« Karen Swallow Prior on John Piper's Advice to Women in Troubled Marriages | Main

May 10, 2018

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Lydia

That's all it took to go bat for JD Hall to help save his ministry position and get his public to go along. Not getting his continual selective outrage and looking the other way for some who teach same things.

Robert Vaughn

"...and disgraced former Baptist pastor, Ben Cole." Since when did Ben re-engage?

peter lumpkins

https://baptistblog.wordpress.com/

Lydia

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/02/06/why-aaron-schock-quickly-dumped-cole/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1757c0a9e69b

peter lumpkins

Thanks for that link Lydia. I had it saved in Pocket at one time I think. But now I captured it once again.

Robert Vaughn

Thanks, Peter and Lydia. I thought Ben Cole had rode off into a sunset somewhere out of the Baptists' hair. Guess I haven't been keeping up!

Lydia

He seems to have come back out of nowhere but I suspect the strategic planning on the hit has been in the works by the Mohler cabal with good timing. Somebody who can feed WaPo, Huffpo, etc. Russ Moore people or Ben Cole who have the contacts.

Scott Shaver

"Sowing and reaping" on a temporal plane. We give ourselves over entirely to the mechanics of culture and we become the victims thereof.

Bill Signer

It’s become quiet over here again...

Do you not have anything to say about this past week’s events in the SBC?

peter lumpkins

Bill,

It's most likely evident to those who've read this site since 2006 when I began blogging have figured out that the passion I once possesed for writing about SBC affairs has pretty much vanished. I had something to say about the Patterson issue and said it. Now that the trustees have spoken as a board, the matter is settled. Time to move on. I only wish those who publicly claimed offense would do the same. But they won't and are not. Rather they keep publicly complaining that Patterson didnt get a stronger rope around his neck so that he'd remain hanging until dwad. Which, ironically, in my view, demonstrates nicely my position. Namely, this issue was never really about moral principle. Instead the issue was Patterson the man.

Grace.

With that, I am...
Peter

Lydia

If the issue had been about moral principles or even victims, I would be on board. While I have had concerns about the players who going after him for quite a while, reading Klouda’s legal testimony was like a punch in my gut and affirmed many of my other concerns on other issues since about 2009. And I certainly hope SBC women don’t need a human male “savior” to represent and speak for them. Sheesh. That is going backwards. Just leave if that’s the case. Church is voluntary!

I have a few predictions based on ALL the players, including those big cheese leaders making comments to the media and on social media. The “now” SJW Neo Cal leaders are going to bandwagon #metoo for the SBC to deflect from themselves and their past horrible corruption which includes the same or worse (pedophiles and perverts galore) as Patterson including Driscoll and Mahaney. (See proposed resolutions discussed on Voices). They are going to soften their stance on women’s “roles” for recruitment and reimaging the SBC. New fad based on culture not principle to rally new adoring fans and troops.

I can understand people staying in a local church they love but the SBC, which is now top down with Pope Mohler, has been over for a while. Now it’s about money and camera time.

All this did...going after an old admiral in a rowboat all these years later....was to provide deflection and cover for Mohler and Moore, revenge for Burleson and Cole —who I thought hated each other. Lol. Patterson is not nearly as clever as they are. And I am a long time foe of Patterson.

But I know a big targeted, coordinated and well timed political hit con when I see one. There are no good guys in any of it, IMO. Color me jaded. And I need a shower now.

Lydia

Peter, I hope your passion for research remains and you continue to share new found nuggets. I love obscure or ignored history. It’s the only reason I check Facebook— which I have always despised with a thousand white hot suns.

peter lumpkins

Lydia,

Thanks. While I'm fairly well bled out on denominational politics, I remain fueled about our Baptist past. My dissertation is officially in the hands of an international committee made up of scholars from abroad and one in the USA. Plus I've submitted one paper based on my research to an academic journal and presently finishing a second one, all part of the program. The insights I've gained into confessionalism among 19th century Baptists were in large part unpredicted and stunning really. Three scholars who've previewed some of my research have been highly encouraging. One Baptist historian who is well known in moderate and/or liberal circles mentioned I had the makings for a potential revisionist history. Of course, while it makes me feel good about my research, I'm unsure I am up to accomplishing such a tall order. One thing I think it will do when it makes it to the shelves in the academic community whether by book or journal arricle: Reformed Baptists will no longer be bragging the world over that Philadelphia Calvinisn dominated Baptists in the southern states during the Nineteenth Century.

