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Jul 25, 2016

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Phillip Miller

You castigate Moore with these words, "Unfortunately, Moore offers us no evidence whatsoever that any of the above is an imminent threat. Unfortunately, Moore offers us no evidence whatsoever that any of the above is an imminent threat." Then you follow up with a summary question,"Why do so many young evangelicals hate America so much?" But you also offer no instances where anyone, let alone young evangelicals, are saying that they hate America. What gives?

peter lumpkins

Yes, I criticize Moore for his continued harping on stronger immigration policies for US borders based upon the skewed rhetoric he produces as to why stronger policies are necessary. They are not necessary simply because someone happens to be Muslim; I know of no one off hand who argues otherwise. If you do, please produce the goods and we'll reconsider.

As for the follow-up question, it was not meant for just Moore but for any number of young evangelicals. About every summer around July 4th, or even earlier at Memorial Day, one will hear many young evangelicals decrying the church celebrating the country, many of whom proclaim it's nothing more than idol worship. Others deem it "civil religion" not to mention Moore himself more than once celebrating the vanishing "Bible belt" which he also terms "cultural Christianity" not real Christianity.

Jeff Miller

Courtesy of 3 very simple Google searches, we have the current Republican presidential nominee discussing the virtue of--

Shutting down mosques: http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/16/politics/donald-trump-paris-attacks-close-mosques/

Closing borders to Muslims: http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/07/politics/donald-trump-muslim-ban-immigration/

Requiring the registration of Muslims into a National Database (which is not identical to, but what I assume is what Moore is referring to with the ID Cards): http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/11/20/donald-trump-says-hed-absolutely-require-muslims-to-register/?_r=0

We can quibble about whether this constitutes "calling for" these measures, and one could argue that referencing these things in the Moore post itself would have strengthened it. But I think to act like Moore is pulling these things out of his backside out of some kind of hatred of America is to ignore reality.

peter

Hi Jeff,

Yes and a simple Google search will also reveal dozens of statements clarifying the ban was not "simply because they were Muslims" as Moore indicated, nor was it I tended for all Muslims period. Rather it was due to protecting our borders from radicalized Islamists, a function of our govt. and woefully neglected for 2 or more decades.
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/donald-trump-muslim-ban-2016-6

Jeff Miller

Just speaking for myself, I don't accept the statement that he only proposes to ban Muslims from terror states as a valid "clarification" of "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on", which is what the press statement from his campaign said. The statements say different things. One can buy that he had a true and sincere change of heart and mind, but I do not accept the statement made in the Business Insider article you cited as a legitimate "clarification" of the original stance. The original statement is, in my mind, unmistakably targeting religion.

I sincerely appreciate your engagement with me, Peter. May our Lord continue to bless your work.

peter lumpkins

I think it's relatively the same as it would be supposing Dr. Moore made a statement that called for either discussion or clarification--which he in fact produced--but I nonetheless criticized *only* his original statement never mentioning or accounting for his clarification statement. I'm wondering how fair people would think I was being with Dr. Moore.

Thanks for sharing your views Jeff.

Scott Shaver

Why do so many young evangelicals hate America? A big part of it has been your public education dollars at work along with tenure for for a bunch of college profs and academics breaking hard left at every new cultural wave.

Moore would have made a great carpet-bagger but they don't like to talk about that part of their "historical" narrative.

If selling books and endless symposiums is the future of "evangelicals" ala Moore, under the banner of Christianized cultural Marxism, I'm vey glad to wear the label of civil religionist or worse from these blow-hards.

Alex Guggenheim

Islam is not just a religion. It is a detail political and social doctrine which is antithetical to our unique freedoms.

Lydia

One thing guys like Moore never consider is how refuges get here and how our system operates. Maybe they don't know? The UN vets then the Feds pay NGOs like Catholic charities to settle them. It is big money and is a big job creator for Catholic charities and other NGO's. The states have very little say in the entire process. It is all based on federal monies which pays for living arrangements, etc.

