"Well, the nerve of them! How dare they delete my well-thought-out comment! Who do they think they are, anyway? Censorship, censorship, censorship!"
For those of you who know me, I hope you clearly read through the apparent emotionalism of the above statement. I am really not upset even though they really did delete my comment. And, understand: they have every right to do so if they choose.
Nor may I legitimately charge "Censorship", as in the facetious remark above. That's one of the more positive advantages of blogdom. One may be both deleted and banned but one cannot be censored--at least, not the way the net presently works. I'll just take my pamphlets and work another street.
It seems buzz is not going to cease anytime soon pertaining to gender leadership in Baptist circles. Emily Hunter McGowin penned two posts for SBCOutpost recently. The first entitled, "Who Should Have Authority Over a Man?", is a short but clear summary of some of the interpretative issues as we interpret 1Timothy 2.12. Predictably following the post, lively discussion ensued which, as I see it, was largely beneficial.
Her more recent post--'Speaking of "Straightforward" Biblical Interpretation, while not properly a subject of gender issues, led directly to such since she questioned the hermeutical approach of her complementarian dissenters in the first post. Once again, sparks flew. The subsequent comment thread is worth your time.
Before I post my horribly, off-subject comment which Paul Littleton chose to delete, allow me to say that I possess the utmost respect for Emily Hunter McGowin. I read her posts often and link her to SBCTomorrow.
Furthermore, I've gained an incredible amount of satisfaction in dialogs with Emily and, without least reservation, count her a sister in Christ. She possesses a keen mind, an irenic, Christlike spirit and remains a scholarly, capable spokesperson for egalitarianism. She also stands completely at odds with mainstream Southern Baptists on this issue; adding that, the same mainstream, as a complementarian, I paddle my own little boat.
That said, this is obviously not personally against Ms. Hunter McGowin (perhaps soon to be "Dr" Hunter McGowin, as I hope with her). Rather it is about both Biblical truth and precisely how Southern Baptists understand the gender issues. In the future, I hope to post some more thorough thoughts on this discussion.
The comment posted by "Traveller" which sparked my contribution SBCOutpost subsequently yanked is pasted below, along with Emily's warm agreement. Following that , is my totally "off-subject" deficient comment.
77. traveller Says:
August 9th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
It is always interesting to me to observe how there is an assumption that an egalitarian position by definition indicates the person adopting that position must have been influenced by the secular culture. In being so influenced that person must then interpret scripture through the lens of that secular belief system. However, I believe a case just as strong can be made that those who adopt a complementarian position have been influenced by secular culture that predates the 1960’s. If so, then perhaps the ones who are influenced by secular culture in their interpretation of scripture are not the egalitarians but the complementarians.
One point that highlights this is the complementarian position that seems to posit that in some way pastors are more important or higher in the pyramid than prophecy so women can prophesy but not preach or be a pastor. However, there does not seem to be any real hierarchy in scripture. This would seem to be more directly the result of 1700 years of an institutional expression of church that glorifies the pastor. (Even more humorous to me is the idea of “senior pastor”….find that one in scripture. It is further evidence of cultural influence since that is a modern business concept, not a scriptural one.)
Another is the continual attempt to discount Priscilla’s role as a teacher because it was in the home, not in the local church building. The problem with this, again, is our cultural influence of thinking of the church as being at a location separate and distinct from the rest of the world. During most of the first three centuries of the church’s existence the gathering of the ecclesia was in homes. Where else could they gather during the time of persecution? There was no “public” preaching or proclamation. Again, we are heavily influenced by our understanding of church in its 20th/21st century institutional form, which did not really begin to exist until the beginning of the fourth century as a result of Constantine’s “conversion” or “co-option” of the church, depending on one’s view of what transpired. It is at least as strong a case that the Roman Empire took over the church as it is the church conqueored Europe.
If complementarians and egalitarians are going to work together in ministry it will be necessary to actually love one another through the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. This means that we will become comfortable with the fact we can minister together without our ministering together being taken as an endorsement of the other person’s view. At the same time we can remain in dialogue with one another to grow in our understanding of each other’s thinking and let the iron sharpen iron with love, kindness and gentleness. If we did this we would epitomize Jesus words that the world would know we are his followers by our love for one another. Isn’t this one of the most powerful witnesses we could show to the world….we disagree but our relationship with one another energized and formed through our relationship with the Father creates extraordinary binding together in service to Father and others.
