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2009.03.31

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Chris Poe

Oh no, Peter. A "Landmarker" educated at Andover? This cannot be. :)

Chris Gilliam

Here is the money quote:
"Ten thousand sophistries are swept away by simple adherence to a sound principle."

Perhaps this exposes our real lord on this matter so openly debated today, our mind, intellecualism.

God forbid! Let God be God and everyman a liar! I strive for the plain teaching.

Thanks for this very invigorating essay!

Timotheos

Hey Peter,

I know this post is directed to that dreaded subspecies of SBCville which might go by the name of say, the "Burlesonites," :^), but my comment is not so much tied to that debate, so I hope it does not get too tangled up in that mess.

I cannot help but note the audacious assertions of Dr. Burrows with regard to the intent of the Lord's Supper, e.g. "that the Lord's Supper was not instituted or intended to express the fellowship or love of Christians for one another...Do Christians come to the Lord's table to commune with each other? Is taking the Lord's Supper a communion of the saints? Is this a ceremony intended to express, as Christians, mutual remembrance, fellowship, and affection for one another? Emphatically, No!"

That Jesus desired to sit at the Table with His disciples in communion with them, and that this communion - though surely originating with, and focusing upon, the Lord of the Table - was also directly, pointedly to portray the unity of His nascent body (which decidedly IS the communion of the saints in the household of God) is made abundantly clear by a careful reading of I Corinthians 10 & 11 (to mention only one example).

When Paul chastised the Corinthians for their "progressive" sexuality (chapter 5), part of his judgment towards the unrepentant was that the rest of the fellowship was not even to eat with them, contextually very likely a reference to their fellowship at the Lord's Table.

Dr. Burrows' emphatic "No!" above suffers (or should suffer, in my opinion) violence on the shoals of a less sectarian - and certainly a more attentive - interpretation.

Timotheos

joe white

Peter,

This is a good post, however, the picture is hillarious. Thanks, it made my day.

Scott Morgan

Peter,

As a "Baptistic Calvinist" I agree fully with this post !!! I get frustrated on one hand that I see (some) fellow Baptistic Calvinist get looser and looser on this issue of the ordinances of Baptism and the Lord's Supper. At times I see a "Free Pass" to padeobaptist because we line up on the five points of the doctrines of grace which no free pass should be given sine we have no authority to do so. Also, I see non Baptistic Calvinist in the SBC erve the Lord's Supper too loosely also. The SBC church I pastor is a closed communion church. We are Baptistic in our church doctrine because we see the Scripture teaching this.

Last, I get frustrated with some of the Baptist Identity guys because of their view of alcohol. We serve wine for communion because that is what Christ ordained to represent His blood. No one has ever had any authority to change from wine to grape juice !!! I do not social drink because I do fear my wicked heart but it is never an issue taking the wine at communion. Both sides need to get more scriptural. I get charged because I'm a calvinist that I'm too loose on the wine issue because we serve it only at the Lord's Table. It amazes me that Paul never rebuked Corinth for the element of wine but he did rebuke them because they were drunk which is a sin !! Thanks for the post and you and I have talked by phone before. I'm a GA boy !!!

Alan Cross

Question:

So, from Matthew 28:19-20, he is saying that people should first become disciples of Christ, then be baptized, then take communion, right?

"The order for those addressed by Christ's ministers is: first, to become disciples; second, to be baptized; third, to observe whatsoever Christ has commanded. Is it possible, to convey in human language instructions plainer than these?"

Is he equating becoming a disciple with being converted? If so, then why do we "disciple" people and have discipleship? How do you become a disciple before you obey what Christ has commanded?

The point of what I am saying is that he seems to be joining together being a disciple of Christ with being converted - something that our modern churches do not do. I think that our problem could be much bigger than who takes communion. Unless we are just arguing semantics, it appears that the very nature of conversion and discipleship is also up for discussion.

Many who have been baptized by immersion in Baptist churches are not disciples, or students, or followers of Christ. They were possibly converted, then baptized, then they partake of the Lord's Supper. THEN, they begin the process of discipleship, if at all. Either he is just using different language than we use today (which is an important clarification to make) or he has a different understanding of conversion, which would also be helpful to note.

peter lumpkins

Chris & Chris,Joe

Always a pleasure for you guys to comment. And I'm glad Joe got a kick from the pic. It is a good one :^)

Grace to all.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Scott,

Yes I remember! I trust things are well on your side of town. As for the BI's supposed "view of alcohol" I cannot make the same assumption as do you. I haven't the faintest idea what "their" view of alcohol is. Where did you get they had an official view? I have a view, which, for the record, will be explained in more detail come June 1st.

As for your use of alcoholic wine in your church--since you are an autonomous church--I'm not getting why anyone would make a fuss out of that. Perhaps an association, etc. may not agree. Therefore their autonomy allows them to pull away from your church. But then again, you should have no problem with that, since your embrace Baptist ecclesiology.

