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Peter! Do you believe that? Jonathan thinks I need to seek help.

Jonathan: I do rely on the Helper. That, my dear son, is what I was saying in my first post to you. We are N E V E R going to have all the answers this side of heaven. And many things you adhere to and believe in today will change in years to come. ALL that is unchangeable, unshakeable, and certain is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.

With all the volumes of words that Spurgeon wrote in his lifetime on multiple interpretations of scripture, when he lay on his deathbed he is quoted to have said, "All my theology has come down to these four words. Jesus died for me."

I find that rather simple theology.

Jonathan is right, though. I do need help. I need a computer genius. But I need someone I can trust. And there is only one person I can trust with my computer. Now, my emotional well- being is most certainly best trusted in the hands of the Lord. And I am grateful for the many gifted Spirit-filled counselors who are gracious enough to share time with me. But if there were some doctrinal thing that I thought completely untrustworthy, why would I trust them with my emotional well-being? Or my spiritual health?

I do not need man/woman to explain every jot and tittle of life, nor every chunk of scripture interpreted to me that I don't understand. I simply take my ignorance to the Lord.

I ask you, anyone...Is anything wrong with that? I trust that He will explain it all to me via His Holy Spirit or some person I meet along life's path. But some things just don't need explaining to me. God even pointed that out to Job. We do not need to have all the answers. But some to me are simple. Faith in Jesus. Baptism. The Lord's Supper.

Jesus said be baptized. I did. I don't care how anyone else viewed it outside my little New England Southern Baptist Church. I don't care if folks think we (SBs) are all wacko (which most do already). I don't even care if Calvinists sit beside me in worship or Catholics. I just love being a Christian because trusting Jesus has made my life all that is worth living for. SelahV


Jonathan: Actually I was going to guess your age as between 22 and 26, but decided I'd add a bit more age and also be on the safe side of the younger age. And Volfan is correct.

And before you think I'm dissing you for your youth, let me add that I believe some of the deepest spiritual questions today do not come from the scholarly, deep-thinking theologians with long white beards. I believe the questions come from the young and idealistic. Unfortunately, with idealism, reality finds itself hardpressed to squeeze in next to it on the sofa. Thus, the idealist rests more on the ideal answer than the answer most realistic. Ideally we'd all be in Eden. Realistically we are in a fallen world. Ideally we'd all own mercedes we could use as loaner cars or even give away. Realistically? Most of us are not Bill Gates.

And dear, Jonathan, your tenaciousness simply reminds me of others your age, myself included. So, God bless you, hon. SelahV



so, you are a yankee? just when i was getting to like you, too. you dont speak bad english like the rest of them yankees, do you?
i declare that people up north need to learn english. it's sure help if we all talked the same language. selah, do you know what a pecan pie is? sweet tea? mashed taters? a bush hog?

just curious.

btw, just how far north do you live?




Yankee? Sorta. I was born and raised 35 miles south of Washington D.C amid the Quantico Marines. I was a northerner during school years, then got to spend my summers in God's blessed land of Tennesee hollows of Butler which you may know nestles in the Blue Ridge mountains near Mountain City.

I met my Yankee husband while he was stationed in the Quantico and much to my Navy father's objection, he took me back to his Connecticut territory in Hartford. His mother warned him not to go hooking up with one of them Southern belles while he was in VA. But he didn't listen.

She still holds that against him...ha. But the joke was definitely on her. Cause when we both were saved in that little So.Bapt church in CT, we grew like Tennesee beans and off to Kentucky we went to follow God's call into the ministry. We sold our home, packed up a few belongings, checked my 8 year old son and 10 year old daughter and moved them from Yankeeland to Dixie. Oh the stories I could tell you about those days. Sooooo funny.

So I am a transplanted rebel/yankee/rebel/westerner. Cause now I'm living in Oklahoma. You can still like me...I speak Southern. I had to teach my husband not to call the Lord Lawrd in the south cause folks would think he was talking about homemade Crisco. You should've heard him preach in the early days. Hilarious.