My personal view is that the current polarization of this and other issues within the SBC reflects not the community of God’s family but the strife of the secular world around us.
80. Emily Hunter McGowin Says:
August 9th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Traveller,
As always, you bring wisdom and depth of insight to a difficult discussion. Thank you.
Grace and peace,
Emily
The Horrible Off-Subject Comment Below. Shame on me!
Dear Emily,
I missed your conversation with such a lively bunch who dissents from your own egalitarian position. I wish I could have joined in. Of course, my view as you know squares
more contra than pro your own.
By the way, the last thread where you entertained this theme here, you were unconvinced that "egalitarian" rightly described your view, Emily. Now, however, at least from my pole position, I could not imagine how your view could be defined as anything but egalitarian. Am I presumptuous to conclude such?
The most interesting aspect of this entire conversation is what is clearly absent from any consideration whatever, unless I skipped over the comment. And, one "Traveller" actually reminded me of its absence.
Traveller wrote:
"If complementarians and egalitarians are going to "work
together" in ministry it will be necessary to actually love one another...This means that we will become comfortable with the fact we can "minister together" without our "ministering together" being taken as an "endorsement" of the other person’s view" (emphasis mine, comment #77).
Also, within the same comment, Traveller implied, at least as I read him/her, that complementarianism was perhaps the culturally loaded position that needed to disarm its munitions. You seemed to agree, Emily, for of Traveller you write: "...you
bring wisdom and depth of insight to a difficult discussion" (comment #80).
What I find strangely missing in this entire discussion are these statements:
"[The Church's] scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture. (Article VI, The Church, BFM2000K, including
a scripture reference of 1Timothy 2.9-14).
And: "A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She...has the God-given responsibility to... serve as his helper in managing the household
and nurturing the next generation" (Article XVIII, The Family, BFM2000K, emphasis mine).
My point is simply this, Emily: while the discussion on the Biblical correctness of either egalitarianism or complentarianism is fascinating as well as needed, in my view, such a question stands entirely beside the point.
The document that is hailed here as the singular, maximum statement of faith that we must use outside the Bible to gauge whether or not those who want to serve us denominationally fit our faith, is explicit in its advocacy of one particular position on gender issues as they relate to leadership. Unfortunately, for egalitarians, the BFM2000K takes a complementarian stand.
I remain totally in awe that those here who've repeatedly been the cheerleaders of the "maximal" interpretative understanding of the EC statement voted on in SA, have also been strangely silent about this, Emily. Why have they not said to you,
"Sorry, Emily. While we think egalitarianism remains a viable Biblical position, nonetheless, since the BFM2000K explicitly takes a complementarian approach, we could not advocate allowing egalitarians to serve us denominationally"?
Grace, Emily. With that, I am...
Peter
Given the above, I am unsure if SBCOutpost is interested in making the BFM2000K the "maximal" interpretative document for assessing denominational service.
With that, I am...
Peter
Geesh, Peter, why must you be so diplomatic? These are very good things to think on given the stand that some seem to take regarding the BF&M. I hadn't thought about it in quite the way you've addressed it here, but I can certainly see why the Outpost with all their readership would not want such a rational comment as yours to show up in their comment stream. selahV
Posted by: selahV | 2007.08.10 at 09:28 PM
SelahV,
Thanks for throwing in your line. Diplomatic? Me? :^)
Personally, I think there are lots of good conversational talks to have pertaining to gender leadership in the SBC. However, whether egalitarians & complementarians may "work together" is virtually moot now, since the BFM2K--which definitively embraces a complementarian view--became our "official" confession.
Grace, SelahV. With that, I am...
Peter
Posted by: peter lumpkins | 2007.08.10 at 10:36 PM
Peter
While they have the right to do what they want on their blog, I find it hard to see how they are having the open dialog they promote while removing your comment?
Posted by: Robin Foster | 2007.08.10 at 11:22 PM
Peter - your name suits you, if only you could walk on water.
