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Dec 06, 2016

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Les Prouty

Another sad and horrible case of ministerial failure, with devastating consequences for his victims.

peter lumpkins

You are correct, Les. This is devastating for the victims, the victims' families, the churches, and the perp's families. It's also just another obstacle thrown in the way of Conservative Christianity's desire to reach the world for Christ.

Lydia

"I believe in the hopeless moral depravity of all human beings as the Bible clearly teaches, a moral depravity from which no one is able to overcome and be delivered apart from the saving grace of Jesus Christ."

As you know I believe people have a choice in their behavior yet are capable of heinous evil. What confuses me about this statement is that it implies none of the creeps mentioned in the OP chose the saving Grace of Christ.

I do know unbelievers who would rather slash their own wrists than harm a child.

Is one who practices heinous evil or covers it up, at the expense of children, practicing the fruit of salvation-- which is all we have to go on?

peter lumpkins

Hi Lydia. I'm drawing a blank about why the statement you quoted from me is confusing. Could you tease that out a little?

Thanks.

Peter

Les Prouty

Peter, I just found online a news report about this. Looks like he was charged back in November. Question: Is there anything recent? Has he admitted anything?

I'm only asking, need I say not to defend Tom or any child abuser, because as we all know, anyone can make a claim. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that these could be false accusations. I'm not saying they are false. It seems likely to be true though. As I was typing this, I re-read the article. Looks like 5 different children have come forward.

Anyway, have you seen anything since that Nov. 26 news?

Les Prouty

Lydia, I cannot see anything confusing about the part of what Peter wrote that seems to confuse you. It's standard Christian theology.

Max

New Calvinism has released a bunch of flesh babies on the church! Is it too much to ask a pastor to keep his pants on?! While Peter notes that moral depravity exhibited by church leaders crosses the theological spectrum, the distorted "grace" message of New Calvinism is giving these folks more wiggle room to cross boundaries.

Driscoll's potty-mouth and authoritarian abuses should have been clues ... Tullian's over-bleached teeth, fake tan, and womanizing should have been flags ... Mahaney's patronizing and flattering of Mohler should have demonstrated motive ... I'm sure the warnings about Mr. Chantry and his sins were there for those who cared to look.

Max

"To avoid scandal, or rather to handle it rightly when it comes, we need grace from on high ... We may wish to say that such terrible scandals as Driscoll and Tchividjian have perpetrated could never happen under our polity, but as our Presbyterian friends have discovered, they might! In fact, brothers, I would say that they have, only not so publicly." (Tom Chantry)

https://chantrynotes.wordpress.com/2015/09/07/mark-driscoll-tullian-tchividjian-and-reformed-baptist-polity/

peter lumpkins

Les,

You're correct. And thus I tried to use what standard journalism protocol employs in my description verbiage like "reportedly" "allegedly" and "apparently" etc all the while taking seriously the formal indictments. Being "arrested for X" doesn't translate to "guilty as charged of doing X" but given the breadth of the formal complaints by the alleged victims all of whom are apparently independent of one another, and covering various time periods, the local prosecutors certainly concluded the evidence overwhelming. Thus, the present situation seems to me to be very unlike informal accusations made against a man (or woman) for doing X.

I once tried to make a similar point with some of the more vocal people on Twitter who constantly harassed (and still do so far as I know) some high profile SB leaders for "covering up" sexual scandals years ago when there was no concrete evidence available to substantiate the claim. I was verbally beaten back like I was taking sides with pedophiles.

No one is more concerned with children's safety in churches than I have been and remain. Nor would I ever intentionally cover for pedophilic tendencies in workers--paid or otherwise. But we have to be cautious about tarnishing another with informal accusations on one hand and legal indictments with documented evidence on the other. Chantry certainly qualifies for the latter while the other SB leaders I mentioned do not--not the way I see it anyways.

peter lumpkins

BTW, your info is the same as mine-- the Nov piece in the Prescott newspaper is the first mention I found in a very brief search. And I found out about that from "thou art the man" I linked in the OP. To my knowledge, "thou art the man" was the first blogger to log the Tom Chantry indictment. I think that accounts for some of the reason some are claiming either a "cover-up" or at least "crickets" from the Reformed community when one of their icons falls. Janet Mefford, who is unusually reserved but sober and precise in her judgments scolded the Reformed community on Twitter for their obvious silence about this sexual scandal...

Les Prouty

Yes Peter, I think you struck the right chord on this reporting. Multiple allegations independent of each other while not proof, certainly is compelling that there's something there.

And Reformed or not, those in whatever "camp" do no one any good by seeming to sweep this under the rug. Sadly this kind of thing happens. In the Reformed community. We need to call it out where it does happen. Children are more important than image.

