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2008.02.03

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Strider

I have been following the discussion here but have not entered it yet. I have been a total abstainer since High School when God asked me not to drink but I have always held that moderation was a valid position. I am very much in favor of the argument in this post that just because people have always believed it does not make it so. However, if we presume that the Bible has always taught that wine itself was 'evil'(my word) then I think it important to show where the change in history came. I mean that Jews today drink wine- lots of it and believe that wine (alcoholic) was always used. It was always believed by the church as far back as anyone I have read that Jesus used wine (not grape juice) at the last supper. When did the early church stop using grape juice and started using wine? This would be important to prove the reformer's argument.

peter lumpkins

Strider,

Thanks for entering in. Your perspective is ever welcome. First, if I gave the impression through what I've written thus far that wine itself is 'evil' I regret such. 'Wine', that is, the fruit of the vine in its purist form, is a delightful good God gives us to enjoy.

Rather the added chemicals through fermentation--and now in the modern world, distillation--which can only be described as toxins, are precisely what must be viewed as 'evil'. The moral reasoning is God would no more approve of one partaking of degenerated wine as He would molded bread or spoiled milk.

As for when it 'changed in history', I don't know how to respond. There have been voices of abstention all along--in Jewish history as well as Christian--but granted they were the minority view. That early believers took that Jesus only commended fresh wine (nontoxic) is easily documented from extra-biblical sources.

Also, the Biblical rootedness of The Supper in Passover itself argues for nontoxic wine in The Supper. There was to be nothing leavened as a part of Passover. Fermented wine would surely have been considered a leavened product. What do you think?

As for the Jewish people partaking today and yesteryear, I do not see at all how "practice of" argues for revealed truth any more in Judaism than our sorry ethics within Christianity.

Grace, Strider. With that, i am...

Peter

David Rogers

Peter,

I have just gotten caught up reading all your posts so far on this topic. Please do not misinterpret me here as an apologist for the moderationist view. I am not. I am, however, striving to be as objective as I can in evaluating the biblical evidence.

I do believe the argument you make about different kinds of wine, even possibly different uses of the words "yayin" and "oinos" has merit.

What I have not seen thus far (unless I missed it), and is still causing me a bit of trouble, is the apparently approving use of the term "shekar" in Deuteronomy 14:26(translated "strong drink" in the KJV, and " other fermented drink" in the NIV). Do you have any information that might help to explain this?

peter lumpkins

David,

I do. And can offer several 'explanations' from the late Professor Robert Teachout's exhaustive study of Wine in the OT (his unpublished doctoral dissertation at Dallas Theological Seminary), F.D. Lees, G.W. Samson, Samuele Bacchiocchi among others. However, that's getting the proverbial cart ahead of the horse.

Why would one desire to judge all other texts of Scripture--texts that seem to offer a compelling, consistent view--by one verse that appears to teach something else? I do not do so with eternal security; that is, while I do not dismiss Hebrews 6, for example, in my understanding of eternal redemption, neither do I see it as necessarily overturning my eternal redeemed position in Christ.

All said, there will be plenty of time to look at 'problem texts'. The real question now is whether or not the Bible presents a comprehensive, consistent pattern in its view of wine as both toxic and nontoxic, the former God commending, the latter God condemning. The answer seems more and more to be "yes" to me.

With that, I am...

Peter

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