« SelahV: A Call To Prayer | Main | Confessionalism: Southern Baptists and Confessions: Part 3 »

2007.05.16

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Michael Westmoreland-White

Peter, this week we all have to put differences aside and pray for Falwell's family, friends, church, and university.

But I do disagree that Falwell was a great man or a great leader. He began as a segregationist and even in 1984 he denounced Desmond Tutu as a "phony" and urged the Reagan admin. to continue to support the apartheid government of South Africa. In my view, such racism would negate anything else he did.

But I also disagree with the way that he undermined church-state separation and tried to get churches to wed to one political party.

peter lumpkins

Michael,

Good morning, Brother. I fully understand, I think, what you are saying. Nor did I embrace his political entanglements and think he got much too close to political figures.

I dissent on whether he was racist. Whatever his position on S. Africa, it is not necessary to conclude racism was its motivation.

Michael, I am under the impression that greatness does not reside in whether one blows my personal sails. And, of course, I believe you agree with that.

Predictably, those more to the right of center, such as myself, tend to appreciate, on a higher scale, the contributions of those who may even be further right than am I. Contrarily, my moderate Brothers, such as yourself, tend to more appreciate the contributions to both faith and culture, of those left of center and, at times, even much more Liberal than they themselves find personal comfort.

I trust, under our Lord, that, though I have not agreed with Drs. Vestal and Simmons, for example, I shall not, if I outlive them, fudge on honoring their contibutions to culture, Christianity and Baptists.

Grace today. With that, I am...

Peter

volfan007

imho, dr. falwell was a great man who influenced many, many people for Jesus Christ. he also was a huge influence on our nation. i too didnt totally agree with dr. falwell on some things....like his huge political emphasis and the jim bakker deal....but, overall dr. falwell was a great man of God.

peter, i remember growing up listening to him preach and teach the bible as my mom would listen to the old time gospel hour. the Lord definitely used him in my life.

michael, dr. falwell was no racist. good gracious! where do yall get this junk from? and, from what i hear, desmond tutu and his wife did a lot of bad things to other black people from other tribes in s. africa. something about tire necklaces and setting them on fire. ask the zulu's about tutu's wife.

anyway, to call dr. falwell a racist is really out of bounds...especially at a time like this.

God bless the falwell's and liberty u. and thomas rd. baptist church.

david....volfan007

Michael Westmoreland-White

I disagree. This has nothing to do with whether or not Falwell was more conservative than I am or Peter is or whatever. I have admired many conservatives.

But I will never admire or call great anyone who, under whatever guise, promotes hate. Falwell did that--smiling all the time. In the 1960s, he championed segregation--that's racism. And I don't see how any other explanation than racism could cause him to support apartheid (God's plan for South Africa's people, he said) and call Desmond Tutu "a phony" to be anything other than racist.

I know many people who believe all forms of homosexuality are immoral, but who do not promote hatred toward gays and lesbians. But Falwell blamed gays and lesbians for AIDS. After 9/11, he claimed that feminists, gays, pro-choicers, the ACLU, and the People for the American Way were responsible for the terrorist attacks!

He once compared the ACLU for Christians to Nazis for Jews! (Yeah, I've seen plenty of ACLU death camps, haven't you?) Another time, he claimed the anti-Christ was alive and well and living in a Jewish male!

These are not the kinds of statements a man of God makes. These are not examples of conservatism or leadership or greatness. These are the rantings of a dangerous demagogue. I am older than you and can remember more of Falwell's actions: In mobilizing the Moral Majority to vote for Ronald Reagan in 1980, Falwell asked Christians to let Christ fill them with a "divine hate" for all secularists. Divine hate??

Michael Westmoreland-White

I disagree. This has nothing to do with whether or not Falwell was more conservative than I am or Peter is or whatever. I have admired many conservatives.

But I will never admire or call great anyone who, under whatever guise, promotes hate. Falwell did that--smiling all the time. In the 1960s, he championed segregation--that's racism. And I don't see how any other explanation than racism could cause him to support apartheid (God's plan for South Africa's people, he said) and call Desmond Tutu "a phony" to be anything other than racist.

