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Oct 10, 2016

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Kyle B. Gulledge

Peter:
I don't believe a man as smart as Al Mohler is supposed to be is wrong on evangelicals regarding this issue as much as he and his little sidekick, Russ Moore are doing their best to frame and manipulate the votes of evangelicals.
Their little self-righteous group have to insure that Trump loses or else it proves that Moore has no influence over evangelicals in general and Southern Baptists in particular. And if that happens, Moore has no power or influence in Washington. I believe this is all more about a desperate attempt for self preservation for Moore than anything else, at this point.

Jesse Lott

Peter,

I agree with you on Trump. Tough vote to cast, but I think it is the only vote we can cast given the choices we have.

Scott Shaver

Laughable is the thought that AL Mohler and Russell Moore combined have any "influence" with voters of any stripe beyond their cadre of followers in the SBC.

Furthermore, would be interesting to know what even that devoted group of mindless followers actually executes behind the ballot box curtain in the upcoming election.

Mohler's been getting it wrong for years. The younger sidekick, in a few years, has gotten very little right.

What's up with Moore by the way? For somebody who made a big public issue out of not wanting to be referred to as an "evangelical" anymore, he's using the label more now for himself than ever before.

If you've left camp, demonstrate it. If you haven't left camp, please stop whining or you're welcome to "leave" again.

Too bad we don't have any Junior High School locker room or bus-ride audio recordings of Moore and Mohler.

By the way, there's nothing tough about casting a vote unless you consider standing in line for a while bothersome. Simply pull the lever for the candidate which best lines up with what you'd like to see the country accomplish and cross your fingers the vote tallies haven't been "dabbled" with to service nationwide political gerrymandering.

Only two choices on this one. For or Against Hillary Clinton extending from 8 to 12 years the Obama gutter-slide blues.

Tain't rocket science nor heresy.

Scott Shaver

It appears that the fabric of American politics has been reconditioned by Hollywood, reality TV and organized crime. That's why I find it bizarre that politicians, preachers and political pundits now want to express horror over the crude expressions proceeding from fallen human nature that each and every critic has doubtless engaged in himself/herself at least once at some point during his/her tenure on the planet.

All that's missing for proof are the audio recordings.

Alex Guggenheim

As the detective once said in a movie to a nurse who was trying to protect the privacy of a patient and their conversation with another person visiting, you can either protect their privacy and not help us catch a murderer or you can help us catch a murderer but you can't do both."

In this case to people like Al Mohler and Russ Moore, I say:

You can posture with moral outrage and make youself the preeminent concern and thus, enable Hillary Clinton to be elected or you can lay aside your self-aggrandizing ego massaging long enough to make this about the nation and thus, protect the nation from Hillary Clinton, but you can't do both.

I'm my view, the diminutive behavior of both men is simply appalling. They wouldn't last a minute in any military engagement and like schoolboy cucks, would run home as fast as they could to save themselves from a commander who smoked cigars and enjoyed watching the enemy die.

Narcissism disguised as piety.

Scott Shaver

Russell Moore has a greater fascination with television cameras pointed in his direction than he has concern for fellow "evangelicals' or "The Church" in general for that matter.

He now claims that 2016 "has done more damage to the credibility of Christianity than Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggart. Personally, I would add Moore to his own list of detractors from evangelical credibility.

This guy shoots off his mouth and from the hip just like Trump, but unlike Trump, he's seldom accurate. Trump has him pegged perfectly..."A terrible representative of evangelicals".

He should head up Hillary Clinton's "pastoral advisory committee"

Scott Shaver

Mohler says it's impossible now for Christians to vote Trump?

He should test his hypothesis on election day by counting and documenting the number of his friends, fellow church-members and Christian neighbors who will exactly what HE SAYS THEY CAN'T.

He's also a good candidate for Clinton's pastoral advisory committee. M ohler and Moore should team up in this capacity.

Would be interesting to hear recordings if they exist of Moore and Mohler in their Jr. High and High School locker room days.
Kinda get the feeling both of these guys probably had notes from home/doctor excusing them from having to dress out for P.E.

JND

I'm voting Libertarian, as I did in 1980.

It's an easy choice. Trump will carry Texas no matter how I vote.

Scott Shaver

No disrespect to your right to vote any way you want, JND.

However, can't say much for the logic and wonder how Libertarians will fare under a ClintonFoundation/Governmnet complex?

You've got a good out being in Texas though if your religious sensitivities exclude you from choosing the lesser of two "evils".

Looks like the value of "voting conscience" to the American collective as a whole only applies in states that Trump carries.