Lydia

Peter, That is excellent news. Hope to read it. My guess is background and experience was a big factor, too. I suspected something similar but more subtle from quite a few secular history sources that seem to weave a similar story on the evolution of determinism. Reading the Founding Father’s personal letters was a big one. But a surprising source of questioning determinism was Harriet Beecher Stowe. I had read a biography and the horrible ecclesiastical trial her father was put through. Then I read a little known book she wrote called, “Ministers Wooing”. A subtle sub theme is her questioning Calvinism. Those are just a few off the top of my head Where we see an evolution and how people started to change how they viewed God’s character.

I know your research deals in creeds and confessions, etc, which is totally different. But I have long maintained that we cannot be so cognitively dissonant with a belief in self government along side determinism. And I think the former founding concept is under assault. And SJW Neo Calvinists are right in the middle of it. It only follows that Calvinism and the collective go together well.

Kenny St.John

Years after Darrell Gilyard was aided and abetted in his abuses of dozens of women, we now have information about an unreported rape, missing files that could be crucial to an investigation, and a woman receiving unbelievable council after her husband gives her two black eyes, and Lydia, your concern seems to be Calvinists. Patterson was not fired by a bunch of Calvinists. The men who fired him know him, love him and have all the facts concerning him. Let's please, just for a moment and for the sake of all those abused, put the silliness about Calvinists aside and express love and concern for the victims. Oh, and yes, I am a Calvinist. I take no pleasure in Patterson's fall or the abuses of the women. It is all a tragedy.

Lydia

Sorry, Kenny. I don’t know how old you are but there is a good chance I was advocating for victims (with boots on the ground) and as a board member for a rape crisis and DV center when you were a toddler. I also was involved in developing the initial sexual harassment training program for companies in my state back in the dark ages of the EEOC. You don’t get to lecture me about victims.

Let me tell you what I despise: Two tiered justice. Selective prosecution and hypocrisy. So, go back to the strategy table and try again. Then bring SBC member CJ Mahaney and his protectors with you. Perhaps “ Wom3n are P—-homes” Acts 29/SBC Church plabpnting partner, Driscoll with you, too. Pedophilia has innocent victims, too, in case you have not heard. And the Lord knows the misogyny taught and practiced by Mohler, Moore and the gang for a long time.

Let me know when you are serious about house cleaning.

Kenny St.John

Lydia, I will not embarrass you with just how much I know about the Darrell Gilyard incident. I was the Senior High Youth Director at FBCJ for several years and I never allowed Gilyard to be involved with the youth. I was suspicious of his motives way back then and after explaining them to Dr. Lindsay, he never made me use him. He was brought in as soon as I left the church by Dr. Jerry Vines. You can read about that in Dr. Vines “re-edited” autobiography. I expressed outrage with Mahaney and strongly encouraged at the time that he no longer have any involvement with T4G. I thought he should have been disciplined by his church for another incident related to his church’s school. You do not know me and it shows. I am a deeply committed cessationist and never followed Driscoll because of that conviction. I never bought or read his books. I did not support his ministry in any way. I found his “revelations” spurious. I never believed he fully embraced “Sola Scripture.” I attended Southwestern Seminary while Dr. Patterson was President there. I attended that seminary because of my love and respect for him. Because of the Gilyard incident and what I know to be the facts, I became very disappointed with some of the SBC leadership. If you want, I will give what I know to be true about Gilyard’s coverup and his continued promotion after many of his abuses had come to light. I am amazed how no one, I mean no one, wants to remember Gilyard. If you have statements from Mohler that you believe are misogynistic, give them. Give them now for me, and for anyone else to read. Again I say, If you have them, give them. Dorothy Patterson wrote for the “Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.” Her writings are in print. What are your thoughts about her? Again, if you have Mohler statements, give them. Any and all of them. Oh, let us all know what your thoughts are about missing files. I do not desire to go back and forth with you. Nor, do you with me, trust me. Let’s agree to disagree and leave it at that. However, Calvinism is not your best dodge concerning Patterson. Calvinists did not fire him, his friends did. Take it up with them. Gilyard, a rape, a woman with two black eyes, and missing files. Maybe you need another cup of the kool-aide. Oh, and let me know when “you” want a serious house cleaning. By the way, I am 66 years of age and was at what I believe was first “secret” meeting of the Conservatives at First Baptist Church Atlanta. Where were you then? I was there with Dr. Lindsay, Paige Patterson, Danny Aikin, and Adrian Rogers. We met at the airport and then traveled by car to the meeting. Dr. Lindsay wanted me to be there. I was also his guest at the historic Pastors Conference when he was the President of the Pastors Conference and Dr. Criswell nominated Dr. Adrian Rogers as the next President of the SBC. My advice to you is know who you are chatting with before you go too far. I have no desire to continue our chat. It serves no real purpose for,either one of us.