I know many people who believe all forms of homosexuality are immoral, but who do not promote hatred toward gays and lesbians. But Falwell blamed gays and lesbians for AIDS. After 9/11, he claimed that feminists, gays, pro-choicers, the ACLU, and the People for the American Way were responsible for the terrorist attacks!

He once compared the ACLU for Christians to Nazis for Jews! (Yeah, I've seen plenty of ACLU death camps, haven't you?) Another time, he claimed the anti-Christ was alive and well and living in a Jewish male!

These are not the kinds of statements a man of God makes. These are not examples of conservatism or leadership or greatness. These are the rantings of a dangerous demagogue. I am older than you and can remember more of Falwell's actions: In mobilizing the Moral Majority to vote for Ronald Reagan in 1980, Falwell asked Christians to let Christ fill them with a "divine hate" for all secularists. Divine hate??

Michael Westmoreland-White

I disagree. This has nothing to do with whether or not Falwell was more conservative than I am or Peter is or whatever. I have admired many conservatives.

But I will never admire or call great anyone who, under whatever guise, promotes hate. Falwell did that--smiling all the time. In the 1960s, he championed segregation--that's racism. And I don't see how any other explanation than racism could cause him to support apartheid (God's plan for South Africa's people, he said) and call Desmond Tutu "a phony" to be anything other than racist.

I know many people who believe all forms of homosexuality are immoral, but who do not promote hatred toward gays and lesbians. But Falwell blamed gays and lesbians for AIDS. After 9/11, he claimed that feminists, gays, pro-choicers, the ACLU, and the People for the American Way were responsible for the terrorist attacks!

He once compared the ACLU for Christians to Nazis for Jews! (Yeah, I've seen plenty of ACLU death camps, haven't you?) Another time, he claimed the anti-Christ was alive and well and living in a Jewish male!

These are not the kinds of statements a man of God makes. These are not examples of conservatism or leadership or greatness. These are the rantings of a dangerous demagogue. I am older than you and can remember more of Falwell's actions: In mobilizing the Moral Majority to vote for Ronald Reagan in 1980, Falwell asked Christians to let Christ fill them with a "divine hate" for all secularists. Divine hate??

volfan007

michael,

you are older than me? really? how old are you? i'm 45.

i still disagree with your slant on things and about falwell. you look at things thru own glasses.

again, i will say that i didnt agree with everything he said or did, either. but, he was a great man who loved the Lord.

peter,

have you seen the hateful comments on other blogs about dr. falwell? boy, i mean, hate is the word...especially from the lost crowd. the worldly crowd usually does hate anyone who stands for righteousness.

david...volfan007

Michael Westmoreland-White

The horror of "necklacing" in South Africa was NOT done by Desmond Tutu or his wife, Naomi. In fact, Naomi burned her right arm saving a woman from being necklaced. This was a horror done to those who collaborated with the white overlords, but the Tutus worked against it.

You are thinking of Winnie Mandela, Nelson Mandela's 2nd wife, who went nuts while Mandela was in prison and, to the horror of anti-apartheid leaders, endorsed the necklacing practice. Truly barbaric.

But Desmond and Naomi Tutu were and are deep, caring Christians. Tutu was known to publicly pray for the white leaders who ordered his tortures. Get the facts.

As for Falwell's racism--this is admitted in his own autobiography, although he claimed that "God told him he was wrong" in 1974. Apparently, he was wrong only about segregation in the U.S., because he was still preaching it for South Africa in 1984--10 years later.

But the beginnings of the Moral Majority in 1979 do not have to do with the struggle against abortion or even the struggle against pornography (which was when I first heard of Falwell in the late '70s), but to defend the ability of Bob Jones University to still receive federal aid without changing its segregationist policies! That was the very first campaign of the MM--to defend segregation on the campus of a fundamentalist university.

volfan007

michael,

i stand corrected. it was mandela's wife that was involved in the "necklacing."

and, may i just add that the world was a different place....especially in the south....before 1980. if you lived in the south, then you know what i mean.


david....volfan007

Michael Westmoreland-White

I grew up in the South, David. My parents chose to work against segregation and walked out of churches that preached what Falwell preached. And if he was serious about repenting of that, great. But his comments about South Africa 10 years after "God showed me I was wrong on race" make me seriously question that.