Max

Peter writes " ... Driscoll is the moral cream of the crop ..."

Whew! I never thought I would agree with such statement! But in the context of the article and the string of bad-boy-preacher news of late, it fits.

And we wonder why the "Dones" comprise one of the fastest growing Christian groups in America! They aren't done with Jesus, just done with doing church without God.

peter lumpkins

It's true. Indeed the basic principle under-girding "moral cream of the crop" is identical in my own conclusion in voting for Trump as president, something #NeverTrump critics didn;t grasp then and apparently yet to understand.

Max

Peter, it's getting increasingly difficult to raise a national son from the "moral cream of the crop" to the highest office in this land that doesn't have some shame in their background. Heck, the church is having difficulty finding preachers lathered in enough moral cream that is above reproach. We desperately need God's people to repent and pray as they ought to usher in genuine revival and spiritual awakening in our land ... but I don't see much movement in that direction.

Lydia

Peter, I believe we are born in corrupted bodies and on a corrupted earth inclined toward doing wrong. I am a bit confused on 'all being hopelessly morally depraved'. Are you implying they are this whether or not they have committed any morally depraved' actions? It just came off to me as "totally unable".

Not everyone molests kids or protects molesters, murders, rapes, etc. If it takes Christ to refrain from such then why are professing Christians doing such yet many agnostics are not?

A question for the ages?

I came across Chantry many moons ago when reading Challies and other Reformed blogs in the early days of the resurgence. He had a bit of a cult following on some reformed blogs.

Lydia

" Multiple allegations independent of each other while not proof, certainly is compelling that there's something there."

This thinking, found mainly in church circles, is one reason why "individual" victims rarely come forward. And because they dont, that gives time for multiple victims.

The key is to investigate every accusation. Molestation and sexual perversion is rampant. Especially in church situations were perps know people are more trusting and often believe in cheap grace.

Call the authorities. Pastors, elders, etc make the biggest mistake when they think they have the authority to decide what is credible and what isn't.

Always err on the side of the most vulnerable of our society.

Lydia

As to #1, no one has yet to beat the systemic global long time pedophile ring the RCC produced and protected.

Max

Lydia writes "... no one has yet to beat the systemic global long time pedophile ring the RCC produced and protected."

Lydia, Mr. Chantry has addressed this problem:

"faithless men will find their way around any set of rules unless faithful men prevent them from doing so" (Tom Chantry)

When one looks back on the messages of failed ministers, a common thread emerges ... they preached aggressively 'against' the very sins they were in! Remember Ted Haggard?

Les Prouty

Lydia,

"This thinking, found mainly in church circles, is one reason why "individual" victims rarely come forward. And because they dont, that gives time for multiple victims.

The key is to investigate every accusation. Molestation and sexual perversion is rampant. Especially in church situations were perps know people are more trusting and often believe in cheap grace.

Call the authorities. Pastors, elders, etc make the biggest mistake when they think they have the authority to decide what is credible and what isn't."

We don't disagree. And I'm sure you agree that an accusation of this or any sort is not always automatically "guilty!" Ask the Duke boys.

peter lumpkins

Thanks Lydia.

You're presumably asking if I'm implying from my understanding of human moral depravity that it exists "whether or not they have committed any morally depraved' actions?" Yes, I am implying this. That's precisely what I believe the Scripture to teach in so many places. No one outside Jesus Christ avoids this morally depraved state.

The difference between this view and the classical Calvinist understanding stands or falls on one's view of the comprehensive effects of the fall; that is, what Adam's descendants inherited from him in consequence of sin's curse upon the human race. For classic Calvinists, all Adam's posterity inherited both a sinful nature and sinful guilt. Dissenters (of which I and presumably you) reject the latter but accept the former. We're all born with a sinful nature but are not sinfully guilty until we personally trespass against God's law (BTW, this is why we may absolutely affirm all infants dying in infancy will be in heaven).

I think what I'm saying squares perfectly with Adam Harwood, and before him a multitude of Southern Baptist theologians.

And yes, "total inability" is implied in my words-- "a moral depravity from which no one is able to overcome and be delivered..."--because I affirm it's taught in Scripture. But unlike our Calvinist kin, the inability of which I speak and believe the Scripture to teach is the total inability to save and/or deliver one's self from sin and its consequences, rather than be particularly wed to the notion of whether the will is free or unfree.

"Not everyone molests kids or protects molesters, murders, rapes, etc. If it takes Christ to refrain from such then why are professing Christians doing such yet many agnostics are not?" I think the question may be moot in light of what I stated above, but feel free to press further if you don't think it follows.

