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2007.01.15

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selahV

Peter: Wha's a matter? You aren't up to writing a blog since your honey got home? Ha! Haven't been to Keith's yet, but it's funny you should bring that up since I just posted on Saturday a bit about John 3 myself on my WHAT MATTERS blog. Now I'll have to go read Keith and see where I am tee-totally wrong in how I think. ha! selahV

peter

SelahV

Actually I'm really swamped on another writing project. But I would have linked Keith anyway. It is a great post. Grace.

With that, I am...

Peter

Richard Coords

Peter,

Thanks for the link and I will check out it. I've also, just today, in fact, completed a writeup on Regeneration. It distiguishes the difference between the Prevenient Grace of "Illumination" and "Regeneration" In Christ, and offers a quote from Adrian Rogers about the difference between "Sight" and "Light."

Calvinism teaches that unless a man is made born again, he cannot believe in the Gospel. Calvinism teaches that people are preemptively placed "in Christ" in order to gain access to what is alone reserved in Christ, namely, the regeneration to a new creature with a NEW HEART. This new heart is absolutely essential for what Calvinism MUST have in order for the decision of Calvinism's "elect" to be rendered 100% "irresistible." I just compelted it today because of a discussion that is taking place today on Study Light Forums.

Study Light discussion on Regeneration:

http://www.studylightforums.org/viewtopic.php?p=7581#7581

My article on Regeneration:

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/ac_bornagain.html

Critical analysis is alsways welcome.

Peter, by the way, Alan at the Calvinist Gadfly has turned off his website from others posting on it, so you may see additional traffic from his site to yours, as a result of those wishing to discuss subjects on Calvinism.

Richard Coords

Also, after some research, it appears that Charles Spurgeon may have taught a "Gap Theory" of sorts.

http://examiningcalvinism.blogspot.com/

Keith Schooley

Thanks for the link, Peter. I'd be happy to read any critiques anyone may have on my perspective. God bless.

Richard Coords

Keith,

I attempted to post a rewiew, but I think that the first of two posts was lost.

In any case, I felt that you did a great job. In terms of the "wind" argument, I can easily see the Calvinist inferring that it means that the Holy Spirit regenerates people mysteriously, electing those whom He will, like the wind rushing in and then vanishing.

However, Calvinist William MacDonald interprets that verse to mean that when a person becomes born again, it is like the wind which blows, in that the things which he formerly loved, he now hates, and the things which he formerly hated, he now loves. A person who goes from a life of drugs and alcohol, to a life in Christ of prayer and praising God is just like the example of the wind. When a person truly surrenders their heart to Christ (John 3:16), a miracle takes place much like the on-rushing wind as the go from being the old creature, to the new creature. If Nicodemus would place his trust in this "teacher sent from God" then he too would experience this miracle of spiritual resurrection.

Keith Schooley

Thanks Richard. I'm not sure why your comment got lost; sorry about that. Yes, I think the verse by itself could bear a Calvinist interpretation, but the larger context seems to preclude it. It also seems significant to me that Jesus says, "So it is with everyone born of the Spirit," not, "So it is with the Spirit of God."

McDonald's interpretation seems a stretch to me. I'd have to read more on why he takes the verse that way.

volfan007

i'd say that all the Spirit being like the wind means is that it's an inward work of God in the heart of man. and, like the wind, you cant see it, but you see the effects of it. you cant lay your eyeballs on the wind, but you can see it blowing the leaves, and you can see it knocking down houses. so, with the Spirit of God and the new birth. you cant see the work of salvation in a human heart...its not an outward thing as the pharisees tried to legalistically make it to be. instead, its an inward working of God in the heart. and, once a person is truly saved, then you can see the effects of Gods Spirit in a man. He will make a difference in that persons life.

five pointers try to read so much into everything....as do arminians. it seems so simple to me. i guess i'm just a simple man. oh, wait a minute, i hear a lynyrd skynyrd song beginning to play.

volfan007

selahV

Volfan: Now you're talkin! It seems that simple to me too. Glad you worded it so well. You speak for me too. (Except for your last paragraph) I can't judge folks who don't see like I do because I know they read more things than I do and in reality, I simply can't see what they see. So I can't expect them to see what I see. Ya see? selahV

Mary

I love to meet Christians who read nothing, but their Bible. So much of this "theology" stuff just seems to mess up peoples minds. I love to meet those who have no preconceptions about what the Bible says. It's just them, their Bible and the Holy Spirit. I see a little of that with my children. For school I often ask them to rewrite what a particular verse means to them. My son chose John 3:16 for a project. It warmed my heart to see him holding his Bible and saying "I love that verse." I asked him what he thought that verse means. His response? God loves everybody so much that Jesus died for everyone in the world. The faith of a child.

peter

Mary,

Thank you for warming my heart. I think your son teaches us well. We should listen.

Grace. With that, I am...

Peter

Keith Schooley

Volfan, my brother,

You keep trying to play the "pox on both your houses" card ("five pointers try to read so much into everything....as do arminians")! Yet I doubt you could come up with a single point of disagreement with Arminian theology. (No doubt you disagree with some Arminians regarding eternal security, but Arminians are themselves divided on that point.)

You're free not to take the name, but just between us, I don't really think you've come up with a "third way" of looking at the issue.