Lydia

Kenny, you purposely miss the point and at your age there is no excuse for “one sided” outrage. I don’t care who you are. I am a nobody. The SBC Goliath of Mohler/Moore is rotten to the core and just as guilty as Patterson of the same things.

They should also be ruined today for their recent past. So why aren’t they? Because Patterson is being used to cover for them all. I can smell Russ Moore’s perfume a mile away. .

The lemmings and Lenin’s Useful Idiot archetypes are working either ignorantly or on purpose with this timed, very well coordinated political hit. Patterson was used as the ONLY bad guy to protect and deflect from the more clever evil charlatans. Patterson was framed as THE face of the bad SBC to deflect from Mohler/Moore faction and they can become the face of saving women in the SBC. I guess they are locking CJ in a closet somewhere? .

They are the same except the ones behind taking down Patterson have the real power and control the entities and SBC resources. They needed an image rehab and used Patterson so they could hijack #metoo and put themselves out there as the good guys. (Nevermind all the pedophilia they covered up—who cares about kids when they can save grown women and the grown women are swooning!. It’s disgusting)

The whole thing is a one sided fraud and the lemmings fall in line with emotional knee jerk reactions. If it’s really about victims, why aren’t you and they demanding ALL the bad guys go who have done and taught the same things? Why? All they do in the end Is just end up helping more bad guys with even more power and resources to manipulate and deceive.

I don’t do selective one sided justice. I dont do selective outrage. I despise being manipulated and decieved. It’s amazing how many people involved in this political take down are ignoring certain things because of who they like or dislike. And virtue signaling doesn’t work with me. It’s too easy and for shallow people. And they are shutting down people right and left. That’s their MO.

Like I said, either get serious about house cleaning or how about stop protecting the other bad guys who are also guilty of protecting pedophiles! Kenny, I am not impressed with who you knew. You can’t make Mohler/Moore’s Goliath massive power coalition good because Patterson is guilty of the same stuff. He is an admiral in a rowboat compared to them. But that is exactly what this perfectly coordinated and timed political hit is meant to do: Provide cover for evil. No thanks. I don’t do that bidding. Bring it all down.

Mary

Kenny you very obviously know nothing about Lydia if you think she has ever been a Paige Patterson supporter. I haven't seen your name in the SBC blogosphere but Lydia has been around these blogs for years and never supported Patterson. There are still people who want to think Patterson is just a victim of some massive conspiracy from the Calvinist wing. All the evidence seems to be exposing Patterson as just a good old fashioned misogynist. Patterson is not a victim. That doesn't mean that the Calvinist wing isn't taking advantage of or even got the ball rolling in taking down Patterson. Two things can be true here - Patterson is a pig and a man like Russell Moore is taking advantage of the situation to take more control while covering up for Mohler/Mahaney. All the people who are all GURRRL Power rah rah now are the ones who were "Thanking God" for the misogyny of men like Driscoll for years before he fell. Some of us women think all the newfound respect for women is suspect when they've ignored women for so many years and there is absolutely no repentance for their own failings. And then the continued cover-up for Mohler/Mahaney.

Mary

And I'm waiting for The Wartburg Watch to drop the information they've been teasing that is going to implicate David Platt and the IMB in a coverup regarding some sexual abuse situation. We'll see how sincere some who are the loudest "Voices" now are when it's one of their idols implicated in wrongdoing. There's already plenty of information available about CJ Mahaney and SGM and yet no one is demanding that now is the time to lance that infection because Mahaney has friends in high places.

Lydia

“Some of us women think all the newfound respect for women is suspect when they've ignored women for so many years and there is absolutely no repentance for their own failings. And then the continued cover-up for Mohler/Mahaney.”

Bingo. It was certainly coordinated well, too. I can’t stand being manipulated. Maybe I am not emotional enough?

Lydia

“There's already plenty of information available about CJ Mahaney and SGM and yet no one is demanding that now is the time to lance that infection because Mahaney has friends in high places.”

Yes. No coordinated and well timed political hits on Mohler or Moore. Heck, Ben Cole is promoting that wing as “caring about victims”. Time to run, folks. It’s all massive manipulation and deception.

And not one word about Wade outing Klouda without her permission— according to her LEGAL testimony . That’s a victim advocacy no no 101. Even if it worked out for her in the end it’s a HUGE trust issue and says more about Wade than her.. But not ONE word at TWW that this is wrong to do.. He had only one goal and it wasn’t her. But, it’s Wade! The savior of SBC women. He also talked them into helping save JD Halls ministry position after he and his crew of thugs went after 15 year old Braxton Caner on twitter. JD Hall teaches the same misogyny as Patterson did. So why was he worth saving to Wade if he cares so much about women and the misogyny taught in the SBC? Such double standards. Wade is popular with the ladies, though. And it seems can get them to do his bidding. And then there is the scrubbed piece they did on JD Greear where he called us dumb sheep. Scrubbed because some friends did not like it?

