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Aug 14, 2014

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John

Maybe White should let it go, but then again Caner brings it on himself by not fessing up to his misdeeds. Both sides have the power to end this. All the rest of us can do is watch the slow motion train wreck. Why get involved? Caner has the power to end it, may as well wait till it happens.

Dmbcpastor

Carry on, brother. Do not grow weary in well doing.

“True Christians are those who carry out Christ's doctrine in their lives. ” Michael Sattler

"The resurrection and the judgment will demonstrate before all worlds who won and who lost. We can wait." A W Tozer

Max

What love is this? The Calvinist God makes some folks so arrogant and mean-spirited.

DrJamesAch

Contrary to popular belief, I actually spend just as much time trying to give people the benefit of a doubt than I do penning their errors.

Yesterday, I wrote about scenarios that could show how James White played a role in Braxton's death, and then my brother had a brief exchange with White and Richard Pierce, and then I sat back and again, ruminated on what I had written, and just as I was about to consider giving them a little bit of credit for making an effort, I see this on Richard Pierces Twitter:

HacimMb ‏@HacimMb Aug 8 Why do some who think that a one-time exchange on twitter is "bullying" but its okay for them to initiate a barrage of harassing tweets?

Richard C Pierce ‏@RichardCPierce @hacimmb because they want to show us what REAL bullying looks like. Get yer pitchforks boys.

First of all, if a "one time exchange" isn't enough to be considered "bullying", call your wife a fatso JUST ONCE and see how long she holds it against you.

Secondly, Richard is flip-flopping now on his previous position where he was claiming to have "exhorted" Hall. Now what he says about Braxton's critics is that it wasn't "REAL bullying".

With comments like that, I must ask the same question White thinks he must ask: How can I stop writing about White & Co in regards to the Caner issues?

Scott Shaver

James White talks more about what he doesn't know in addition to the little he does know more than any human being I believe I've ever read.

A real piece of work. Had an acrostic in mind but decorum prohibits my posting here.

peter lumpkins

With all due respect, John, you have no clue what you're talking about I'm afraid. First, you miss the entire thrust of this piece by suggesting "Caner brings it on himself..." Excuse me, we're talking here about a family losing a teenage son to suicide less than a month ago. How is EC responsible for James White's sorry behavior in morally condemning him a mere 2 weeks into the family grief?

Second, you acknowledge that maybe White should "let it go" but then glibly conclude "Caner has the power to end it, may as well wait till it happens." Excuse me, but this is not a TV show. Real people are being hurt here. Nor do you understand who these internet hooligans are and are capable of. Again, we just experienced one of them going after a 15 year old boy. And while he actually became sorrowful for it, most of his community is still defending it!

So no, Ergun Caner does not have the power to "stop it" as you say. Nor will he ever repent of something he did not do. Nor should he. While he apologized early into this controversy for the misstatements he made, James White & co. insists he must "repent" of making up his life story, creating an illusion and myth that he was a dedicated Muslim, and profiteering on the American people post-9/11. That's what White, et al insist Caner do. Well, he's not going to do that. Nor would I.

With that, I am...
Peter

Lydia

I MIGHT be able to wrap my head around this if it were concerning someone who protected child molesters over a long period of time in ministry but I cannot fathom this Javert behavior while these poor people are suffering so grievously. In that case it would be about protecting children now and in the future. And it would be important to get specific information for arrests and trials.

But this situation is exactly the opposite. A teen boy was NOT protected from being bullied and blamed for his father
by men who make their living reflecting Christ.

These guys are so inconsistent. White tells Hall to back off then Hall is forced (yes, I believe he is in jeopardy of losing his ministry)to "apologize" (if you can call it that) and now White picks back up the baton within weeks. the whole thing reeks of PR spin, manipulation, smoke and mirrors, et. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people are sucked in so easily.

I think many are being played. A teen boy is dead. Have they no basic decency or respect? I do not think they do and this attitude is all over the SBC from the YRR movement
which is why it has become no longer safe. That whole movement reminds me of how Islam operates. They do evil and then play victim.

Mary

I'm sorry but these people are evil. I pray the good that God is working out is for people having their eyes opened to these wolves. What James White, JD Hall and all the sycophants have done and are doing has nothing to do with Christ and His church. Absolutely. Nothing. To. Do. With. Christ.

Darlene

Thank you, Mr. Lumpkins! As DMbcpastor said....do not grow weary in well doing! Keep standing strong and exposing these wolves.

Along with DOCTOR White, don't forget Chris Rosebrough, Fred Butler, Dustin Germaine, and the others who happily encouraged JD Hall in his torment of the Caner family, and continue it to this day. The hot light of Truth needs to be shone on these men until they finally stop their bullying!