Posted by: Joe Stewart | 2007.08.11 at 12:09 AM
Joe: how do we know he can't?
:) selahV
Posted by: selahV | 2007.08.11 at 08:42 AM
Robin,
To be honest, though I've not had a lot of comments deleted (though at least 3 well-known Baptist sites refused to post my comments), it was strange why Paul Littleton deleted that particular one. It seemed no more "off-subject" than others not deleted. Nor was it "attack" oriented, as I can see anyway. I think in the long run, SBCOutpost has a very steep climb to overcome an obviously tainted approach to "News."
Joe,
Walk on water? Dog, I thought everybody already done that. You mean to tell me you haven't? :^)
Grace to ya'll. With that, I am...
Peter
Posted by: peter lumpkins | 2007.08.11 at 12:09 PM
:) well said Peter... and yes, the issue of complementarianism versus egalatariansim is the watershed that reveals one's view of the scriptures. Well said.
Steve
Posted by: grosey | 2007.08.12 at 02:14 AM
Peter,
My brother, your wit and reason is impeccable in that post. If it had been me I would have published your comment just because of your sheer literary genius.
I know that we disagree about many things, but in this issue it appears that we agree. I am a complementarian. Scripture leaves us no choice but to hold such a view.
God Bless,
Jeff
Posted by: Jeffro | 2007.08.12 at 06:49 AM
You've just turned the BF&M into a creed by stating that no Southern Baptist may interpret Scripture in a way that disagrees with any of its articles. This places the BF&M above Scripture, which is heresy.
Ever since the adoption of the first edition of the BF&M in 1925, Southern Baptists have used it only as a guide, a dialogue partner. No one, not even the most fundamentalist or most thorough inerrantist or creedalist in the SBC followed every article equally. That remains true today with the 2000 revision, though SBC leaders and supporters like yourself try to pretend otherwise. For instance, tell me what major SBC leader follows the article on Peace and War even closely, never mind literally? This is article XVI in the '63 and 2000 versions and XIX in the '25 version. You can compare them side by side here: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfmcomparison.asp
If you were to take the attitude toward this article that you insist that egalitarians take to article VI (on the Church, which is Art. XII in the '25 version), which is where your quotes come from, then you would be leveling indictments against most of the SBC leadership for their militarism. And if I insisted that you read Scripture closely through the lense provided by Article XVI when deciding anything on war and peace issues, would you then reply to me that the BF&M isn't a creed and that you are free to disagree with it?
You can't have it both ways.
Posted by: Michael Westmoreland-White | 2007.08.12 at 12:43 PM
Michael,
Hello, my brother. It's been much too long since last we chatted. Perhaps that explains perfectly why you come with tires squealing, gravel flying and a donut in my front yard.
Anyway, I think you've got it backwards, Michael. I challenge you to locate anywhere I've written one, single verb that suggests I am credal in my understanding of historic confessions. To the contrary, I've attempted to focus elsewhere, especially in light of some Baptist bloggers who have actually suggested that the BF&M needs *annual* renewal. No thanks. The Separate cautionary attitude toward all confessions is a heritage toward which I feel very close.
Rather, it is the current dissenting community--led by SBCOutpost & Wade Burleson--that has taken credalism to heights beyond any in the CR ever dreamed. Their "maximal" interpretive principle they seem on chewing, making the BF&M "the" single, "sufficient" bowl in which they mix up their recipes for denominational service, is the "heresy" toward which you should aim your guns--at least in my view.
And, if you had paid a little bit more attention to the context of my conversation there, Michael, perhaps you would not have pulled the trigger here so quickly.
My main point was definitively *not* to state my view of complementarianism--of which, I am gladly a card-carrying adherent--nor state the credal authority of the BF&M. My purpose was to demonstrate the Outpost's quite blatant inconsistency in, on the one hand, stating the BF&M is the "maximal" gauge by which to judge denominational service and on the other hand, bleating about egals & comps working together denominationally, despite the said "maximal" document explicitly affirms complementarianism. As you said to me, Michael, "you can't have it both ways."