And by the way, I agree with you and SelahV regarding John 3:8. That's the way I understand it, too.

selahV

Mary: I love to see folks who read their Bible and receive guidance from the Holy Spirit too. I am especially moved by children's view of God. I bought a little book by Max Lucado and gave it to my granddaughter a year ago. "I Love You This Much." She reads it all the time. There were places I drew smiley faces in it and personalized it with each granddaughter's name. Every now and then, my oldest one tells me how God talked to her in that book. Last time she was here, she took her Bible to church and went through each and every verse the Pastor used in his sermon. She told me afterwards, "ya know what, mimi? I really got alot out of big church this morning." She just turned 9. She was saved at age 7. She loves Jesus. She doesn't know a thing about soteriology, our Baptist history or others. But she seems to be quite aware of when God is speaking to her. Amazing, huh?
thanks for sharing your story. SelahV

volfan007

keith,

while i might agree with you on many things, and i might agree with five pointers on many things, i still find the truth somewhere between the two. i refuse to try to make the bible fit into a system. so, i appreciate you, my brother...i love you in the Lord. i also love dr. nettles and tom ascol in the Lord. but, i cannot go the way of making God fit into my box.

volfan007

selahV

Keith: Went over to your site and read what you wrote about Jesus and Nicodemus. Liked your reasoning and explanations. Would have told you over there, but couldn't figure out how to post. I'm such a ninny when it comes to new ways of doing things.
Do you think one of the reasons the pharisees were so sarcastic with Jesus is that they didn't want to have to change their way of thinking after they had already made up their minds that their way of thinking was the only way of thinking about God? SelahV

Keith Schooley

SelahV--

Oh yes, absolutely! Plus, their influence largely rested on the status quo remaining relatively unchanged. I once wrote a song based on the baptism of Jesus--from the viewpoint of one of the religious leaders looking on. The bridge to the song went like this:

Messiah can't come now
We've got too much invested in how
We've learned to get along on our own
What's gonna happen if He's on the Throne?

(BTW, I thought you'd posted a time or two on my site before. That's the second person who's told me they've had trouble; I hope there's no techie stuff going wrong. Anyway, if you click on where it says "X Comments"--X being the number of them, or if you click on where it says "Post a comment," it'll bring up the comments posting page.)

Volfan--

I appreciate you and love you in the Lord, too. God bless.

selahV

Keith: So do you think that people (Baptists un-reformed) are thought of by the reformers as those kind of pharisees who want to keep status-quo? SelahV

selahV

Keith: In regards to your thoughts on the servant who first is forgiven his debts, then when he doesn't forgive another's is then thrown in jail till he's able to pay for his original debt...Are you saying a person can lose salvation? I tried again to post this, but it wouldn't let me on your site. it won't open the comments. don't get it. It wants me to download the comment box to my computer. sorry, selahV

Keith Schooley

Hi SelahV--

Sorry I missed your questions for a couple of days. I'm glad I checked back.

On the first question (do reformed-types think of non-reformed types as Pharisees who want to keep the status quo), I really don't know. Maybe they just think that we want to conform to popular opinion too much. In my piece, I was focusing on Nicodemus as a Pharisee himself, thinking that being a Jew who observes the Law is sufficient to be included in the Kingdom, and Jesus saying, No, 1) you have to be born again; 2) it's an inward work done by the Spirit of God, not an outward achievement like keeping the Law; and 3) it's received by believing on the Son of Man, not by Law keeping. That's Jesus' focus; not divine election at all.

On your second question, aside from quibbles about the word "lose," yes, I do believe someone who has genuinely been saved can, over a period of time of willful sin, eventually come to the place where he rejects his relationship with Jesus, and thus "loses" his salvation. I think there are too many biblical warnings against doing just that to assume that it's not possible.

You should know that I'm not a Baptist, so I'm not bound by church affiliation to affirm eternal security. On this forum, I keep quiet about that subject, partly because it simply doesn't interest me nearly as much as the election issue does, and partly because I feel that as a guest in a Baptist "home," I should have good enough manners not to pick fights with my host that he hasn't picked with me!

I just tried clicking on the "Post a Comment" link on my blog, and it seemed to work okay, but maybe it's just because I'm the blog author. I'm going to try to get a friend to navigate to the comment posting page, to see if he can do it. Sorry for the problems you've encountered. You might try just using this URL, which should get you to the comments posting page: http://schooleyfiles.blogspot.com/2007/01/divine-election-in-john-3.html

BTW, I've visited your two sites a couple of times. Haven't found anything useful to contribute to the comments sections, but I appreciate your spirit and the insights that you share.

Grace and peace,

Keith

Keith Schooley

Sorry, SelahV--

This is the URL to the comments page that I intended to give you:
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=18950992&postID=8354192939467519187

That should get you there--that is, if you're even still interested!

selahV

Keith: I'll answer the last comment first. Yes, I'm still interested and will navigate on over to your site as soon as I comment here. I figured you may have overlooked coming back to check comments. I did the same thing. You wrote back to me and I missed it. So don't feel bad. I don't comment on very many sites anymore. Not particularly interested in having doors slammed in my face. Ha. Ha. but where I find amiable people who can disagree with me without meanspiritedness, I love to communicate.

I'm finding Jim U, quite amiable and kindhearted in the blogpost above this one on Mercer. However, I believe I've took Jim on a rabbit trail far from our kind host's topic. Good thing he likes me, huh? And since no one else is commenting, I guess it's okay. Till the host comes back and tells me to cool it. hee hee.
As far as your understanding of losing salvation, I would indeed like to hear what you have to say on the subject. So is there a particular blog you have written regarding that issue?

Now, I'm on my way over via your link to see how I can give you my penny's worth of thoughts. selahV

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