« An Unapologetic Conservative for Environmentalism: It's Time to Wake Up | Main | Evangelical Orthodoxy & Baptist Orthodoxy: Are The Two Identical? »

2008.05.15

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Byron

Peter, forgive me but I have to ask: what is with the SBC logo?

peter lumpkins

Byron,

I'm not sure I understand. What's wrong with it?

With that, I am...

Peter

Byron

Well, I noticed that use the old logo for SBC Communications, which is now part of AT&T. I wondered if you were implying that ecumenicism in the SBC would eventually swallow up the (religious) SBC into another entity, similar to what has happened in the business world with the SBC (Communications) and AT&T. But I was surprised to not find any hint of that in your blog article.

For the record, I have not read the EM. I am not ecumenical in the sense of supporting ECT, and probably not in supporting EM. At least, this is my opinion after reading Mohler and Caner (though I have not read Foster yet).

James

Peter, you write, "One could just as well, and even more, lament the absence of Inerrancy among today's proud evangelicals who attached their names to the EM." Have you, as I, lamented the fact that there was a great deal of turmoil within the life of the SBC for over twenty years and then, when the BFM 2000 was released, there was no mention whatsoever of "inerrancy" in the first article dealing with Scripture?

cb scott

I think the logo is "purddy":-)

peter lumpkins

Byron,

No hidden allusion in the "SBC"; it's just purddy as our CB intimates...

James,

On one level I suppose I could say "yes" with you. My consolation is, that "truth without any mixture of error" historically has meant the equivalent of "inerrancy" and, in my view, a much better description than is the term "inerrant", which as Packer pointed out so long ago that really is a double-negative word.

It took a generation of Baptists to bleed out of "truth without any mixture of error" the embedded concept of inerrancy, making it only "authorative" or "infallible but not inerrant".

So, in essence, the post-Resurgence BF&M recaptured the original intent of "truth without any mixture of error" or "inerrancy", if you please. Others may have a different take. But that's mine.

Grace. With that, I am...

Peter

Byron

Peter, sorry, I am still confused. That particular logo belongs to SBC Communications (e.g., Southwestern Bell), now part of AT&T. Though I doubt that AT&T would mind, mind you.

As an aside, here's a link to download the Baptist SBC logo (they are pretty strict about its use I see):

http://www.sbc.net/localchurches/sbclogo.asp

John Daly

How seriously could we consider a lay-person as a possible SBC presidential candidate? I think it would help bridge the Great Divide between the two camps and I do sincerely believe there is such a divide. Or at the very least, could we consider a bi-vocational guy?

Oh I'm sure there is some clause, somewhere, that prevents a lay-person from advancing too far beyond the moat, and into the inner courts.

John in St. Louis

Chris Johnson

Brother Peter,

Good post, and your points are clear.

On the definitions:

"Sin" is a biblical word, strong, ominous and serious.
"Truth" is a biblical word, strong, ominous and serious.

"Inerrant" doesn't seem to fit into the same category as the biblical words above, although I can't see any reason to dismiss its intent and in some ways it does help steer us back to what should be understood. But, truth is a much stronger word than inerrant, just as sin is a much stronger word than "?".

Can you explain more why we should more protective of "inerrant", than "truth"?

Blessings,
Chris

peter lumpkins

John,

A "lay" person is not at all out of the question though I think it may too late this year. A great Christian leader comes to mind who is a "layman" is Truett Cathey, founder of Chik-fil-A. I'm sure there are others.

I just happen to know of Mr. Cathey since I live so close to him and Atlanta is the home of the original store.

There are no inherent rules why a "layman" or a Bi-vocational pastor/staffer may not make a great President of the SBC.

The question is, do they personally possess the "equipment" necessary to represent millions of people to the global community.

On the current situation, there are some fine men running who I certainly think possess the equipment necessary. It is no secret I support 100% Frank Cox.

Dr. Cox is a Christian gentleman, a longtime Pastor of one church since seminary--indicative of impeccable integrity--evangelistic, a CP champion, a supporter of the CR and has the goods to pull factions together.

Everything I just noted is indicative of Johnny Hunt, whose greatest contribution could well be his sheer winsomeness in relationships with other people. Southern Baptists would never be ashamed of either of these godly men. But both cannot be President--at least at the same time.

Thus, for my present pocketbook, I believe Frank Cox is the man that can represent Southern Baptists for the next two years. After that, I'm all Johnny Hunt.

Grace, John. With that, I am...

Peter

peter lumpkins

Chris,

What's "truth" for you is not "truth" for me. This is standard, subjective doublespeak of a cultural shift indicative of the deconstruction of objective absolutes.

Inerrancy is a much stricter term for our time, far more difficult to employ as a weasel word.

Grace. With that, I am...

Peter

Byron

I agree with Peter concerning "inerrant" versus "truth". If the word "truth" were able to get the job done, we would not be saying "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" in our courts. As I understand it, each piece of that phrase means something legally, and is not superfluous. In order to convey the same meaning concerning Scripture, we must adopt a similar phrase. "Inerrant" is a much simpler solution!

