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2007.12.22

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Robin Foster

Peter

Thanks for bringing some sense to some nonsense that I have read.

God bless and Merry Christmas.

Bro. Robin

Scott Gordon

Ditto to what Robin said...

Oh, and what Peter said, too!

By Grace Alone

peter

Robin & Scott,

Thanks. May both of you and yours experience a grace=filled Christmas. With that, I am...

Peter

volfan007

i agree with you, robin, and scott. also, it's getting crazier and more bizarre all the time.

david

selahV

Peter: and the drip, drip, drip of contention continues against Baptist distinctives and anyone who'd dare stand for the whole truth and nothing but the truth. sigh~ ~ selahV

Byroniac

SelahV and others:

I must respectfully disagree with you all here. I can't speak for Wade Burleson or anyone else besides myself, but some of us just honestly believe that Baptists aren't as Biblical as they could be, and simply wish that they were more so. And the "contention" you mention really should be respectful disagreement as brothers and sisters in Christ, as in the fourth definition given for contention at dictionary.com, "a point contended for or affirmed in controversy." Both (multiple?) sides in this present conflict have not acted perfectly, and I believe there has been genuine repentance in many cases where wrong has been done. For myself, I hope that my conscience will remain bound to the Scriptures. And very truthfully, my days as a baptist, at least concerning the SBC, are likely numbered. Officially, I'm SBC, but privately, I claim no more than being Baptistic, which I hope to affirm for my whole life.

Debbie Kaufman

Well said Byron, there isn't a line that you have written that I do not fully agree with.

peter

Byron,

I am not sure about that with which you "must respectfully disagree with you all here."

The post I logged seemed clearly to show Wade's 'call for a little more consistency' from Baptist bloggers to be prematurely issued. The TBN panel was totally unlike the Conference he referenced as proof of inconsistency.

I am open to correction but it needs pointing out how I was inaccurate in my post.

Have a great afternoon in the Lord. With that, I am...

Peter

Byroniac

Peter:

I'm sorry. I probably misspoke. I didn't mean to imply that your post is inaccurate, because I don't know enough about the particular situation that you are blogging about. I meant to speak in terms of Baptist distinctives, specifically in the SBC denomination of which I'm still a part.

Debbie Kaufman

Peter: I could answer you but I think you already know the inaccuracies. I'll let you think about it over the holidays. I still affirm Byron's post and I am basing it on what you have written. Just to be clear personally.

peter

To all,

Thanks for the good discussion. And, especially thanks to Debbie. I do need to think of much over the next few days of this season. Peace to all. With that, I am...

Peter

Steve Camp

I want to thank you for mentioning me in your article above. However, I was not at those meetings nor have I ever been associated with this discussion.

I believe you meant to write Scott Camp and not Steve Camp. An honest mistake.

Here is a link that should qualify my participation or lack thereof.

His Unworthy Servant in His Unfailing Love,
STEVE Camp :-)
2 Cor. 4:5-7

SBC reader

Peter,

I appreciate you following up on this. I know very little about Dwight McKissic. When I watched this clip, I assumed Pastor McKissic was in agreement with the rest of the others. As I have read on other blogs, he says he made it clear where he stood. I agree, I thought he stood with the rest of those on stage. That is what I, someone who knows very little about him saw. That is what millions of others who knew very little about him saw. Yet, Wade and Debbie continually say that's not what I saw. I'm very thankful for the bloggers who wrote about this, and what they saw also.

I also appreciate you calling Wade on what he writes. He has a way of spinning the truth and making it sound good. He appeals to the flesh a great deal of the time, and I, for one, am ever grateful that you take the time to set it straight.

It's also refreshing to see someone like Byron apologize and admit he doesn't know enough about the situation you were talking about. Very refreshing.

Debbie. What's new. Even though Byron graciously apologized for his own words, since she agreed with him, she has to make it clear she still affirms his words. Who cares?

I may be the only one, but I surely grow weary of Debbie correcting all of you other Pastors. For a woman who runs around constantly defending her own Pastor, she's so disrespectful to the other Pastors who blog. I fully believe you all have members of your churches who love and respect you enough to defend you also, but would not run around doing it constantly. I seriously doubt you would encourage it either.