Again, this is not about conservative or liberal. I wrote a long tribute to Carl Henry when he died and he is much more conservative than I am. I just consider Falwell to have been a dangerous figure who harmed both the nation and the church--and put up stumbling blocks to the faith because he became a symbol of "Christian" to many nonbelievers.

BTW, you and I are the same age. I meant I was older than Peter and that is based on comments he has made about events, but I could be wrong.

I am sorry that one of my posts somehow got copied 3 times. Peter, if you know how to remove 2 copies, it would be best. Sorry about that.

volfan007

michael,

if you will remember, i said that i didnt agree with dr. falwell about everything. i didnt agree with some of his stands, nor on his political involvement. thus, you are seemingly getting after me for things that i would agree with you about..we both didnt agree with falwell on some things. but, overall, he was a great man of God who accomplished much in this world for the glory of God.

also, about the south before 1980...and especially before the '60's....many godly men held to segregation as being alright. they didnt hate black people. they just believed that the races should stay separate. due to culture and to thier southern raising, they just believed that it was right. they were wrong. as you and i both know. but, they were still godly men who loved the Lord. they were just wrong in this area. it doesnt make them mean spirited racists who are burning in hell. and, i dont believe for a second that dr. falwell hated black people. he was a product of his southern upbringing.

david....volfan007

Michael Westmoreland-White

I am NOT the last judge, God is. I have never said who was and who was not in hell. Nor did I say that Falwell hated African-Americans. What I say is that supporting segregation is de facto racism as is supporting apartheid. In my view, that automatically disqualifies him from being a "great leader." So do many of his other actions. I believe that Falwell harmed the nation and the church. He did not help the cause of God's Kingdom and it will take some time for evangelical Christians to be able to recover from stain he put on us and be able to spread the gospel without the Falwell shadow.

I am not "getting on" to either you, David, or Peter. I am trying to give reasons why I believe the judgment that Falwell's legacy is at all positive to be wrong.

Bob Simpson

I thank God for the ministry of Dr. Falwell in my life. When I was saved but unchurched, his television program, along with other ministries such as Billy Graham and Radio Bile Class, fed my spirit and mind from the Word of God. He also awakened me to the civic responsibility of believers and helped me understand the horror of legal abortion.

Mr Westmoreland-White's rant and smear is most unbecoming, especially so during the week of Falwell's passing.

Michael Westmoreland-White

Something is a "smear" only if the accusations are false. Everything I have said about Falwell is true and most are well-documented. He has been a very public person with quite the "paper trail." I, too, admire his concern over abortion, if not the way he pursued it. It does not negate all the harm he did elsewhere.

volfan007

michael,

i think that if you'll think back to all the south africa and aparthied thing, that many people were concerned that mandela was not just socialistic, but communistic. i beleive that was falwell's concern with s. africa back then. it was not a race thing. i really think that you are barking up the wrong tree about falwell being a racist.

david.....volfan007

Michael Westmoreland-White

So, apartheid beats communist is not a racist idea? Isn't that the imperialistic "we must save them from themselves" idea that has haunted Euro-American treatment of darker peoples for 500 years?

Michael Westmoreland-White

And whatever Falwell's fears about Mandela's supposed Communism (Mandela had been in prison for years at the time), how did that justify calling Bishop Desmond Tutu, a Nobel Peace Prize winner and, more importantly, a brother in Christ and fellow clergyman, a "phony" (his word) who didn't deserve his Nobel? Earlier, Falwell (and many others) had made similar claims about Martin Luther King,Jr--that he wasn't a real Christian or a real preacher, was a Communist, etc. It is an old tactic for smearing campaigns for racial justice.