Chris

Here is a few quotes from Leonard Verduin's, The Reformers and their Stepchildren;
"Although the Reformers at first gave promise of seeking out the old paths again, th Reformation in its finla thrust not only failed to expel the deformation known as "christening" but gave the ritual a new lease on life"

further he writes:

"With the Reformers thereis indeed an imbalance bewteen the forensic and the moral, between salvation as pardon and salvation as renewal."

Peter, I agree. The question you alude to is right, Did our forfathers die in vain, or were they theologically right? If we don't settle this then our future leaders might wade into the pool of baptismal regeneration, infant or otherwise.
Chris

Chris

typos mine- not in the original. I need new fingers and glasses.

Chris Johnson

Brother Peter and Byron,

“Truth” has got the job done. At least I think so. Maybe I am too simple….

Psalm 40:11 "You, O LORD, will not withhold Your compassion from me; Your lovingkindness and Your truth will continually preserve me."

I’m not going to come out with a new translation of Psalm 40:11 that replaces “truth” with “inerrant”, because I may think that inerrant conveys a better understood meaning than truth,… even though someone will probably try to translate it in that way and print up a new bible translation. (BUEV, …Better Understood English Version)

The word “inerrant” is no more or less subjective than “truth”. Truth is better defined when linked to an object (Christ), not another descriptor.

Seriously, … I am asking what makes “inerrant” so special, when there are so many ways to make the same argument. Does “inerrant” have more meaning than “truth”? Absolutely Not! I would contend that if we preach and teach the Christ of the gospel, the need for explaining truth by way of inerrant will fade as well,… inerrant will be replaced by Christ as truth is revealed. There is no improvement on that…

Psalm 111:6-10 "He has made known to His people the power of His works, In giving them the heritage of the nations. (7) The works of His hands are truth and justice; All His precepts are sure. (8) They are upheld forever and ever; They are performed in truth and uprightness. (9) He has sent redemption to His people; He has ordained His covenant forever; Holy and awesome is His name. (10) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments; His praise endures forever."

I am not belittling “inerrant”….but come on, it doesn’t hold a light to “truth”. And that doesn’t mean I should stop using “inerrant” as a descriptor either. Its just another one of the words….

Blessings,
Chris

Byron

Here's the way I see it. The Bible has truth, yes. But Scripture also contains lies and falsehood (from men, as God is unable to lie). Just witness lies such as Satan's in the Garden of Eden, or Shimei's cursing of David, or Nebuchadnezzar's prideful statements. These are statements of falsehood which are truthfully reported. They are not the truth, but the record of them is inerrant due to the inspiration of the Scriptures. And yes, I agree with you when you say, "Truth is better defined when linked to an object (Christ), not another descriptor." Christ is the way, truth, and the life. But that's a different statement than what the word "inerrant" to me is addressing: the Scriptural record.

peter lumpkins

Chris,

Please. You're being a bit absurd. "Inerrant" or "Inerrancy" is no more a "substitute" for Biblical words in passages like Psalm 40 than "Trinity" would be in MT. 28:20.
We're speaking of "concepts" here.

Nor do I think you can make the case that "inerrant" is just as much a weasel word as is truth, given our cultural deconstruction of the term "truth". If so, go for it.

With that, I am...

Peter

Byron

Peter, you said exactly what I was thinking better than I could have. Thanks!

cb scott

Chris,

If I may invade this good discussion I would like to share something from "back in the day."

You are right that the word "truth" does the job.

But, we were and are in a time when the word "truth" was used to make fools out of grassroots Baptists by unscrupulous liberals within our ranks.

They would tell people they believed the Bible was true; meaning the Bible contained the "truth" revealed by God. That did not mean the whole Bible is true.

Therefore, it became necessary to refer to the Bible as the "inerrant word of God" back in the day; meaning the "whole" Bible is the revealed Word of the living God and it is perfect in all matters from the first verse in Genesis through the last word in The Revelation.

It is sad that had to be the case, but, my brother that really was the case back in the days of the CR wars.

We knew Darth Vader was real long before Luke Skywalker ever crossed light sabers with him. :-)

cb

Chris

C.B.
Do ya think that ugly snake has re-capped the decapitated head? That the younger, of which I'm one, have subtly allowed that severed head a place in the picnic? Is this not the point of Peter's reporting, to show that those fangs are still dangerous?

Great reminder of what the CR is about.
Chris Gilliam

baptistidentity

peter,
you made the list!

I M

Chris Johnson

Brothers,

It just appears to me,…that if we teach what the “truth” is as revealed in scripture with the same vigor that we try to defend these “inerrant” type definitions, then we’ll be ok.


Thanks for the post...it was a good one.