Max

"Trump’s horrifying statements, heard in his own proud voice, revealed an objectification of women ..." (Al Mohler)

Does anyone else think that sounds a bit hypocritical, considering Dr. Mohler's complementarian view of female believers? There are other wrong ways to treat women as objects, than what DT had in mind. Many women ensnared in arrogant patriarchal systems find their predicament horrifying ... all the more so when it is in church!

Max

I'm still praying about the election. Out of 320 million Americans, is this the best we can come up with?! It's becoming darn near impossible to find a Presidential candidate that doesn't have some sort of shame in their background. I guess I should be praying more diligently for revival than the election. America is in a mess because the church is a mess.

Mark

JND,,

No one here will think less of you for Voting your conscious but make no mistake, a Republican Capitalist or a Democratic Progressive Socialist will get elected,,

Sometimes I find it difficult to see Evangelicals getting involved in Politics because many Evangelicals don't agree and have Spiritual and Political views that are contradicting.

I personally think that is why I don't like Evangelical Leaders exposing their views,, they don't agree and spread confusion to their followers.

One thing is certain is the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion,, and whoever wins this election we know it will either be a Dem or Pub. And the power they have will be power that the Holy Spirit allowed them to have.

If there is such a thing as the lesser of two evils, I'm voting the lesser.

It is complicated,, before it was pretty cut and dry,, Conservative, Moderate and Liberal,,

Trump is a moderate and embraces Free Markets, strong military mind, Pro Israel and less Gov't. Clinton is a far left Liberal and leans Socialist and more Gov't control and hates the military and leans less with Israel compared to Trump,,

The one thing that is seriously being over-looked is Free Market Capitalism vs Progressive Socialism.

I'm voting for the candidate that embraces the Free Markets.

Morally speaking, if Trump defended a rapist and scrutinized the victim and smiled the same as Hillary did, Trump would never have even won the Republican nomination.. The Media is giving Hillary the benefit of doubt, on every single level of moral decay in her track record.

I want someone strong,,, I see weakness in every candidate except Trump..

Ted Cruz who I think is one of the most decent leaders we have is supporting Trump for the same reasons why I'm supporting Trump.

Now voting your conscious may have benefit if it ignites a movement in the long term,, which in my opinion may be too late because our nation's Federal Reserve and Pro-Growth Economic issues need a cleansing now. And a Dem will create a stronger footprint of becoming a Socialist State.

In my view this election it will come down to lean more Capitalism vs. or lean more Socialism and God will always be in charge,,

Scott Shaver

Mark:

Good thoughts IMO.

The only thing I would add is that the Russell Moore/Albert Mohler brand of evangelicals are so ethereal-minded they're no EARTHLY GOOD.

Especially when it comes to politics and world reality.

Scott Shaver

Speaking of "horrifying voices" Max, when will Mohler ever shut up and start preaching the gospel.

Have been listening to his arrogant, egocentric quasi-religious commentary on culture for 30 years.

enough is enough already.

Scott Shaver

You want the greatest "spiritual" commentary we have on today's spineless leaders of the "evangelical movement" in America?

Daniel Akin brags on Twitter that all profs at all these "leading evangelical seminaries" are "NEVER TRUMP".

Hey Joe in the pew, do you really think they give a rat's rear-end about your future either on earth or with God?

eric

Scott,
You were a pastor ...right?
I encourage you to have a moment of clarity.
How does Jesus want us to treat each other?
Do you think Jesus is pleased with your hatred of Mohler?
Mohler has every right to express his opinion, just like you.
Give yourself a break and stop listening to him.

For all Christian, This really isn't an easy decision to make. I tend to agree with the points Peter makes in this post.

Trump has lied, so many times, about so many things (simple things), whose to know what in the world he will do if given the power. I am a hard line conservative and I'm honestly wondering if Clinton could do less harm than Trump.


The Main issue that has me leaning to trump is the Courts.
Trump is only for 4 years....the judges are for life. That's a huge issue. Clinton will stack the deck with liberals.

So while Scott and Peter and Max have crystal clarity on what is the right and wrong thing to do. For others, not so easy.


Scott Shaver

Don't give me this "you were", " I am" bull.

Grow up. Get real. Get a job.

Scott Shaver

It's not about the "lies" Eric. It's about the platforms.

Simple, grammar school logic in the face of immovable constraints.

Scott Shaver

You Eric, Hillary, Trump and all others including yours truly have "lied".

Mark

Eric,,

If you consider a response I wrote to JND @ Posted by: Mark | Oct 11, 2016 at 01:56 PM

I hope it will give you a little more clarity as there is a lot more at stake besides the Supreme Court.