As for your analogy with the Peace & War article, I think I understand what you are saying, Michael, but I simply disagree. First, as far as I know, no SBC leader is shunning his/her duty to "seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness... do[ing] all in their power to put an end to war." Nor is there one who would deny this statement as one agreeable to them. Do you know of any SBC leader who denies this article?
Surely, you may respond that some of them may not be as actively involved in pursuing peace--say, in Iraq--as do you or a thousand other activists. But activism is not the only way to "seek peace...and put an end to war"--at least in my view. Even worse, it is my experience that many, if not most, activists--whether left or right--devolve into an extremely judgmental community.
For twenty plus years I had pro-lifers--of whom I also gladly carry a member card--storming my office, perplexed why I wouldn't march down main street or picket abortion clinics and make a real difference, if I "really" cared about the unborn. My way of promoting the prolife paradigm was not good enough for them. So, I was viewed many times at best as indifferent and at worst, a closet pro-abortionist. I offer that to say, Michael, that all do not possess the peace activist agenda that you so faithfully embrace. That does not make them warmongers, nor peace-haters.
Contrarily, the consequent comment thread on Outpost was not about differing views of the way the BF&M could be understood or how various gender leadership models be implemented. Rather it called into question an explicit affirmation of the BF&M. Do you disagree, Michael, that complementarianism is the affirmed teaching within the confession? If not, I'm unsure how your analogy fits--unless you can show that SBC leaders question the very affirmation of the peace statement located there.
It's always a privilege to have you here, my Brother. With that, I am...
Peter
Posted by: peter | 2007.08.12 at 03:43 PM
Jeff & Grosey,
Always glad to have you guys around. And, Jeff, thank you for the warm words. Also, it is encouraging always when we agree :^)
Grace, guys. With that, I am...
Peter
Posted by: peter lumpkins | 2007.08.12 at 03:47 PM
Sorry to come on strong, Peter. I have read your many posts against creedalism (credalism is British spelling) and I do not read SBCOutpost, so I do not know whether or not they are being hypocritical. I may have misunderstood your post. I can see urging consistency--which is what I was urging with you. Sorry to have misunderstood. (I still disagree with complimentarianism, which is just a new name for subordinationism, but I do like the way you try to approach things.)
The question as to which view is the one believed by the majority of the SBC is beside the point. Majority opinions come and go--egalitarianism was the majority view in the '70s. But theological truth is not determined by majority vote.
However, I completely disagree that the SBC leaders are obeying BF&M article XVI in any real sense. It's not that they aren't peace activists, it's that they are cheerleaders for war and violence. Your analogy with pro-life views on abortion is apt, except for 2 points: 1) There is no Scripture directly on the topic of abortion, while there is much on war and peace--and the NT, at least, is completely on the side of peace and nonviolence. (Indeed, my own pro-life stance comes as an implication of nonviolence.) 2) Jesus COMMANDS us to be peacemakers (actively making peace), not peace-admirers or peace lovers. He makes it central to being children of God--no other ethical issue, certainly not abortion, is made so central for Jesus.
The SBC leaders which promote militarism and cheerlead for war have completely broken BF&M article XVI, but, more importantly, they have so broken with Jesus as to (metaphorically) be spitting in his face. That is far more serious than any other issue of biblical interpretation or obedience.
Posted by: Michael Westmoreland-White | 2007.08.12 at 08:17 PM
complimentarianism is what the bible teaches. we can either surrender the that clear teaching, or else reject it, but that's what the bible teaches.
also, abortion is murder. it's first degree, premeditated murder in what should be the most safe place in all the world...the baby's own mother's womb. and yet, some murdering dr. with the ok of the mother comes creeping in to slaughter an innocent little baby. that's sin, and it's horrific.
peter, i just had to get a few things off of my chest for some reason. :)
david
Posted by: volfan007 | 2007.08.13 at 07:01 AM
Peter,
I'm not sure how I missed this post. I am very glad that you chose to post your comment here so that it can be read for what it is: thoughtful, irenic, and important.
For the record, I was not too keen on deleting any comments from the Outpost, no matter how off-topic. I would much rather engage you in conversation than anyone thoughtlessly slinging the "liberal" word in my direction.