God bless you, Peter. Please don't be discouraged by those who only encourage those who agree with them, and seek to discourage anyone who doesn't agree with them. There are many of us out here who need your fair and balanced approach to what is going on.

Luke

Peter,
I would like to add my agreement to what SBC Reader posted. When I watched the clip, and I've thought about it much over the last number of days, I also came away with the conclusion that Dwight agreed with those on stage. We must be careful about appearances must we not?

Thank you for putting yourself out in the open Peter. While I'm not willing to stand in front of you yet, :), I am willing to stand behind you.

Chris

Peter,
Merry Christmas. Thanks again for bring clarity and discernment to the table. Good food for the one who's palate is prepared.

SbcReader, Good to see you again and your careful and consistent analysis as to what the average person sees. People who don’t know Dwight (such as you and I) would conclude he endorsed the theme of the TBN panel, particularly since he did not contradict on the public broadcast. I think it was Adrian Rogers who once said “repentance needs to be as broad as the offence”. Thus, McKissic needs to be invited back to TBN if this is going to gain credible believability to me, and many others. Your words on the spin machine and agree or be attacked are fruitful and I hope Peter is encouraged.

Peter, I agree that Wade is premature here and that this is a different issue altogether. I would like to see like your thoughts in the form of a future post as to what might be the dangers of appearing on conferences with others who hold different theologies when theology is not the main topic. (Synergize is an example, Catalyst, Promise Keepers, et al) While I, like you do not think this is the point Wade is trying to make (TBN was about Doctrine), I think the mandate for blameless is important and that a clear line ought to be established for the future generations as to what the difference is between broader cooperation and potential indoctrination. Would really love to see your reasoned mind here.

Chris

Debbie Kaufman

sbcreader: You don't even want to know what I am sick of. I wonder why you have to resort to constant ad hominem attacks to get your point across. As I said, stick with the facts and not one word will be said by me. Don't and I usually say something.Christianity is truth. For example, fleshly? That is so far from the truth that I about fell out of my chair on that one. Byron didn't apologize for his words, he simply said he was not speaking of anything other than Baptist Distinctives. His words express exactly my view. Rumors are a dime a dozen sbcreader and you seem intent on spreading it regardless. I'll call you on it every time. I have a feeling Dwight could have come out and interrupted the whole proceeding going further than what he clearly already said and you would still find something to complain about. If you are not SBC and just a reader, then you are sowing discord just to be sowing discord. That in and of itself is wrong. I wrote practically word for word what Dwight said on Tim Guthrie's blog if you missed it watching the video(if you even watched the video in it's entirety). There was no mistaking what he said. He was not agreeing, that too was clear.

Chris: You said sbc reader has well thought out analysis, it doesn't take a lot of thought to flame and to give ad hominem attacks which is all sbc reader's comment has.

Debbie Kaufman

Thanks for the heads up on the Conference where supposedly Baptist Pastors are cooperating with Charismatics, not to mention being on the same platform with women who serve as Senior Pastors. I am confused, however, why you think Ed Young, James Merritt and Ken Whitten's cooperating with Charismatics and women senior pastors is analogous to Dwight McKissic, Dwain Miller and Steve Camp's appearance on TBN. I am quite sure that either of these men will preach the truth as he sees it, albeit the conference may dictate the theme.

Let's compare. Dwight was on TBN, on the same stage as Charismatics/Pentecostals. He spoke the truth of what he sees scripture saying concerning PPL. He said nothing different than what he has said on his blog or when speaking personally. To verify that one can go to his blog and do a search or email him. Watch the video again and see where he also said the opposite of the other gentleman concerning spirituality and PPL. It is no different than these men being on the same stage above. That is the connection. The question is could Dwight be accepted as a Southern Baptist in office or simply a Southern Baptist period. If not, that is where I have the problem. Not do you agree with Dwight, but could he still be considered Southern Baptist?

peter lumpkins

Steve,

I corrected the post. Again, I am deeply sorry for incorrectly naming you rather than Scott Camp. I'll attempt to retrace my steps and see if I've blundered other places as well.

The link was perfect. Thanks for making a contribution to this thread.

Grace. With that, I am...

