evil to have our own speakers or leaders? You guys definitely do. Our own conferences? John 3:16...seriously not political?

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