Thanks Lydia...

Lydia

Les,

One of the reasons many pedophiles have anywhere from 50-100 victims is because untrained adults did not think an allegation was credible or the child was scared or did not know how to communicate the grooming and felt responsible. How can such a good man my parents trust be doing something bad? It is insidious. It really helps to listen to victim grooming stories to understand. Molesters are master con's and live a long con. Masters of deception. The more important they are, especially in ministry, the less likely the victims even tell an adult until they are adults and can process it. Fear of not being believed is that major reason children tell no one and suffer in silence. an investigation is not an indictment. Everyone deserves a trial. It is a very hard charge to prove.

We don't get to decide what is credible to investigate. It is one of the most long term deceptive and destructive crimes out there.

Even those with multiple counts and convictions rarely serve life sentence. That is how our society views the value of the most vulnerable.

Lydia

Peter, thanks for the clarification. I see the difference now that you explained guilt. I lean more Pelagian (wink). I think both nature and and nurture play a part. I tend to see things through a good/evil lens and believe we have free will to choose to do either with developed brains, of course.

Les Prouty

Lydia, we don't disagree. You said, "We don't get to decide what is credible to investigate." I agree. Investigate. But let's not convict in the court of public opinion simply because an allegation is made. Again, for high profile example, see Duke.

peter lumpkins

Lydia,

Not sure you're "Pelagian" because we possess morally free will, a position I strongly advocate, and I'm no Pelagian!

Lydia

"It's true. Indeed the basic principle under-girding "moral cream of the crop" is identical in my own conclusion in voting for Trump as president, something #NeverTrump critics didn;t grasp then and apparently yet to understand. "

Exactly!!!!

The moral free will/responsible discussion is way off topic. So I apologize. When I see it applied to all humans in a post on a long time child molester, it concerns me so I ask. I see a difference in something like the heinous barbarity of the most vulnerable of our society for sexual gratification.

Lydia

'e don't get to decide what is credible to investigate." I agree. Investigate. But let's not convict in the court of public opinion simply because an allegation is made.""

Who was convicting? The public will always discuss what is in the news. Good luck on the shaming.

Les Prouty

"Who was convicting? The public will always discuss what is in the news. Good luck on the shaming."

Who said people WERE convicting? 1) No such thing as luck and 2) who is shaming? What in the world are you accusing me of doing?

Lydia

Les, you wrote:

" But let's not convict in the court of public opinion simply because an allegation is made. Again, for high profile example, see Duke."

Who was convicting?

Les Prouty

Right Lydia. We agree. Isn't that nice.

Eric O

Is Peter and folks here making a connection between Calvinist and molestation? As though him being a "Calvinist" has anything to do with the crime. Do you know the percentage of Non Calvinist "leaders" who have been guilty vs Calvinist?

David Charles

Has pastor Chantry been convicted?

Scott Shaver

..."As though him being a 'Calvinist' has anything to do with the crime."

In that nuance, and as it has been commented on repeatedly in such online discussions, the "Calvinism" may not have had "anything to do with the crime", but the ecclesiastic structure of "Calvinism" may have something to do with enabling repeat offenders.

A hypothesis certainly worth testing.

Eric O

Scott,
I see.
Research how many non Calvinist leaders have had sexual sins exposed and that may provide the answer.

peter lumpkins

Eric says, "Is Peter and folks here making a connection between Calvinist and molestation? As though him being a "Calvinist" has anything to do with the crime. Do you know the percentage of Non Calvinist "leaders" who have been guilty vs Calvinist?"

For my part, I cannot understand the relevance of your concern. I visibly traveled the second verbal mile in avoiding such a perception of connection by explicitly denying it:

"Know also that while the four men mentioned above have theological Calvinism in common, we cannot legitimately deduce that Calvinism per se leads to moral failure. It would not be difficult to produce a list of clergy spanning the entire theological spectrum of Christian belief whether denominational or independent, Liberal or Fundamentalist who have morally failed.

Eric O


Peter,
Apologies, You are correct. I was focused on the "headline" and should have factored your quote above. Or more importantly, I should have carefully read your post.

peter lumpkins

No problem, Eric. Lord bless...

Max

The Wartburg Watch reports that "Tom Chantry Has Been Arrested and Is Now Jailed in Arizona."

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/12/22/tom-chantry-has-been-arrested-and-is-now-jailed-in-arizona/

Nothing surprises me any more.

Cathy Mickels

Peter,

I am trying to get in touch with you so this posting has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I have been researching Russell Moore and his left wing politics for some time. This guy is trouble for the church and the nation.

Warm regards,
Cathy

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