Dear Volfan, I don't think we'll ever speak the same language. The Lord took care of that at Babel. Somethin about thinking they were gonna be better than God cause they all could agree on building the biggest tower in the world.

Kinda reminds me of some folk who think the greatest among us are from the mega churches. While I've found some giants in faith in those megaplexes, I've found a bunch of giants in the churches still squabbling over what color hymnals to purchase. Yeah, some folks still use them things. Go figure.

Let's see, pecan pie...that's that yummy brown gooey stuff ya drown pecan halves in so you can gain another 5 pounds at every fellowship in Southern churches. And mashed taters are those white potatoes you smash with a masher, add thick cream and churned butter to and cover in Grama's white gravy. And sweet tea is that refreshing drink in an ice-filled glass that northerners drink hot in a fancy china cup. And a bush hog? I think there are two of those. One hides in the bushes and the other whacks them bushes down to the ground so you can find those hogs that hide in bushes.

What I'd like to know is how to make chocolate gravy and white buttermilk fritters. mmmmmmm mmm good. Happy New Year!

peter: you having blackeyed peas tomorrow? I'm not. No historical evidence that the tradition has any viable significance. And can't find any scriptural references either. :) So I'm having a Yankee beef stew. Know what that is, Volfan? SelahV

Jonathan K.


For some reason, my latest post to you has been deleted or somehow disappeared. So, I am re-posting it...


I know you’re a Baptist, Peter, but I think you missed the grammar of my post. I said, “Unless you believe in baptismal regeneration,” which suggests you do NOT believe in baptismal regeneration. That is the grammatical interpretation of what I said. I implied the negative, that you do NOT believe in baptismal regeneration, and I am glad you do not believe in that, nor do I, even as a non-Baptist.

I also agree with you, as a non-Baptist, that water baptism is an outward symbol of an inner/other reality, that reality being the salvation of a believer, and the baptism of that believer into Christ (see Romans 6 and 1 Cor. 12:13). I have discussed this in-depth in my blog, and I encourage you to peruse it at your leisure (the URL is http://worldoffaith.wordpress.com).

However, I only see the symbolism of salvation and baptism into Christ. I do not see baptism as somehow symbolic of entrance or initiation into the church (be it local or universal). I have yet to see a scriptural argument of why some believe that water baptism serves as an entrance or initiation into the church. I keep pressing the point because you assert that baptism is symbolic of the reality of initiation into the church (universal as you believe, but local as others do).


I disagree. I do believe that a Christian believe can become immovable and unshakeable. In fact, that’s a must in the day in which we live. We must learn to become stable individuals and not to be moved or shaken at all. Paul even said, “Nothing moves me.”

Nothing is wrong with that, and I am glad you are hopefully plugged into a church and hopefully connected with a pastor. I am confident that he is probably in a better position to serve you than I am, being that he sees you in-person, and knows you more than I do. I was just being kind of friendly, and offering to help someone who I saw was in need (and admits she is so needy). That’s all --- it was motivated by pure Christian love and compassion, nothing more and nothing less.

Lastly, I leave you with this thought: I believe we should base our theology on that which is ideal, and not what is in the real world. That way, we’ll see heaven on earth, don’t you think?




I read your post at your site. Actually, you make no point you have not already made here.

Know, my Brother, I have now stated at least three times, I have absolutely no goal in your accepting either my position or the historic Baptist position. Thus it's strange you continue to milk those differences, Jonathan.

I encourage you to consider some standard works on the subject of Baptism. Michael mentioned some great works in an earlier post. No offense, but I hardly think Mark Chironna is a suitable authority in this discussion.

Peace. With that, I am...


Jonathan K.


I have read some Baptist authors, and have examined their view of water baptism. I've read both the systematic theology volume by Wayne Grudem, and I've also read Erickson's volume "Christian Theology." I found the arguments of Erickson unconvincing, but I liked what Grudem says. But I don't think Grudem teaches water baptism is an initiatory rite.

So, why is Dr. Mark Chironna not a suitable authority? He is an ordained minister and a pastor. He is well-respected in my theological community, at least. What disqualifies him?



Jonathan: You said: "We must learn to become stable individuals and not to be moved or shaken at all."

