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2008.07.07

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volfan007

Peter, once again, you've outdone yourself. This was very good, and it helped me understand much. I guess the natural question is...why do the Founders crowd insist on the SBC being founded on the five points when there's so much evidence to the contrary? And, why cant they see it? Or, why wont they give any significance to some of the writings and quotes that you have pulled out from history? I think I know the answer, but I'd like to hear what you think.

David

Byron

I guess that those believers who are genuine Calvinists have always been in the minority, even in SBC history. I need to research Baptist history and see, though. As a Calvinist, however, I would not be threatened to find out this was the case. This would simply serve reminder as to the necessity of brotherly love and humility among all true believers. The same Paul, who in my personal opinion was a Calvinist, wrote the famous chapter on genuine love in 1 Corinthians 13, which we would all do well to heed (especially me).

peter lumpkins

David,

Thanks. Arguing that Five Point Calvinism was virtually universal among Baptists of the 19th century is the proverbial Achilles heel which questions Founders claims to the "historic" Baptist position.

It is true that Calvinism was a pervasive presence among early Baptists. It is also true that the writing theologians leaned heavily in the Calvinist direction.

Furthermore, it is true that many, many--perhaps most--churches utilized The Philadelphia Confession of Faith as their founding document.

What Founders seem to overlook is:

a) While Calvinism was a pervasive force, Calvinism was neither universal nor stable. Calvinism was never entirely embraced and Calvinism continually waned in influence, similar to an inflated tire with a slow leak. It continues to bleed out.

b) While the writing theologians like Dagg and Boyce were decidedly Calvinist, they failed often to convince seminary students that Calvinism rules. Z.T. Cody studied under Boyce. He came away a NonCalvinist. Kerfoot and Dargan softened Calvinism after Boyce died.

E.C. Dargan, who went to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary as Professor of Theology in 1892, wrote what may even embarrass some NonCalvinists (I wouldn't say it like this!):

"It does not put the matter too strongly to say that man's part is necessary. If he is to be saved he must have a hand in the work" (quoted in Wiley, p.97).

As for why Founders do not account for these evidences, I can only imagine. My own guess is, if it can be shown that Five Point Calvinism possessed a lessor role in the formation of the SBC than virtually universal--which is what Founders insist--the entire focus on "getting back to our historical roots" is moot. What historical roots? Calvinism and NonCalvinism? That's what we have in our convention now.

c) Just because a church has a particular confession or covenant, does not mean the particular confession or covenant is applicable to who or what the church is later or even if they ever utilized it after the initial adoption.

It's soft evidence to argue from a Church's "founding document" to the church's functional existence, which, unfortunately is what many Founders do who suggest we just take a look at all the churches that had The Philadelphia Confession as their theological document. This proves nothing about the life of the church itself.

Grace. With that, I am...

Peter

peter lumpkins

Byron,

Thanks. Sorry for not responding sooner. Strangely, your comment never comes to my email as do all other comments on my site. I know without checking the site when others comment but not you. For some reason, Typepad does not like your email address :^(

Anyway, I think you'll find that Baptist history will produce not a few of your genetic pool, including Southern Baptists specifically. I did not mean to imply that Calvinists were few and far between. Rather,

a) Calvinists weren't ubiquitous as our Founders brothers imply

b) Calvinism possessed a "slow leak" the entirety of the 19th century, so much so, that Cody, for example, could write, without rebuke (at least, not in print at that time; I looked!), at the crossing into the 20 century, he knew of no Baptist church that held to 5P Calvinism.

With that, I am...

Peter

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