But here is the real kicker. The NGOs are under no obligation whatsoever to share information with the FBI and other agencies that track potential problems. Everyone assumes the UN have done a thorough job. Frankly that is impossible which I have witnessed firsthand.

The process has been a disaster in Europe.

Lydia

"Islam is not just a religion. It is a detail political and social doctrine which is antithetical to our unique freedoms."

This. Is. It.

I am also of the view that many young evangelicals do you hate America in the sense they have fallen in love with determinism and collectivism. Islam is a more obvious variation of determinism. Both are very authoritarian. both seek to control people . Determinism does not go very well with our constitution which focuses on self government.

Lydia

Based upon some projects that I have been working on the last several years I have seen firsthand what illegal immigration has done to the infrastructure of our schools and to the children of illegals. It is a complete disaster. One thinks that we are doing such a compassionate service by educating their children. But what they may not realize is that they really don't keep their children in school for long. These children are constantly plucked in and out of school. Sometimes it's for six months and sometimes even a year where they cannot be tracked at all in an educational sense . There is no valuing of education and it shows. ( and I am not suggesting they are getting a great one in public school, anyway)

There is really nothing that can be done about this until we do something about our borders. The fact of the matter is most often these children are plucked out of schools to make the trek back and forth to Mexico. I would not have seen this as a big problem until I saw the stats and was blown away. I had no idea our borders were even that fluid or that so many could afford such a trek so often until I saw the stats for Mexican Heroin dependence that is absolutely devastating even small towns here. The pervasiveness of this problem is only just being known. Even rural M.Es are starting to speak out about all the deaths in small towns due to the Mexican heroin trade.

Scott Shaver

This Elijah is just not going to work.

Breaking hard Kubayah left on national security is not an "Oh-Well pardon my mistake" kind of aftermath.

Why do young evangelicals hate America? Why does Russell Moore hate Southern Baptists?

Lydia

Loving Liberty is not the same as supporting the promotion of Sharia. It is Theo political. As a female, guys like Russ Moore scare me to death.

Max

Moore's rhetoric has an anti-Trump slant to it. He is probably upset that Trump didn't select him for his "Evangelical Executive Advisory Board" ... but, instead, chose his predecessor Richard Land.

Trump's evangelical advisors certainly span the range of doing church in America:

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/trump-campaign-announces-evangelical-executive-advisory-board

If My People, Then Will I ... but will we?

Max

"Why do so many young evangelicals hate America so much?"

A complex question that also reflects on what young evangelicals think about the American church. In SBC ranks, Generation Xers and Millennials have watched their parents and grandparents feud over everything from the color of the carpet to the color of the preacher! They've attended churches with prayerless pulpits and pews and seen the "people of God" wrangling in church business meetings with weeping and gnashing of teeth. They've observed more church folks showing up for potluck dinners than prayer meetings. As youth, they were served pizza and bowling parties to keep them occupied, rather than discipleship in the Word. After 60+ years of observing this nonsense, I can't really blame young folks for venturing out in search of God after doing church without Him for so many years. Unfortunately, New Calvinism with its aberrations came along to draw them deeper into religion and not relationship with Christ. We just need a good dose of revival and spiritual awakening, but we ain't going to get it until God's people (not America) humble themselves, pray, turn from 'their' wicked ways, and seek God's face. Until then, we will continue to lose our youth to the whims of the age ... hating both America and the condition of the American church.

Lydia

Max, I think Moore was counting on being a player in the Rubio establishment. I think he would prefer Hillary over Trump for the same selfish reasons many Republicans in Congress prefer her. She is establishment and they have more leverage than with an outsider.

Lydia

On another note concerning their hatred of America. I first encountered this about 17 years ago when some young family members, after college, went to work and study with Piper. They happened to come home for a visit around the 4th of July holiday. Beside the typical know-it-all arrogance that none of their family had correct doctrine (including those who had paid for their very expensive education) they exhibited a total disdain for celebrating America's birth. It was just a simple Backyard BBQ and pool party with sparklers. One would have thought we were the Taliban celebrating our conquest of Afghanistan. Piper managed to turn young minds full of mush against their family.