Blessings,
Chris

baptistidentity

peter and chris

“And thy law is the truth.” As God is love, so his law is the truth, the very essence of truth, truth applied to ethics, truth in action, truth upon the judgment-seat. We hear great disputes about, “What is truth?” The holy Scriptures are the only answer to that question. Note, that they are not only true, but the truth itself. We may not say of them that they contain the truth, but that they are the truth: “thy law is the truth.” There is nothing false about the law or preceptory part of Scripture. Those who are obedient thereto shall find that they are walking in a way consistent with fact, while those who act contrary thereto are walking in a vain show.

I Mitchell

Byron

baptistidentity:

You said, "The holy Scriptures are the only answer to that question. Note, that they are not only true, but the truth itself. We may not say of them that they contain the truth, but that they are the truth: 'thy law is the truth.'"

I just cannot fully agree with this. You must make a distinction between what is true and what is false in the Scriptures. All of it is truthfully and accurately recorded we believe by faith in divine inspiration of the Scriptures. I invite you to read the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy (easily found via Google search if you are interested).

John 17:17 (ESV) "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth."

Christ Himself said this. But everything is not truth. Genesis 3:4 (ESV) says, "But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die." To call Satan's lie the truth simply because it is part of our sacred Scripture is to speak nonsense. I hope I am misunderstanding you, and that you are not actually saying that everything in Scripture is true. It is not, and cannot be.

Byron

Article III of the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy states, "We affirm that the written Word in its entirety is revelation given by God. We deny that the Bible is merely a witness to revelation, or only becomes revelation in encounter, or depends on the responses of men for its validity."

In Section III, titled "EXPOSITION", under "C. Infallibility, Inerrancy, Interpretation" it states, "...The truthfulness of Scripture is not negated by the appearance in it of irregularities of grammar or spelling, phenomenal descriptions of nature, reports of false statements (for example, the lies of Satan), or seeming discrepancies between one passage and another..."

This is an excellent theological document in my opinion (as an unqualified, ordinary believer).

baptistidentity

Byron
A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” (Luke 9:35, NIV)
Truth matches the teaching of Jesus Christ—the one who is truth. As God’s Son, Jesus has God’s power and authority; thus his words should be our final authority. If a person’s teaching is true, it will agree with Jesus’ teachings. Test everything you hear against Jesus’ words, and you will not be led astray. Don’t be hasty to seek advice and guidance from merely human sources and thereby neglect Christ’s message.

I M

Chris

Byron,

Seems I.M. can't reason with what you pointed out Byron, but rather presents self as an expert and you as a child. I think their advise given; "Don’t be hasty to seek advice and guidance from merely human sources and thereby neglect Christ’s message." applies to their words too.

Chris

peter lumpkins

IM

I am uncertain your series of points here. For my part thus far, they carry little punch. Just because one quotes a bible verse and then makes a "point" means very little to me. I only day before yesterday sent two JWs packing for doing the very same thing.

Have a great weekend. With that, I am...

Peter

peter lumpkins

IM

I am uncertain your series of points here. For my part thus far, they carry little punch. Just because one quotes a bible verse and then makes a "point" means very little to me. I only day before yesterday sent two JWs packing for doing the very same thing.

Have a great weekend. With that, I am...

Peter

Debbie Kaufman

Peter: One question I have is your title. Are not Evangelicals and Baptists one in the same? Or can they not be one in the same?

peter lumpkins

Debbie,

I do not see how they can be. "Evangelicals" as we employ the term is just over a half-century old.

With that, I am...

Peter

volfan007

Debbie,

I am not Peter, and he is definitely smarter than me; but, a Baptist is evangelical no doubt. But, not all evangelicals are Baptist. Thus, they are not one and the same. There are many evangelicals who are not Baptists.

David

Strider

A couple of things to toss into this stew.
One, I understand well the concept behind the use of the word inerrancy but for me this word has lost its zing. It has never brought us closer to God, it has never made us more obedient. Many of us profess the 'truthfulness' of the Word but we do not obey it. I always liked the word 'infalable'. I don't understand how that word became a copout word meaning that the Bible was pretty good but not perfect. It should have the meaning that when you obey the Word it will not fail you. I like it because it is an action word- unlike inerrancy which we can all shout our amens to and then go about life with no faith, no hope, and no love.

I would also like to add- per the intent of the post- that what I see here is that when we throw stones at those who sign these kinds of statements there is a lot of fear. Slogans like 'betrayed our baptist roots' and the like seem to be shouted loudly- and I might add quite angrily- as if we had so much to lose. Are we that weak? Will we be so easily swept away? Will God's Kingdom fall apart- or worse go merrily on without us? I for one am tired of being so insecure. If our understanding of God is so good- our doctrine so biblical- then we will stand on the rock in the storm without fear. Let Land sign what he will- I will not start baptizing babies because of it. Fear is a weapon of the enemy. Can we make no arguments about the prudence of signing documents without it? If we can not then should we keep making arguments and judging our brothers so harshly?

The comments to this entry are closed.