And what of such other Falwell claims as "the Anti-Christ is alive now and in the body of a Jewish male" (1987); feminists (all of them? even Christian feminists?) were pagans who would teach girls to practice witchcraft and hate their husbands? (1989); The libellous video known as The Clinton Chronicles which claimed, with zero proof, that Bill Clinton had committed murder and run drugs and prostitution rings out of the Arkansas governor's mansion (1991); his infamous remark that the ACLU was to Christians what the Nazi Party was to Jews (1985); Or, most notoriously of all, his claim that the 9/11 attacks were God's judgment on America because of abortionists, gays, the ACLU, the People for the American Way and others--that we deserved this attack (2001). The last claim was so extreme even Pres. Bush called him and demanded an apology.
These are not the kinds of things a Christian leader says. They are the words of a hate-monger and a demagogue. If any liberal or moderate Christian said these things, Homeland Security would probably have locked them up by now. Honoring someone like this is giving honor to someone who distorted the gospel and brought disrepute to the cause of Christ.
Conservatism or liberalism or whatever has nothing to do with this. We have to reject this kind of behavior no matter who does it or when or why--and especially if a minister does it in the name of Christ.
The sad thing is that I am having to argue this instead of it being obvious.

volfan007

michael,

dr. martin luther king was a socialist and a liberal theologian who believed in a works salvation. i saw him interviewed on a tv special one time.

david...volfan007

Michael Westmoreland-White

Yes, King was a democratic socialist. So am I and I have been since Jr. High. What does that have to do with anything. Many people would call me a liberal theologian--does that make me less a brother in Christ? I wrote part of my dissertation on King, and so know VERY much about him.
What does ANY of this have to do with my point that attacking him for "Communism" was a way that racists tried to get people to ignore his movement for justice. Racism is racism. You can disagree with King's theology or his commitment to democratic socialism--but NOT as a way to ignore what he said and did about segregation. The Falwell ploy with King and with Tutu, etc. was a way to get people to discount the racism of segregation or apartheid by these kinds of red herrings about the Christian leaders of movements for justice.

Oh, King had socialist leaning. So he must have been a Communist and that means that it was okay to keep segregating. Or, oh, some of the people involved in the struggle against apartheid were Communists, so Desmond Tutu must be a phony and the U.S. should help keep the white minority govt. in power.

Ridiculous!

volfan007

michael,

i appreciate all that dr. king did to help black people have it better in the usa. i did not like his socialism...which is a kissin' cousin of communism. i do not like communism. it's an evil form of govt., and this has been demonstrated down thru the years in the ussr and china and other places. usually christians end up in prison, or shedding thier blood due to communism.

also, i do not respect anyone who distorts the gospel message. i do not appreciate anyone distorting the gospel of Jesus. and, dr. king did teach a works salvation. he believed that salvation came thru living for good causes, or even dying for that cause. that's works salvation pure and simple, and that leads people to hell. so, no, i dont appreciate dr. king like some people do. and, it has nothing to do with racism. if he was white and preaching like that, then i would not appreciate him.

david....volfan007

Michael Westmoreland-White

The question is not whether you like King personally or not, David. The question is whether you would have, as Falwell did, try to use your disagreements with King to justify segregation and motivate resistance to the Civil Rights movement. Or whether you, like Falwell, would have used disagreements with Desmond Tutu to try to discredit him and shore up U.S. support for the apartheid government. Of course a white person may disagree with a black person without being racist. But if a white person, especially a prominent TV preacher, uses misdirection, red herrings, personal attacks, etc. to attempt to undermine black leadership of a movement for racial justice, THAT is racist.
Those are the actions that made Falwell racist and a demagogue. His distortions of the gospel were greater than anything King's social gospel tendencies ever had.

volfan007

michael,

i dont agree with you. i guess we'll just have to leave it at that. i dont think that you are considering all the factors behind dr. falwell's stands on these issues.

david....volfan007

SelahV

Many people have been blessed by Rev. Falwell. Many students have been educated through his school. Many have been saved as a result of his faithfulness to the Lord he proclaimed and loved.

When he died all the hay and stubble was burned away. And when he entered the Kingdom of Heaven the Lord said, "well done my good and faithful servant."

Would that we could do likewise. I do pray with all my heart that his family never reads the comments in this blog, though.
selahV

volfan007

selah,

amen.

david...volfan007

The comments to this entry are closed.