Scott Shaver

And, Eric, I would add that if you're currently "a pastor"....kinda feel sorry for the folks over 40 in your congregation. Or perhaps they just have a longer sense of humor than I do :)

Max

" ... start preaching the gospel ... enough is enough already."

Scott, I wish Southern Baptists preached as much as they debate. Debating theology is not preaching the Gospel.

eric

Mark, I don't disagree with you, good points.

Scott...."Love you man"

Max. Reformed Baptist agree that debating theology is not preaching the Gospel. Less debate and more evangelism.

Scott: "get a job"....really? at least you didn't
tell me to come up out of my basement :)

Scott Shaver

Hey Eric, one parting shot.

Love the way you play the cultural-socialmedia-cablenews playbook.

Case in point: "Your hatred for Mohler".

Obviously your juvenile mind can't distinguish "hatred" from perpetual disagreement and disdain.

That failure to communicate is your problem. Not the that of others who comment.

Scott Shaver

Max:

Can you imagine with the polished rhetoric of Mohler how good he would be if he simply preached the gospel instead of alienating half the world along with half of U.S. Christians and even 1/2 of "Southern Baptists" (whatever they are anymore).

Scott Shaver

Pete Lumpkins posts are few and far between these days....but absence makes the heart grow fonder if not altogether lonesome in Southern Baptist life.

Scott Shaver

Eric:

Have to "love you too man"

Dont' have to like you.

eric

Scott,
I suspect you know what the biblical definition of hating your brother is. This point is ultimately between you and your Lord.

I agree that a failure to communicate is a problem (in general)for myself and others.Civil discussion can overcome much of that failure thru civil back and forth which can help weed out what is really being said.

We all should have a heart of learning to communicate with each other in a Christ centered way.


Scott Shaver

Eric. Me and "my Lord" are good on both point and substance with this one.

Thanks for your "brotherly" concern.

Mark

Guys,

Truthfully, I think Evangelicals being so split in their Doctrinal Ideologies,, I think it actually hurts candidates like Ted Cruz.

We know where he stands, that should've been enough,, he didn't need to try and court the Southern Baptist or any other Faith based Evangelicals. He needed to be focused on real Pro-Growth issues.

It hurts his ability to reach the more neutral based job growing and fiscal thinking conservatives.

Evangelicals are politically split even within the Republican Party,,

Every election cycle there are 4 or 5 Republican candidates that are verbally colliding in less than Christian manners trying to get the Christian vote hoping to be identified as the most Christian for guys like Mohler.

It is embarrassing to watch the way media is reporting it,, Dems are laughing.

I wish Mohler would keep his opinions to himself.

Scott Shaver

Eric: In this day, really it doesn't pay to let anything by.

You say, "We should all learned to communicate with each other in a Christ-centered way".

"Christ-centered" has become subject to cultural and factional interpretation.

You, Eric, have no capability to define for me what "Christocentric" communication actually has for substance.

Not looking at Christ through the prism of John Calvin, Al Mohler or Rodney Dangerfield of Southern Baptist Ethics, Russell Moore.

Scott Shaver

With all respect Mark:

Cruz was my unspoken favorite dark horse.

Because of his immaturity and failure to help the cause at crucial point....wouldn't votre for him now as a dog catcher in Montgomery County Texas but would definitely put on the Supreme Court.

He's academic not practical and he has the timing in recent political scenarios of Barney Fife.

Robert Vaughn

I won’t be voting for Trump, but am voting third party. Nevertheless I understand my Christian friends who are voting for him. One friend recently pointed out that he does not vote for a president based on how good a person he or she might be, but rather whether he thinks that person will be able to lead in accomplishing the basic purpose of government set forth in the Scriptures. For example, Roman 13:3-4 says one of the great duties of authority is to keep evil in check. He believes Trump will do that better than Clinton. I can respect that even if I don't respect Trump.

I think it is sad that many Christians are in such a turmoil and inflamed at one another over what one must ultimately decide upon his or her own conscience.

Max

Scott wrote "Can you imagine with the polished rhetoric of Mohler how good he would be if he simply preached the gospel ..."

"And when I came to you, brothers and sisters, proclaiming to you the testimony of God [concerning salvation through Christ], I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom [no lofty words of eloquence or of philosophy as a Greek orator might do]; for I made the decision to know nothing [that is, to forego philosophical or theological discussions regarding inconsequential things and opinions while] among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified [and the meaning of His redemptive, substitutionary death and His resurrection]." (1 Corinthians 2:1-2 AMP)

Do you reckon seminary presidents can preach like that?!