In all the years that I have been around the abuse survivor blogs, I have yet to see one that did not eventually descend into this sort of tribal stance and become more and more like that which they rail against. They become like the churches they write about. Secrets, back channels, scrubbed articles, fame, etc. it’s heady stuff but it pays to keep arms length away from others agendas. It seems the more followers the worse it gets. It becomes tribal, virtue signaling and pure emotion. The worse thing they do is team up with people who have agendas beyond victim advocacy 101. Maybe having experience with boots on the ground would help? All they seem to want to do is add more and more layers of bureaucracy and hierarchy to fix problems. It just doesn’t work that way.

Wade is the kind of guy who would advocate for a rape victim, write about it on his blog, then broker an instant repentance deal with the rapist and write about that on his blog. At some point, after all the years of this stuff since 2006, people have to recognize it’s really all about Wade. The last thing an abuse blog needs is a pastor, for crying out loud. This is a guy who taught that God orchestrates it all which means ones rape was for good to come from it. It's a non sequiter. Good doesn’t always come out of suffering. But this is their victim blog pastor and all they can say is that they don’t always agree with him. Sheesh.

Scott Shaver

You just witnessed two female lions ripping off the north end of a south-bound youth minister.

Lydia

Lol. Who was it that said:

I would rather file down the claws of a tiger than teach a sheep to attack.

Kenny (and many others) just don't want to clean the whole house. they want to pretend like it's clean and they got rid of all the dirt.

Mary

Lydia, It's really curious that Ben Cole decided this was the time for him to come back to Baptist Life and Wade has always seemed a little "off" - just a vibe. What I know from my years is that God will not be mocked. We humble ourselves or God will humble us and we probably won't like how He chooses to humble us. I think in God's time there may be some interesting things come out about some of these personalities. Like Ben's racist tweets exposed him. God will not be mocked.

I like Dee and Deb but for discernment bloggers they've been known to show a lack of discernment. I remember when Debbie was their bestest of friends and then she went on a rant about their "antiCalvinism" and they had to ban her. Where do they think Debbie learned her Calvanasty from? Also L's used to post all her nonsense over there and everyone was deceived. I missed whatever happened that got L's banned from there. Now poor dear is stuck gossiping about SBC Today over at Wade's. It's funny how everybody bans her and yet she still thinks it's everyone else who is a problem. I guess she just thinks that's how

But yeah I don't buy Wade's schtick any more than I bought Paige Patterson's - I've known plenty of Patterson types in the SBC and I actually would prefer to deal with someone like Patterson because he is so obvious and out there. My hackles go up with the swarmy smiley lovey dovey types - they are very rarely real or sincere. Sinister is the word that comes to mind. My daughter saw a picture when I was reading twitter and she was like "Eeww" and I just said "Yeah, I know, right" Something off.

Lydia

Mary,

Give me a consistent obvious jerk any day. I know how to avoid and deal with that. At least they are honest about who they are. It's the totalitarian niceness smiling platitidinal manipulative deceivers that scare me the most.

It can take years before you realize it and by that time you are fully invested. The mega world I was in is full of them. I started recognizing patterns/ red flags and learned to trust my instincts when something was "off".

peter lumpkins

Kenny,

Please. Keep both your lectures on morality and name-dropping to yourself. Things like that just dont work here. And if you're the same youth pastor I'm aware of fired fron FBCJ, enough said. And that the Calvinist machine is not gleeful over Patterson's demise is just plain ignorant. If you want to contribute relevant comments, however, be my guest.

With that, I am...
Peter

Lydia

Mary, Maybe Ben wants a gig with the ERLC working toward global UN money for the SBC. I have heard those are six figure jobs with perks.

Kenny St.John

Well, it seems I have stirred up the hen house. So sorry ladies. Please don’t peck all the Calvinists to death just yet. I see where the reason for the firing of Patterson has been published, and, lo and behold, no Calvinists were involved. But, hey, that does not mean Elvis has not been seen in Munich getting a blood transfusion or that the spirit of John Calvin is not behind any of the shenanigans concerning Patterson. Keep looking and connecting the dots. Where there are no dots, just make them up. Non-Calvinists won’t mind I am sure. I am sure that your integrity will soon move you to speak on behalf of the abused victims. After all, you are not hypocrites. Right? I look forward to your statements on missing files. Can you imagine if some 5 pointer was stealing evidence? Do you think maybe the Calvinists somehow “mid-controlled” the SWBTS committee? Goodness, this silliness is too much fun. Well, please remember the victims of Darrell Gilyard. And please, think of the insanity of defending Patterson before you are all embarrassed to the point of no return.