Peter

peter

SBC Reader

Your encouragement is humbling. I very much appreciate one's view who's looking from a distance. And as Chris has affirmed, I do not think your take on McKissic is at all uncommon; that is, coming from one who does not know him or his ministry. Neither blog posts nor pulpit proclamations matter one iota to whether he correctly presented his views to the TBN audience.

Chris,

Again, I thank you for the encouragement. I will think more deeply about the matter you have laid bare. Initially, I'm uncertain there would be a hard and fast rule that dictates apriori with whom one would allow his/her name to appear on a platform. A great question to pursue during the lull into the New Year :^)

Grace and a Awe-filled Christmas to both you and SBC Reader.

With that, I am...

Peter

peter

Debbie

And I thought you had retired until after Christmas!

I am content, Debbie, for readers to compare what I have suggested about the differences between the Conference & the TBN spectacle and whether Wade was right on in his call for 'a little more consistency' from Blogging Baptists. If you think they are the same and thus Wade's point is well taken, I suggest you continue to believe such.

Now as for whether D. McKissic made plain his views, distancing himself from the nuttiness of Miller, Camp and Hogue--not to mention whether he was silently acquiescing in running down Dr. Patterson--I am also content to encourage the interested to view the video and make up their own mind.

As for me, the video is definitive and substantiates my view.

Till after Christmas, peace and faith to you. With that, I am...

Peter

Byroniac

Debbie is correct in that I wasn't apologizing for my words, I was just trying to clarify my intended focus of the original. I see another error of mine too, in that I went on a soapbox of mine outside of the topic of the post, and shouldn't have.

Blessings in Christ to all who are His!

SBC reader

Byron,

I apologize to you. I did mean it was refreshing to see you apologize. Not for your words, just apologize for "probably mis-speaking". I understood that you weren't apologizing for your words. I shouldn't have used the word "words". I do appreciate your humble spirit.

Luke,

Thank you.

Chris,

Thank you too. And, I think the idea of Pastor McKissic returning to TBN is a good idea. That would clear everything up I believe.

Debbie,

Thank you for the correction on Byron's apology. I still don't know why you felt you needed to restate you still agreed with him.

I did watch the whole video Debbie. As incredulous as it is, not all of us saw what you saw. If you really think we are brain dead or something, please, show us some compassion.

I believe you saw what you saw, Debbie. You seem to know Pastor McKissic, and, as I said earlier, I do not. Not knowing much about him, I can only share what I saw, and others apparently came away with the same view.

Even if I knew him as you seem to know him, I think I would still have to say he came across as being in agreement with all that was said on that stage whether he meant to or not.

I also have read what you wrote "word for word" and I have also read what others wrote "word for word", and, as I have said before, I watched the entire video.

The reason I read more than one view of anything is so I can have a balanced view. If I only read Wade, I would not have a balanced view of what's going on in the SBC. That is why I read others.

Peter is the most consistent I have found in being fair and balanced. I see you consistently treat him and other Pastors as if they are children you need to correct. You are not even close to being on the same level as the Pastors you feel the need to correct. Yes, you are equal in God's eyes, but you are not on their level. Peter (and others) are leaps and bounds ahead of you (and myself) in being mature Christians (not to mention in knowledge). Peter has shown you kindness and patience beyond what you deserve, and when he finally does gently correct you, you accuse him of talking down to you, when he has endured you talking down to him (and others) with much patience.

That is what I see, Debbie, whether you like it or agree. I am a layperson just like you. Yes, I am a Southern Baptist. I have a great deal of respect for my own Pastor, and I pray for him daily. I would also defend him, to a certain degree, if someone said something untrue about him, but I know he's not above being wrong. He's not God.

As far as my "fleshly" remark, I speak for myself. When I read Wade he can get me all fired up to rebel against any and all authority, and to be RIGHT. I have to pray for the Holy Spirit to discern every word he writes because I can get caught up in it all too easily. When I read Peter (and some others) they help me see why I am often uncomfortable with what Wade writes even though I can get caught up in it.

I can be very fleshly, Debbie. I admit that. I struggle with how much to say, what to say, and reacting in ways that don't bring glory to the Lord I love and truly want to bring glory to.