Most of us were just trying to make it a pleasant visit so we played it down. If I had to do over again it would go very differently. Expecially as they totally disrespected their precious grandparents who had labored in Ministry in the inner city for 25 years. The irony is they no longer live in America but a quasi Muslim country where they live better than anyone around them and are constantly trolling us Americans for money while they export Calvin. The irony is interesting since Piper really sells Chrislam.

Scott Shaver

Increasingly looks as if American "civil religion" in the SBC is not among the worst villains we face.

Scott Shaver

Its not just "young evangelicals" who've bought into this "America is bad concept".

Dave Miller at Voices is an old grey mule and he sounds just like one of em. Here's a guy who's let his mouth paint him into a corner where he cannot participate (vote) in the upcoming election.

However, he's so obsessed with the idea of whining over "not voting" that he can't quit writing eschewed opinion pieces on the subject in which he basically argues without ceasing that he's the most principled man on the planet. If "sickening" is not the word "COWARDLY" will certainly suffice.

Why can't he just "shut-up" about issues he's too holy to get involved with?

Lydia

Now Scott, we can't have negative truths. It's all about unity now. (Wink)

What scares me the most about all of it is how independent thinking and freedom of conscious, even over, political matters has become a sin in the SBC. The Thought Reform and authoritarianism is out of control.

Joshua Kelso

I suppose I am still young enough (33) to speak on behalf of some of the "young evangelicals who hate America", simply to ask why so many older evangelicals believe I am required to love it. I find it hard to love a country that is so clearly under the wrath of God. I'm sure Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel were all accused of being unpatriotic too, but like them I'm too fearful of God to display open allegiance and affection to a nation so clearly under God's judgement. We have a Supreme Court who profain marriage and protect the murder of innocent babies. Our next president will be one of two people who show utter distain for righteousness. I have no desire to celebrate a nation like that. I still pray for my birth country, and obey it's laws, and ask God to bring repentance and not wrath. But frankly, my affection is better spent on other things. When a nation turns from Him, they are judged. My allegiance is not to America, but to a Kingdom that is still to come. America is just one of the nations that will be crushed into dust when Christ sets up His Kingdom on earth. So that's the nation I will love instead.

peter lumpkins

"I suppose I am still young enough (33) to speak on behalf of some of the "young evangelicals who hate America", simply to ask why so many older evangelicals believe I am required to love it. I find it hard to love a country that is so clearly under the wrath of God."

Thanks, Joshua, for displaying thus far the most contorted understanding of a believer's relationship with our fellow creatures proving my concern expressed in the OP had teeth after all. Asking why one is required to love a country that is so clearly under God's wrath is like asking why one should love one's neighbor who is clearly under God's wrath. To think otherwise is to contradict our Lord's teaching in the Great Commandment and shirk our Lord's commandment in the Great Commission.

To find it hard to love unbelieving people who are clearly under the wrath of God shows the cards of one's heart I'm afraid.

I'd think that through a little bit more before concluding you're not required to love what's clearly under God's wrath...

Lydia

Either/or thinking. Either one hates it or one wraps themselves in the flag and worships it, right? Such.a stifling and limited approach. But then, Islam does the same. Even on some of the same issues. Sigh.

eric

If more young folks are thinking this way, where do you think it is coming from. While i don't "hang out" with the younger crowd, I've not heard this type talk in my circles. Is it promoted and spread on the net or am i just not attune to what the young folks are talking
about these days?

Joshua Kelso

"Asking why one is required to love a country that is so clearly under God's wrath is like asking why one should love one's neighbor who is clearly under God's wrath. To think otherwise is to contradict our Lord's teaching in the Great Commandment and shirk our Lord's commandment in the Great Commission."