As for your assumptions concerning the change from "wine to grape juice" and "Both sides need to get more scriptural," I can only say, I question both. There is sufficient evidence to upset the first. As for the second, --"both sides need to get more scriptural"--I'm confused how "your"side is supposed to get "more scriptural" when you think you're following Scripture by using alcoholic wine and those on the "other" side are not.

Grace, Scott. With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Timotheos,

Hope you are doing well. Your question is a good one. Unfortunately when one is pulling snippets from a long sermon, tract, etc. it's hard to know what to quote and what to expunge. Burrows dealt with 1Cor.10.

Allow me to quote his words and then you can follow up if you like:

"To his disciples "the Lord was made known in the breaking of bread." After they were baptized, we are told, "they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread, and in prayers." Here the breaking of bread was not the fellowship, but something distinguished from it as clearly as the doctrine and the prayers. The fellowship is one thing; the breaking of bread is another and different thing.

"The cup which we bless, -is it not the communion of" what? Of Christians with one another? No "the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" [1Cor.10:16-17]

This is the only passage in which the word 'communion' occurs at all in connection with the Lord's Supper. Communion of the blood and body of Christ is communion with Christ in the sufferings and death of which the cup and the loaf are the expressive symbols.

This,then,is the design of the Lord's Supper, "to show his death" "to do this in remembrance of him." And that this is its purpose the experience of all spiritually minded Christians corroborates. When you piously partake of the Lord's Supper is your brother in your thought and heart, or is your Lord? Are you meditating on their excellences, or on his sufferings? Is it esteem for them, or love for him that you cherish? If the heart is in harmony with the solemn service, it is full of Christ, not of Christians."

Such may give a fuller perspective.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Alan,

Thanks for your comment. I don't think you've given Burrows the clarity he deserves. While you quote him well enough, your question avoids what he says elsewhere. You wondered, "Is he equating becoming a disciple with being converted?" Note the words right before your quote:

"What, then, according to the gospel, ought the Christian to be and to do in order to come rightly to the supper of the Lord? I answer: first, converted; second, baptized."

"The plain order, then, is for the minister, first, to disciple that is, so to present the claims and motives of the gospel as to win souls to Christ; for thus only can they be discipled;"


Thus, while "becoming a disciple" begins conversion it is not "equated with" conversion. Burrows speaks clearly. I'm therefore confused why you inject confusion into his words, Alan.

As for "it appears that the very nature of conversion and discipleship is also up for discussion" I am at a loss for words.

Now, Alan, Burrows had a question which you failed to answer: "Now, where in this distinct line of sequences comes in the Lord's Supper? Before the discipleship? Before baptism?"

With that, I am...
Peter

Alan Cross

Peter,

I was not trying to inject confusion into Burrows' words. I noticed what he said about conversion and then he used the term disciple to describe the same thing. He himself interchanged the terms as descriptive of the initial state of the believer before baptism. I actually do not have a problem with that and was not trying to make a value judgment on what he was saying. I said that it is not consistent with what our modern churches teach, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I was not criticizing Burrows or trying to make him say something different from what he was saying. I was wondering if he was trying to make a larger point that to come to Christ initially required a commitment to discipleship, something lacking in modern churches. Faith AND repentance would seem to suggest that. We talk about faith but not repentance. I was wondering if there was even a larger insight that we could extrapolate from Burrows' teachings that would give us insight into what Baptists of the mid-19th century thought about the conversion-discipleship process, which would then help us understand better his view on Communion.

It was a question that made sense to me. Sorry if it did not to anyone else. Peter, I am not trying to be your enemy nor am I attempting to disagree with everything you say. Your post sent my thinking in a different direction so I thought I would ask you about it as I have recently become interested in this topic and I am trying to understand it better.

peter lumpkins

Alan,

"Peter, I am not trying to be your enemy nor am I attempting to disagree with everything you say." I reread my comment. How you may have gained such an impression, Alan, I do not know.

As for Burrows' larger point, I personally don't see one but it could be there. I tend to take the purpose as he states it--"the main objection...'You refuse us recognition and fellowship by declining to partake with us the Supper of the Lord.' My first answer to this is, that the Lord's Supper was not instituted or intended to express the fellowship or love of Christians for one another..."

The accusation was, Baptists are bigots because they do not receive at the Table those who've not been baptized (paedo-baptists): "To us our brethren of other churches are beloved Christians, but they are unbaptized Christians, and we hold that they ought to be baptized before coming to the Lord's table." By deduction, he's of course, arguing that no one may partake, even if he or she has made faith's profession or in his terms, "become disciples via conversion" in a Baptist church.

With that, I am...
Peter

Alan Cross

You seemed to suggest that I was deliberately injecting confusion in Burrows' words. Also, you statement that "you were at a loss for words" in response to my comment also seemed to suggest that you thought I was intentionally trying to be combative. I am just trying to assure you that my question was legitimate and that I was not trying to be oppositional.