Peter,

Thank you, again, for your wise words in the blogworld, and for treating everyone who comes here as equally important to you. There are many more of us reading from a distance. I send people to your blog all the time. They may not ever comment, for various reasons (some are probably more obvious than others), but they read and appreciate you.

God bless you (and all that are reading), and may everyone have a very Merry Christmas.

Debbie Kaufman

You are not even close to being on the same level as the Pastors you feel the need to correct. Yes, you are equal in God's eyes, but you are not on their level. Peter (and others) are leaps and bounds ahead of you (and myself) in being mature Christians (not to mention in knowledge)

We are not the Roman Catholic Church sbcreader.Ministers are not on a higher level. The Bible never teaches this, in fact the opposite is taught. I do not have the room for scriptures, but would encourage you to be a Berean and study for yourself this very subject. I respect ministers, missionaries, but knew they were not at a higher level than myself. A truly godly minister would tell you this. In fact read Wade's post on "The Bell", it tells who you truly are in Christ. I agree with it 100%. It's why I believe the Bible teaches priesthood of the believer. You also do not know me well enough to judge my spiritual growth. I find so many things in your post I could address but realize it would be futile. This is also why I believe if one signs their name they take responsibility for their words. Someday maybe you will do this.

Chris

Debbie,

I don't intend to hijack Peter's post to address this but I pray Peter will entertain me this once. Sbcreader is speaking of honor and due respect, to which the scripture speaks volumes on and to which sbc reader takes issue with your lack thereof. You still come out and belittle sbcreader. If your idea of preisthood of believer trumps biblical authority, I guess we can hack out a lot of scripture concerning the need for authority period. Does honor and respect mean anything to you? No need to answer here, just think it over please.

Debbie Kaufman

I honor and respect those who deem honor and respect. To say that someone knows more scripture than another be it minister or otherwise is not what the scriptures teach at all. In fact the Bereans waded through scripture to see if what Paul said was true. The minister is a servant, not someone whose league I nor any other Christian are not in. I believe my post pretty well said it as I meant it to be said. Also to attribute to me as saying that priesthood of the believer trumps scripture is bogus. Chris, priesthood of the believer is scripture. If sbcreader believes all ministers deserve respect, then why does he/she just appeal that respect to those he/she agrees with? Consistency would seem to be in order if that were the case. It is not.

Debbie Kaufman

Pentecostals believe what sbcreader has just written. He/she seems to think I can not question nor correct. That is wrong Biblically and otherwise. Remember Benny Hinn's famous out of context use of the verse not to go against people such as himself? I like Peter, I respect Peter but Peter and I have been conversing for a while now. I will however question and if need be correct Peter on things that I believe he is mistaken on. Believe it or not on subjects other than this, Peter and I agree on more than we disagree. Plus, Peter has a great singing voice. :)

SBC reader

Chris,

Thank you for clarifying for me. You understood exactly what I was saying.

Debbie,

I know we are not the Roman Catholic Church. I do read and study my bible. How we treat others (whether we agree with them or not), whether in person or online, says a lot about how spiritually mature we are. I don't have to know someone personally to be able to discern that.

As for who I am, it doesn't matter. Chris identifies himself, yet you treat him the same way you treat me because he isn't agreeing with everything you say. He is kindly trying to get you to think about what is being said. It's not that people aren't going to disagree about some things, we are. And, I agree we should be able to discuss things with our Pastors and other Pastors. It seems that you are never wrong though, Debbie. There's no room for "discussion" with one who's never wrong, and whose goal seems to be to correct (not discuss) all who don't agree with them or their Pastor.

I know Peter, and other SBC bloggers I read (most are Pastors) don't need defending. Sometimes my flesh just gets the best of me, and when you told Peter:

"Peter: I could answer you but I think you already know the inaccuracies. I'll let you think about it over the holidays."

That just comes across like you are talking to a disobedient child. I would guess you're hoping after the holidays Peter will come back and say: you were right mommy, and I was wrong.

You have publicly stated you don't always agree with one of your own Pastors, but I sure haven't seen you correcting him in any way. Maybe I have missed it, if so, forgive me and please send a link to that conversation. I would love to read it.

I do appreciate all the SBC bloggers. I have learned A LOT from reading the blogs.