Max

Eric wrote "So while Scott and Peter and Max have crystal clarity on what is the right and wrong thing to do. For others, not so easy."
Ahh, I wish it were that easy Eric. Speaking on behalf of Brothers Scott and Peter and myself:

"At present we are men looking at puzzling reflections in a mirror. The time will come when we shall see reality whole and face to face! At present all I know is a little fraction of the truth, but the time will come when I shall know it as fully as God now knows me!" (1 Cor 13:12 Phillips)

Oh what a glorious day that will be! No theological debates in heaven!! What a wonderful day that will be when my Jesus I shall see and He will tell like it is, as it is already recorded in Scripture for those who hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church.

Eric

Thanks Max, good words

Eric

Forgive me if I have missed it along this line of responses or other places. But, what position are Mohler and Moore advocating? Are they Abstaining from the Ballot box, writing in a candidate or choosing another "evil?" Serious question. I can't outright find what they are going to do. Tired of trying to read between the Lines.

Max

Eric asks "what position are Mohler and Moore advocating?"

Mohler has implied that he will be abstaining from the ballot box. Moore will be writing in a candidate. See video link at: https://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2016/07/albert-mohler-russell-moore-donald-trump-christians-voting/

Scott Shaver

In other words, they'd sacrifice the economic and constitutional welfare of their brethren on the altar of misguided principles, or at least an eschewed understanding of history?

Scott Shaver

Mohler and Trump on equal footing it appears. Mohler says Trump below baseline standards of acceptance among evangelcals...so is Mohler.

Lydia

In addition to what you wrote in your OP, we must attempt to put the brakes n the Clinton penchant for helping global/government conglomerates own so much of America whether it is Uranium mining or shipping ports. They give to her foundation for access. We must also put the brakes on the multinationals using a bastardized new version of the H1B visa to import foreign workers that dusplace Americans. They are literally displacing American. In fact, American workers are told they must train them for 90 days to get their severance. This is a big program in the tech industry. Is it because we don't have workers? Nope. It is because they can pay them less and not pay social security taxes on them. It is so the stockholders get more money. When Disney is in on this. The Clinton foundation receives large donations for these insourcing firms from India and other countries.

Hillary is all about global business and our lack of Sovereignty as a nation. Now that Americans have been conditioned to look to the president to provide jobs, its all too easy. What they dont want are tons of small to medium sized stable and secure businesses because they are not easy to control. So they regulate them to death.

A populace dependent on an oligharchical governments relationship to global conglomerates is easier to control. We are nearly there in totality.

Lydia

"One friend recently pointed out that he does not vote for a president based on how good a person he or she might be, but rather whether he thinks that person will be able to lead in accomplishing the basic purpose of government set forth in the Scriptures. For example, Roman 13:3-4 says one of the great duties of authority is to keep evil in check. He believes Trump will do that better than Clinton. I can respect that even if I don't respect Trump."

This sort of thing always confuses me as if scripture was written with a representative republic democracy in mind. You ARE the government (are supposed to be) in our system as it was designed and amended for inclusion of all adult citizenship. Something not even considered in the era of Scripture was written.

If people were taught this and understood it whether Christian or not, perhaps we would have better candidates?

Lydia

"Trump’s horrifying statements, heard in his own proud voice, revealed an objectification of women ..." (Al Mohler)

Does anyone else think that sounds a bit hypocritical, considering Dr. Mohler's complementarian view of female believers? There are other wrong ways to treat women as objects, than what DT had in mind. Many women ensnared in arrogant patriarchal systems find their predicament horrifying ... all the more so when it is in church!"

Or Mohlers choice to partner with Acts 29/Mark Driscoll the horribly misogynistic and vulgarian Neo Cal "pastor"! Think of all the young men Mohler influenced by promoting Driscoll as godly! What a hypocrite!

Lydia

"
I don't believe a man as smart as Al Mohler is supposed to be is wrong on evangelicals regarding this issue as much as he and his little sidekick, Russ Moore are doing their best to frame and manipulate the votes of evangelicals.
Their little self-righteous group have to insure that Trump loses or else it proves that Moore has no influence over evangelicals in general and Southern Baptists in particular. And if that happens, Moore has no power or influence in Washington. I believe this is all more about a desperate attempt for self preservation for Moore than anything else, at this point."

Kyle has nailed it. Moore over reached early on They all know it and are now trying to play the neutral card with warnings about our conscience.

It was always about Moores place in the DC establishment. There are no strict party lines in DC so being accepted by the establishment is all it takes. Moore lost influence but my guess is after the election he will find a way to change the subject with his ERLC position to speak FOR the SBC and get media time with his new pet issues. Won't be the patriarchy pet issue he used at SBTS, though. That one does not play in the media.

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