No, because a person is not the same as a political nation state. Nation states aren't made in the image of God. I'm commanded to love my neighbor, I'm only commanded to live at peace with the authorities God has put under me.

It really concerns me that you don't seem able to differentiate between loving a country and loving your fellow man. Jesus told believers to flee to the hills when they saw destruction coming, not stand and fight for their country. I'm assuming you would have ignored this and died fighting the Romans in AD 70 instead of fleeing and continuing the testimony of the church elsewhere?

@Lydia - I'm not sure what your point is. I never said I hated America. I did ask why I should love it. Chapter & verse perhaps, instead of Non Sequiturs about Islam?

Scott Shaver

I would note want to have to have to share a fox-hole with either Eric or Joshua.......regardless of the cause for which we might be fighting.

Perhaps they can name a country of the world that is not "under God's wrath"according to their definition.

Backbones of jelly and heads full of mush.

Lydia

"No, because a person is not the same as a political nation state. Nation states aren't made in the image of God. I'm commanded to love my neighbor, I'm only commanded to live at peace with the authorities God has put under me."

Oh dear. Here we go again with this age group's total ignorance concerning our form of government which was based on the principle and ideal of self government. It took a while to get there, of course, for all adults to participate. But we did it. Choice is a scary thing for Calvinists. Your ST only understands authoritarianism and control of others.

I realize that concept of the "ability" to self govern is the total opposite of Calvin. This Founder said it best:

“The Calvinistic doctrines of election, reprobation, and the atonement are so repulsive to human reason that they can never obtain the assent of the mind, but through the medium of the passions; and the master passion of orthodoxy is fear.”

— John Quincy Adams —

In the "Life of John Adams", page 53

Joshua Kelso

Well Scott, the only way you and I would be sharing the same fox hole would be if I was tending your wounds, so you might be grateful for my presence after all. As for cowardice, I've certainly faced persecution for my faith, and I have the scars to prove it. If you like, you are welcome to come threaten or bully a weak or helpless person in my presence and see whether or not my backbone is jelly or not, but hopefully you aren't that kind of person, so we can leave the situation in the confines of the hypothetical.

To answer your question: No do not believe there is a nation who is actively seeking to glorify God. I don't think nationalism is particularly Christlike to be honest, regardless of the nation in question. A small part of you always wants to love your country I think, but it's not always possible if you are looking at things through a biblical lens.

Lydia

"It really concerns me that you don't seem able to differentiate between loving a country and loving your fellow man. Jesus told believers to flee to the hills when they saw destruction coming, not stand and fight for their country. I'm assuming you would have ignored this and died fighting the Romans in AD 70 instead of fleeing and continuing the testimony of the church elsewhere?"

One tiny problem. We don't live in AD 70. You do understand the implications of being occupied in that time? You have not thought this through, have you, as you are stuck in either/or thinking. Don't worry, no one will expect you to protect the least of these.

Oh how I wish actual critical thinking was taught out there!

Lydia

"Lydia - I'm not sure what your point is. I never said I hated America. I did ask why I should love it. Chapter & verse perhaps, instead of Non Sequiturs about Islam?"

And no one here said they loved the idea of America more than God. But that has been your operating premise.

Again you are only capable of "either/or" thinking and it keeps you basically ignorant. I think it would be wise to Value the concept of self-government. But it is ultimately your "choice". Isn't that wonderful? You have a choice. But I do understand that within your deterministic framework, that is a challenge.

Your framework has more in common with the determinism of Islam (as did Calvin's Geneva) whether you can see it or not. You have been indoctrinated, not educated. If you want chapter and verse to backup your views then perhaps we should go the route of MacArthur and just say that America's founding was a sin. We went against "God's chosen" divine rulers.

Lydia

Joshua, Would you say that agreeing with the ideal of self government is nationalistic? Is voting nationalistic?

Max

Peter writes "To find it hard to love unbelieving people who are clearly under the wrath of God shows the cards of one's heart I'm afraid."