That said, let me try to address some of your points. First, I concur that my position from discussion of the second Outpost article seems to be thoroughly egalitarian. I admit that in the midst of the discussion I found it easier to "lean back" on a full egalitarian position than try to finesse what I believe to be a better, more scripturally faithful and missionally sophisticated choice. Plus, most of my readers would not distinguish between my perspective and egalitarianism anyway, so I chose to work with the knowledge basis they possessed.
Second, although I am disinclined to accuse anyone of inconsistency, I think your assessment of my Outpost brothers (and sisters) is correct. Their strong support for the BFM2000 as a maximal confession for cooperation, inherently excludes me as a person capable of serving the convention, no matter how much they want to include me. I am aware of this, even if they are not. I have contented myself with the realization that until the articles you reference are changed or deleted, my service to the convention will be seriously limited.
I admit that my difference with the BFM2000 makes me wish for a return to the BFM1963. I know that for some that makes me a dreaded "moderate," but I must own my beliefs. As a modified egalitarian, the strict definition of women's roles and their disqualification from pastoral ministry (in our Western context) is repugnant to me.
Now, at the risk of oversimplification, let me offer a very brief summary of my position on women's roles, the Bible, and the missional nature of the church. Much of my view on this matter comes from John Stackhouse, Jr. in his book Finally Feminist. It is worth the read, I promise.
First, I believe there is evidence in scripture both for complementarianism and egalitarianism. I think it is foolish to try to pretend that the Bible is a thoroughly egalitarian volume.
Second, I believe the overall trajectory of scripture is such that the full equality (in nature and function) of women is God's original intent for humanity (especially evidenced in Gen 1-2).
Third, I believe that because of God's mercy in condescending to work within a messy, fallen humanity, often he operated within a patriarchal system in order to accomplish his broader will--the reconciliation of all things in Christ.
Fourth, I believe Paul understood that the implications of the Gospel are such that patriarchy is overthrown in theory (Gal 3:28), but his missional commitment to see the good news received by as many people as possible rightly overshadowed any social commitments he might have had (hence, he left slavery alone, as well). So, he worked within the system, rather than against it, knowing that the End was near and the Gospel must go out un-hindered into the whole world.
Fifth, I believe we should take up Paul's model in this manner, supporting the full equality of women when the context permits it (like in the Western world), but choosing to submit to cultural mores when the context prohibits it (like in the Islamic world). In this way, the missio dei is of utmost importance.
I hope this has been clear, Peter. Thank you again for a great interchange of ideas. I think your criticism of my Outpost brethren may be well-founded, but I hope you understand that it is not easy to "bite the hand that feeds." :-)
Grace and peace to you today,
Emily
Posted by: Emily Hunter McGowin | 2007.08.14 at 01:17 PM
Dear sister Emily, Not that you need it from me, but I wanted you to know that this comment you've given Peter has created respect in my heart for you and what you have to say. Again, I know you don't need kudos, least of all from me, but I felt led to let you know. selahV
Posted by: selahV | 2007.08.15 at 08:49 AM
Emily,
Thank you for both your warm words and your skeletal outline of your theological journey on gender-leadership matters. I prize them as a great way to think through precisely how our own view either overlap or part. Perhaps our Lord may open up an opportunity for us to dialog again on this matter.
Also, I confess one of the theological vagaries with which I personally struggle is precisely how to apply 1 Tim 2.12 *outside* the Local Assembly proper. That is, while I do believe Paul clearly continues to implement the Hebrew *headship* principle in the NT Church, I have yet to discover a suitable *extension* toward which to apply that principle outside the Assembly. For me, it remains a stretch to *extend* the application of the male-leadership paradigm to institutions other than the Local Church.
What Scriptural data, for example, prohibits females from teaching men Hebrew? Or theology? Or a number of other subjects one could name? Presently, I do not know. Nor am I suggesting there is a perfectly good Biblical reason why they should not. I am only saying I do not know what that would be.
As for Outpost, Emily, I thank you for your amen. It looks now, however, with three contributors publicaly suggesting major problems with it, and consequently pulling out as a contributor, SBCOutpost may be cracking apart at the seams.
Grace. With that, I am...
Peter
Posted by: peter lumpkins | 2007.08.17 at 05:51 PM