Operative words in your quote, "learn to become". And when you have learned this, come back and tell me how much of what you believe today is as unshakeable and unchanged.

Now to the fact that I am "Needy". I said that in sarcasim to you, but since you don't know me and you keep going back to it, I figure I better clear that little item up. Of course, in my humble opinion, Jonathan, we are all needy. Very very needy. Without Christ we are nothing. Therefore any word you say and any deed you do and any success you have is only as fruitful as your attachment to the Vine.

I'm not one to spin my wheels in conversation that leads to nowhere, so I'll just bow to your superior intellect, my son and move on.

HEY VOLFAN: My condolences on your loss today. Simply can't trust those Yankees. We had a nailbiter here in OK, too. Can you believe those tater planters in Idaho? Tricky little devils.

But my heart belongs to Brady so I have alot to look forward to as time moves on.


Jonathan K.


Learning to become immovable and not be shaken by the challenges of life is an important aspect of Christian maturity. Paul wrote in Acts 20:24 (NKJV), "But none of these things (see verse 23) move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God." Paul then also writes in 1 Cor. 15:58 (NAS), "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing your toil is not in vain in the Lord." Becoming immovable and steadfast in the Lord are important virtues and aspects of maturity in Christ.

And I'm sorry for picking up on the "needy" word, I was just trying to reach out a helping hand and exhort you as a sister in Christ. That's all. :)



I'm glad you read some Baptist theologians'works. And since their works are surely more clear than my short little posts, our discussion on this Jonathan ahs run its course.

Peace for today. With that, I am...



Jonathan: Please. Go back and re-read my posts. (I have, each time I've responded to your comments as I scratch my head and wonder how you got "that" from what I'd written.)

I am most clear that the Christian is indeed immoveable IN CHRIST. Man's feeble attempt at being God and thinking he has ALL the answers for people within and without his own faith is what I view as untrustworthy, self-exalting and shakeable--annnnd in some cases baselessly laughable.

In my husband's ministry of 23 years and mine, as a minister's wife, I have met thousands of folk who can point out every chink in everyone else's armor. We could rebuild Rome with all the boards in other's eyes if we could but extract them...(we can't, they must do it themselves before they can even see clear enough to pick the speck from others')

I've lived THROUGH turmoils, debates, and battles which you can only read about. So has Peter and many other commenters on this site. Yet you repeatedly question--a bit arrogantly in my opinion--a Baptist's doctrinal beliefs as if you have an inside track to the throne via the book of Acts.

I do not know your pastor and from some of what you have shared regarding his behaviour toward others, I find him doing his best to serve the Lord with all he has. However, to assume he be the authoritative period and exclamation point in Baptist theology and doctrine begs a giggle in my belly.

I would place my soul and understanding of the Baptist beliefs, solidly in the palms of Peter's guidance, knowledge and wisdom from here to eternity. So, again I say, man is not trustworthy unless his words, actions and thoughts have been proven faithful and righteous in the sight of God and man. Peter has proven himself TO ME, to be faithful, knowledgeable and WISE beyond his years.

You would do well, my son, to sit at his feet rather than scurry about looking for the ingredients to bake a cake and searching for brooms to clear out cobwebs from Baptist ceilings.

I thank you for your deep interest in trying to help me, son. I covet your prayers. It was your tone that threw me. A constant quoting of what one writes in jest in the middle of a serious subject to lighten the seriousness, brings to mind the less seriousness of what one is trying to convey as sincere. My apologies for "writing in sarcastic jest" which only served to give you fodder for viewing me in that light and trying to "exhort" me.

May the Lord pour out His blessings upon you Jonathan. May He bless your diligent study with His knowledge and your search for truth with His wisdom. Have a happy fruitful new year.

Meanwhile I shall continue to sing, "Leaning, leaning, leaning on the Everlasting Arms". If you don't understand that, all I can says is selahV

R. L. Vaughn

Peter, you mention that baptism and the Lord's supper have not always been the only practices Baptist viewed as ordinances. The very influential Philadelphia Confession named the laying-on-of-hands (after baptism) as an ordinance.

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