As Dave Hunt, Christian apologist, used to say "What love is this?!"

Joshua Kelso

@Lydia: My operating premise has been, why do people like you view chest-thumping patriotism as a Christian virtue? Why do you look down at people who find little to celebrate about the state of our nation? And please stop embarrassing yourself by claiming knowledge of my educational state, doctrinal views, etc. I understand you have a visceral hatred of Piper and MacArthur, but please, reserve it for them if you must, not me. I've read 0 MacArthur books (I did listen to his 7 part series on women in the church, it was ok) and 0 Piper books. I've been wary of MacArthur since he had his stumble with denying the eternal sonship of Christ, and I've been wary of Piper since he first snuggled up with Driscoll.

You say you love God more than the idea of America, but you almost never mention His word. You can rattle off silly mockeries like "vipers in diapers" and quote the founding fathers and all sorts of philosopher's and conspiracy theories, but ask you to talk in terms of God's word and all that's left where you were standing is a Lydia-shaped dust cloud. You can call me ignorant if you like - but it won't stop me from basing what I believe on God's word.

To answer: no I don't think there is anything wrong with Christian's voting, or that it is inherently nationalistic. I also don't think it's wrong for a Christian to refuse to vote for either of our current two bottom of the barrel choices. I'll decide closer to the time if I will vote. I've been through 3 election and voted in two and abstained in one. And no, agreeing with self-government is not inherently nationalistic, but you are living in a fantasy land of you think a Trump administration is going to return us to some golden age of small local government. We live in a Federal Republic that is getting more and more totalitarian and less and less "free" everyday. At best, 4 or 8 years of Trump might hurt the nation less than 8 years of Hillary. Neither will stop the rot.

peter lumpkins

Joshua,

“No, because a person is not the same as a political nation state. Nation states aren't made in the image of God.”

Sorry. My words do not presume the absurd notion you cite. Nor is your response more than smoke. Even so, a nation cannot exist apart from people. While a nation is more than people, it surely is not less. Indeed the very examples you mention—Supreme Court and President—are empty ideals apart from the people who fill the offices. Thus to separate the populous from the politic as you do makes little, if any, sense.

So, once again, if our nation is “clearly under the wrath of God” as you maintain, and for that reason, not a good investment of your love, it’s very difficult to imagine how unbelieving people who are also clearly under God’s wrath would merit your love.

The truth is, Joshua, you’ve made it very clear on this blog before that you don’t believe God has salvific love for all people. If this is so, to come here now pleading as you did with Lydia, “I never said I hated America. I did ask why I should love it” remains disingenuous at best. In your worldview, hating people under God's wrath seems consistent with your basic premise. God hates Esau, remember?

Actually, I get the feeling you only showed up here argue as you have before. If others want to do so, it's up to them. I have no time for the nonsense, however.

With that, I am...

Peter 

Lydia

"@Lydia: My operating premise has been, why do people like you view chest-thumping patriotism as a Christian virtue? Why do you look down at people who find little to celebrate about the state of our nation?"

Here we go again with the either/or positions. If I don't agree with your premise then I am automatically put in the category of a chest-thumping Patriot. How is valuing the concept of self government chest thumping patriotism? At some point in your life you were taught to think this way.

Do you value the freedom of conscious that does not harm others? Do you value freedom of speech? If you do value those things at all, does that make you a chest thumping patriot? You are exercising them here...now.

Do you think you would be a better Christian if those things were taken from you? Do you believe that you have to be persecuted in order to be righteous?

Lydia

"Thus to separate the populous from the politic as you do makes little, if any, sense."

Very good point. It is scary to think how many young minds like this that guys like Mohler, Piper, McArthur and others have influenced. Add to that few of them have been taught in depth on American civics in school....from all angles. Disaster.