Back to the point - I don't necessarily disagree with Burrows in what he is saying. He makes some strong points. But, 1 Cor. 11 does seem to point to a horizontal and relational aspect to the Lord's Supper in that it matters how we treat one another when approaching the Table. Of course, that can be easily dismissed as simply being an outworking of our relationship with Christ and that the vertical relationship with Jesus is all that is in view here. Fair enough. But, I would caution against an individualized, privatized faith that is just "me and Jesus." Loving our neighbor is a direct result of loving God. John 17:20-23 tells us that our in our communion with Christ we are also joined together with one another. I am not saying that that is what the Lord Supper directly represents so I am not missing Burrows' point here. We are to take it in remembrance of Jesus. But, does the work of Christ not bring all of those who believe in Him into God's family? Is it right to say that when I approach the Lord's Table "I shall certainly strive to forget you." And, "There our thoughts and hearts are to be so full of Christ as to leave no room for memories of one another. I have nothing to do with man at the table of the Lord. My intercourse and fellowship there are solely with Jesus." If that is the case, then why not just take the Lord's Supper at home and forget about the Body of Christ altogether? What is the purpose of coming to the Table together? Is this why Baptists traditionally sit in their seats while individual little cups of juice and individual wafers are passed out to the them and they take it by themselves? If so, that would make sense.

Just for clarification, I am asking questions regarding the individual nature of Burrows' take on the Lord's Supper. I am not disputing his assertion of the conversion-baptism-commuion sequence that he puts forward from Matthew 28:19-20.

Timotheos

Yes, the further quotes help allay my concerns abit, though not completely. The perspective Dr. Burrows seems to espouse tends towards a "me-and-Jesus-only" understanding, both of salvation and the ordinances. In the light of rereading Scripture, I've had to rethink some of my own rather individualist ideas on these topics, and rethink how I should relate to other brethren who might be quite different than me in theology and hermeneutic. Thanks.

Timotheos

Byroniac

Peter,

Just a question, and I'm not necessarily trying to assume my usual "loyal opposition" role, as it were. ;)

Were any of the apostles baptized at Christ's Supper? Of course, Jesus was baptized, but I keep thinking of John 3:10 and John 15:3 concerning His apostles. So, if I am not mistaken, why were they not baptized?

I believe that immediately after true conversion a Christian must be fully baptized by immersion in order to be obedient. Personally, though I have argued for it in the past, I am not even comfortable with unbaptized Christians partaking of the Lord's Supper (really, I am not comfortable with them remaining unbaptized). I've been rethinking some of my theology on this recently. So the question I have is not a challenge, but one of curiosity.

volfan007

Byroniac,

Something else to ponder, as you ponder. Why would they not get baptised, if they're truly converted? Why would a Believer not get baptised? Maybe that should shed some light on taking the Lord's Supper as an unbaptised person.

David

Byroniac

David, those are excellent questions. And that is what caused my current theology to crack. I must submit to the authority of Scripture on the matter, and I am trying to understand it better.

Debbie Kaufman

And what of new Christians who have not gotten to the step of baptism yet. Some do not fully understand, or have not taken the step. My own father was a Christian, belonged to a Baptist church and had not realized he needed to be immersed(he was baptized in another denomination before salvation). Should he have been denied the Lord's supper?

peter lumpkins

Debbie,

From an historic Baptist standpoint, the Lord's Supper possesses no sacramental efficacy and therefore the illustrations do not count against Burrows' view. On the other hand, if a believer wants to partake the Supper, no better time exists than the present to properly instruct them in the gospel order: faith > baptism > supper.

With that, I am...
Peter

Byroniac

Well I don't guess my question will ever get any response. So be it.

Luke

Byron,
Having just seen your question, I'll take a stab at it. The night of their taking the Lord's Supper with Jesus, their baptism was probably already completed. I take that from the fact that they were baptizing with Jesus. Some of the disciples had been with John and were probably helping in John's baptism. So, concerning explicit text that the disciples were baptized, I am not so sure that I can point to any that answer your question directly. But since Jesus was so against hypocrisy, I find it untenable that His disciples themselves would baptize having not been baptized themselves.

Luke

Byroniac

Luke,

Sounds reasonable to me. The Apostle Paul was baptized I read, and I think I can safely assume that Andrew and the other disciple who previously followed John the Baptist were baptized (from John 1). But then I read that some who were baptized under John the Baptist were re-baptized (Acts 19:3-5). I just thought it was interesting question, and one that I was curious about. BTW, I agree. I just wish Scripture stated it explicitly.

Luke

Byron,

I too wonder if they were "anna"-baptized like the Acts passage. Also, Byron, I think that John's baptism had a different picture than what we practice. It is quite possible then that Jesus baptized them during the 40 days after His resurrection though from the Biblical text, it would be next to argue that this is what took place. In fact, a majority of what took place after the resurrection is unrecorded. However, I think in the grand scheme, that the formula is, repent, believe and be baptized. And I don't think that it takes a 6 weeks class to arrive at the point that baptism is important for the new convert. I make it a point when I share the Gospel to tell them that baptism is the first step of obedience after salvation. Your Acts 19 passage would be what I would use for support.

Byroniac

Luke, I agree. I didn't realize it before, but you could back up to Acts 9 and use the example of Paul the Apostle. I think that is the proper order, and good timing (immediately after conversion).

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