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uuhh, peter, could you repeat all that again for me? lol.

very good. very clear. thanks.

also, about the tn baptist tradition. what was that? can you explain to me what they were all about? i would be interested in hearing about them.




There is a difference between poking a yellow-jacket nest with a 50' pole, and squeezing the nest with your hands. Great scholarly post!

Have fun :)

Michael Westmoreland-White

Peter, that is a truly devastating review. It shows how desperate the Founders types are to "read out" of Baptist life all that isn't 5-point scholastic Calvinism.

And views like this say nothing, as one of your authors notes, about African-American Baptists in the South.


Dear Brother David,

Thanks always. I know it was a long one. As for The Tennessee Church tradition, I think if you just recall good old J.R., you may be headed down the right path :)

The unity we have held over time is miraculous given our diversity as Baptist believers.

Grace. With that, I am...



Dear Joe,

You will be sorry you stung me so bad. With that, I am...




What's even worse, Michael, is I possibly had enough "stuff" to post again! It really is that bad.

And, of course, you are right about our ignoring the African-American mind and mores in the South.

Peace. With that, I am...



PETER: I'm so refreshed now, I could blog all night! :) selahV




j.r. graves?

john r. rice?

peter, who are you talking about?



Dear David,

Sorry for not getting back sooner. Also I thought you'd guess my "JR' was Graves.

Though his influence in Landmark thinking was more post-1845, I feel sure that Shurden is speaking of the Tennessee tradition as involving in some important ways, Landmarkism because of its prevalence there even before the SBC. I may be imprecise here since I'm only going from memory and at my age, senility comes in spurts:)

I have not read Shurden that much. Two or three books and some papers in Baptist Heritage & History, none of which I recall spells out in detail The Barnes Lectures (1980) Bridges mentions and Humphreys follows.

Nevertheless, Baptist History studies has surely been shaped significantly over the past quarter century by Shurden.

The quote I alluded to was from Fisher Humphreys' book, "The Way We Were." I have read much of Humphreys' works. Indeed he was my systematic theology professor at NOBTS. I learned more about Calvinism from him I suppose than any other one person.

Humphreys had an incredible gift of fairness to those views with which he disagreed. I would like to think a fraction of his spirit of fairness I have embraced myself.

For Humphreys, it does not matter your "theological" or "political" stripe; he is one cool cat when it comes to dialog. Though we disagreed many times--and still do--I never once felt from him a sense of superiority or his view was definitively right and mine wrong, and that even as a student. Rather through a series of engaging questions, he drew me so many times to understand not his position but MINE even better.

Have a great afternoon, my brother David. With that, I am...




thanks. j.r. graves truly left his mark on tn baptists.


Michael Westmoreland-White

Yes, and some of us are STILL trying to get rid of that mark that Graves left on Baptists. Landmarkism is so bad it makes me really appreciate Calvinism!


Peter: your posts are not dark, nor are they dreary. I've learned alot by reading your blog. I've saved the money of investing in a book which will not edify, challenge nor change me. You've helped with that and I for one, am grateful.

Am looking forward to some of your new ideas and thought-filled posts as soon as you get over your bee stings. Have a great weekend. selahV

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