Lydia

"...but you are living in a fantasy land of you think a Trump administration is going to return us to some golden age of small local government. We live in a Federal Republic that is getting more and more totalitarian and less and less "free" everyday. At best, 4 or 8 years of Trump might hurt the nation less than 8 years of Hillary. Neither will stop the rot."

I did not even think in terms of a "fantasy world" president in my first voting experience. Thankfully I had parents who taught me how to think more logically.

My view has always had been that the smallest government is the better government. Neither party has a good track record on that.

One thing my parents did teach is that our voting choice is very private. Beware of anyone who tries to influence you on how you vote. That was considered inappropriate where I come from since adults are to make their own decisions. And that includes from Church or from any Ministry leaders.

A better way to deal with such things is to discuss and debate civic issues. And leave it at that.

eric

Hey lydia, we can agree that a smaller government is the better government.

Interesting other comment from you:
"Beware of anyone who tries to influence you on how you vote. That was considered inappropriate where I come from since adults are to make their own decisions. And that includes from Church or from any Ministry leaders".

That provides a keen insight into why you answer the way you do on many issues. Not good or bad, just insightful.

Lydia

Hi Eric. How very cryptic. How is it insightful to YOU?

Scott Shaver

Eric, I take it from your raised hackles that you must be an EMT or something. In response, don't worry, I'd die in a fox-hole before I let you touch me.

eric

Scott,
Out of the love of Jesus, I would do what I can to keep you alive, even if you are kicking and screaming. Same goes for proclaiming salvation thru Christ to ALL men who would rather die than have me touch them with Gods word.

Be at peace brother.

I sincerely mean that.

eric

Lydia,
According to the God we serve, It can be good to influence others and to be influenced by others.

Matt 5:13

13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how [a]can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a [b]hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a [c]basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Scott Shaver

LOL..I'd shoot myself first.

Scott Shaver

Eric.

I'm afraid it's arrogance as opposed to "God's Word" you're proclaiming.

Be quiet....I sincerely mean that.

Lydia

Eric, I will bet that if you have children or will one day, you will want them to be discerning about how they are influenced and by whom --when they are adults. At least I hope so. We have enough "Thought Reform" out there as it is. It is never too early with the critical thinking skills.

You would "influence" me a lot more if you actually understood the passages you quoted within the context of this thread discussion. Scripture is not a weapon. Those passages are about how one lives and what is communicated by such. It is not about telling people who they should or should not vote for. In fact, I would include "practice what you preach" in there. Most seem to think the latter suffices.

Lydia

Scott, as we have seen with that movement, talk is always cheaper. If only more people understood that before they pledge themselves to Calvin and his current magisterium.

eric

Lydia,

Do you really think i thought that scripture was about influencing who one should vote for?

When you wrote:
"And that includes from Church or from any Ministry leaders".

I thought you were making a general statement not limited to who to vote for....rather being influenced in any number of areas.

My apologies.

Joshua Kelso

@Peter Good day to you too I guess. I'm sorry you can't differentiate between a government and a person. Do you use German and Nazi interchangeably? I hope not. Nice memories with the back linking, I will remind you that was the comments section where you accused me of lying to my supporters and using a false name.

@Scott, learn the difference between "Joshua" and "Eric". I'll give you a hint: they share none of the same letters. I'm sorry you would rather shoot yourself than accept help from someone you disagree with - you really would be terrible to share a fox hole with.

@Lydia I'm not sure someone who slanders her own extended family to strangers on the internet should be telling someone else to practise what they preach. Maybe you should rethink some of your choices - you are free after all.

Lydia

"Do you use German and Nazi interchangeably"

Interesting question in light of the fact the official church was influenced by the writings of Martin Luther to pledge allegiance to the party. Wish there had been more Bonhoeffers.

And btw, What is your definition of slander?

Lydia

Eric, I thought you were following the thread within the subject matter of the post.

In a broader sense, I think the Neo Cal movement has been a horrible influence from Piper to Driscoll to Mahaney to Mohler and all their protégés.
I can only pray those so influenced eventually grow up.

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