Kenny St.John

This dialouging on Peter’s Page has reminded me of old Ergun Caner. Now that was an anti-Calvinist you could get dehind. He was a trained jihadist who was sent here to carry out jihad. President of theology at Liberty University. Perhaps we should reminisce a little on his influence. Then go back to Darrell Gilyard. Well, I will let others decide that discussion. Just know, I am more than willing to,engage in either topic or none. I kind of hope none.

Kenny St.John

Oh, before someone makes a really improper comment, my daughter was “Miss Liberty” at Liberty University. Dr. Falwell and I knew each other and loved the school.

Mary

Kenny, launching sexist attacks against women because they're not having the conversation you demand they have isn't making you look like you actually care about women who've been victimized by men. Perhaps you could get some help with your reading comprehension because your replies show you completely miss the points being made. Nothing you have written shows an ability to understand the points being made nor a willingness to engage. You simply choose to attack and somehow think you're some authority with all your name dropping.

Mary

Lydia says: "Kenny (and many others) just don't want to clean the whole house. they want to pretend like it's clean and they got rid of all the dirt."

Mary responds: They want to control the conversation because there are plenty of people on twitter who are bringing up Mohler/Mahaney - but we can't have that. Like I've already said it will be interesting to see what happens when TWW drops what they have on Platt/IMB. I'm sure that will get brushed off as not mattering since Platt has resigned and nothing to see here so move along. I doubt Akin and Moore will have as much to say as they have about Patterson.

Larry

Kenny,

Just pretend the comments were written by Larry. Not Lydia. Does that help? :)

Larry

Btw, In case you did not get the memo, They aren’t Calvinists anymore. They are now social justice warriors. They really care, now, with lots of flowery words.

Larry

Dwight wants to nominate complementariam-diva-multimillionaire- commercial- Bible “Scholar”, Beth Moore, as SBC President.

Because she’s a famous girl in the SBC! Girls are cool now.

Wonder if it would come out she gave her adopted child from Russia, back? Probably not because now they can’t be mean to girls, anymore!

I remember a ponderous question from her Abraham study: If you were invited to Sarah’s baby shower,what gift would you take?

Goats or dried figs seem to be the family feud top answers depending on your wealth at the time of said shower.

Problem. Which male would be her authority as she spoke to men? That’s what candidate JD. Greear teaches and practices when he’s not busy “marking” people who disagree with him. Too funny.

peter lumpkins

Kenny,

"Stirred up a hen's nest"? "Pecking order"? Seriously?

Thank you for leaving such an inspirational calling card. Exactly the terms a Driscoll-like misogynist would use.

Once again, however:

a) Name-dropping doesn't succeed here nor will it substitute for actual argument. Nothing is more true or less false because you attach a big name to it. Conservatives usually get this. Liberals, lefties, and loonies usually don't. Hence, stop cluttering up these threads with it.

b) If you're the same youth pastor I'm aware of fired from FBCJ, enough said. Your reputation precedes you forfeiting any moral advice you might lecture us about here. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Lu 6:41, KJV).

With that, I am...
Peter

Lydia

In honor of Kenny and hens, my teen looked up some hen jokes. Here is her favorite:

What happens when hens eat gunpowder? We lay hand gren-eggs!

Btw, is there an academic component to the “Miss Liberty” competition? (Wink)

Robert Vaughn

Kenny and the Hens? Sounds like a rock band.

Oh, no, wait, that was Benny and the Jets.

Max

As I've watched the latest SBC mess unfold, it's become increasingly difficult to determine who the good guys are from the bad guys. There are too many personal and theo-political agendas flying through cyberspace to sort through. A Scripture keeps coming to mind:

"But if you bite and devour one another [in bickering and strife], watch out that you [along with your entire fellowship] are not consumed by one another." (Galatians 5:15 AMP)

A once-great evangelistic denomination is being consumed; brothers are biting one another until they bleed. As a 60+ year member of it (until this year), it's been agonizing to watch.

(P.S., Peter, good to see posting again. Hope all is well with you and yours)

Lydia

Max,

The timing of each hit was interesting, too. Must have taken some serious planning. Wonder if WaPo would write about Mohler/Moore and protecting and promoting Mahaney and his shepherding cult pedophile ring? Sigh.

The comments to this entry are closed.