Thank you, Peter, you are an ever patient blog host.

volfan007

sbc reader,

good words. i think you've hit the nail on the head.

david

peter lumpkins

SBC Reader

You are most welcome. I think with David you have accurately summarized many of the exchanges in which our sister Debbie participates.

Grace to you. With that, I am...

Peter

Trish

SBC Reader - you have articulated your thoughts well and in a positive manner. I too have learned a great deal from reading the many SBC Bloggers, including Wade's, though it is hard to read his blog. I enjoy Peter and SBCToday, and learn more positive and encouraging information from the topics and discussions on these blogs than what I learn on Wade's or some others.

Debbie, I am sure that you mean well when you engage on the blogs. And you communicate well at times, I've seen it on my blog and on other blogs. I have noticed that at these times you are engaging with a topic and not an individual. There is a difference in your tone, your word choice, when you take exception to something a person said. Then your word choice is less than ideal. You come across in a negative, condescending, and even arrogant manner, much like SBCReader has said. I share this, knowing you won't like it, but hoping you will see the truth in it and try to communicate differently in the future.

I remember well the time a supervisor had a discussion with me and let me know how my manner of communicating was being received by my coworkers. She knew me as a person and felt that the message being delivered was not necessarily the message I wanted to send and so she took me aside and explained to me how I was being received. It hurt, because she was right, I did not intend to be communicating to my coworkers that I was superior to them or better than them, yet that was the message they were getting. I learned to choose my words more carefully, to say things in a way that was instructive without being demeaning, remembering that they were people too, just with different skills and abilities, but still able to learn and worthy of respect. I pray I have done the same here, choosing my words carefully so as to be instructive and not condescending.

Thank you Peter for indulging us as we exhort a fellow Christian in love and humility, praying that the words will be received with the care and concern that are behind them. I am confident that I speak for SBCReader when I say that we are exhorting Debbie with care and concern in love and humility.

Blessings,
Trish

Debbie Kaufman

I stand by everything I have written. I also have a feeling if I agreed with you not one word would be said. Read the comments and the post Peter has written. My words are tame and I feel very well reasoned. I should not even be conversing with an anonymous writer. That may be my only mistake. If I had it to write over, I would not have changed a word.

peter lumpkins

Trish,

I trust your Christmas Day to have been Grace-filled.

Know I appreciate the words, the tone and the obvious humility which guided your thoughts. The Lord always bless. With that, I am...

Peter

peter

Debbie,

I am tempted to suggest you look at your last post toward our Trish for a splendid sample of her and SBC Reader's precise point. Should I or Shouldn't I? Should I or Shouldn't I? Should I or Shouldn't I? Should I or Shouldn't I? O.K. I should.

You write 'Read the comments and the post Peter has written' The unstated assumption is, Debbie, that Trish has neither read the post I wrote, nor the comment thread, about which she still has taken the time to comment about it (or the comment thread) anyway. It is that perpetual indulgence which seems to steadily drip from your posts in subtly--and probably unconsciously--questioning another person's ability to contribute valuably to a conversation that I think some here have in mind.

Trusting you also, my sister Debbie, had a Grace-filled Christmas Day. With that, I am...

Peter

Steve

:) I shouldn't. :)

hope you all had a great Christmas and recovery day (we call it "boxing day"... don't know why, maybe its a warrior response to bad presents or bad food!)
Steve

Debbie Kaufman

Do you know what would be refreshing Peter? If you, Trish, sbcreader would actually deal with the issues on your comments instead of trying(cough) to discipline me where no discipline need occur. I am perfectly comfortable with what I have written and am fine in my relationship with God. That seems to always be your and others reaction instead of dealing with the actual issues. It's called a discussion. And guess what people will agree and disagree in this discussion. That will show that you are doing more than simply trying to start rumors.

peter

Debbie,

Yes, Debbie. That's what SBCTomorrow is, a rumor mill, never a place where the factual is actually engaged. How we could have thought we'd ever fool you will haunt me from now on.

Nor should I or others have even entertained the idea that 'discipline' was a practice we possessed the moral authority to accomplish. Shame on us!

With that, I am...

Peter

Steve

We are sorry you had such a lousey Christmas and feel so bad Debbie. Remember you are in the Lord's hands.
Steve

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