Craig Daliessio

Peter, (and Dr. Ach) I'm wondering if this isn't White's way of diverting attention from what they did to Braxton. Stir the pot in this fashion, get the howling to switch from JDHall / Braxton BACK to White / Caner. We all know White couldn't care less what anyone outside of his crony kingdom thinks of him so maybe this is just what he wants.

Law Prof

It is fascinating how much those who talk of total depravity seem incapable of applying said concept to their own actions. You'd think a full embracement of that concept would give one a modicum of humility.

Mark

John,

@ 7:13 a.m. "Maybe White should let it go" is an understatement that you don't seem to support with your continued "yea but do you know what Caner did?" ideology.

Your statement this morning is merely giving White a pass to continue to sin against Dr. Caner and his family.

You, Hall and White's position is clear and out of hand going so far as mocking and making fun of Dr. Caner's name in one of Hall's postings.

You, White, Hall (and his puppets) need to give it rest and start exercising some faith by giving your burdens to the Holy Spirit instead of this continue repetitive Crusade to sinfully take matters into your own hands outside the guidance of Jesus.

I haven't seen one ounce of love from any of you guys not even the "tough love" you guys proclaim to have with Dr. Caner.

The lack of recognizable faith and love displayed by Hall and White would have a lot of Reformed Theologians questioning their salvation.

In Christ
Mark

Eric

If Mr. White had comments allowed on his website I would say to him. (Perhaps he reads this site). Take your own advice and don't make any comments, reply to any web discussions, reply to any tweets, etc. about Mr. Caner until his time of grieving is over. You told others to stop it......so stop it.

Eric

Another thought I'd ask Mr. White if he allowed comments to follow what he writes online. I'm a reformed Baptist who is fully accepting and convinced that the Bible teaches the reformed position on God's sovereignty.

At some point, (because I believe God is sovereign) we all can let go of whatever "issue" (fill in a more accurate word)we are pushing to make right. I'm specifically talking between believers here, though the same can be said about the "world".

If White has done all, said all, promoted all, argued all,about this issue, if he has made his case known to the public, if he has produced all the evidence, what more can he do if he doesn't get the result that he thinks is just?

I would tell him, and am suggesting he think thru this as he reads this, that he can do no more. And I would tell him that even if a wrong has been committed, and that wrong has not been made right, he can rest in peace. God is sovereign, all things will work out in the end, even the wrongs that happen every day in this world.

I would also challenge him on his position that he has to push this issue because he (White) interacts with Muslims. That is my paraphrase and I'll stand corrected if I'm misrepresenting his position.

In my opinion, that idea undervalues Gods sovereignty in moving on the hearts of man. This would be like my saying that Westboro church is a hindrance to my evangelizing the lost. I cant control all the wacky things that happen in the name of Christ from false churches or individuals. they have absolutely no affect on my preaching to the lost, because God is sovereign and I rest in knowing that.

So Mr. White, rest in the sovereignty of God, know he moves in the hearts of man, know that it's not your responsibly to fix issues that are out of your control.

Max

Why is it that some "pastors" still display total depravity?

Jim G.

Here's the problem, Eric. If God is as sovereign as you believe, then it is God's (hidden) will for White to carry on as he does. Because if all that occurs is in God's plan (even to the minute detail), then White's actions ARE the "hidden" will of God. White is, so to speak, just reading the script written for him.

We can't play ball in two fields at the same time. If one chooses a deterministic view of sovereignty, then every action that occurs is the "hidden" will of God. Its occurrence proves it so, and we can only know it in hindsight. Even your mild rebuke of him is determined. It cannot be effective, because the outcome of what White will do is already determined. Only J. Edwards took this kind of foolishness to its logical ends and declared God continues to create moment by moment, making god the only and immediate cause of everything and removing any sort of causal chain of events. That is the only way determinism can work, and in doing so humans are no longer in any way in the image of God.

Jim G.

Scott Shaver

Thnx for explanation Jim.

Determinism just ain't no fun anymore.

Christiane

what people sow they also reap,
but this time, the 'reaping' is a tragedy beyond words

we do not know 'the why' of this tragedy completely, and we cannot judge one another based on conjecture,

the loss of a child is unbearably painful for those who endure it and for those who witness it . . . our role as a Christian people is to pray with and for the family that suffers now

no one deserves this kind of suffering, no one

may God have mercy on all of us together, and may the God of All Comfort abide with the Caner family and with those who are painfully touched by the sadness of this tragedy

Lydia

Jim, As always you hit the articulated point out of the park that even I can understand. :o)

eric

Hey Jim G,
I believe God is as sovereign as he has declared thru his word. There are acceptable (within biblical guidelines) disagreements between us on how to define the parameters of that sovereignty, without casting the other as heretics or unbelievers. You didn't make that charge, I'm simply stating my view.

I see the general position, on Gods Sovereignty, of the Reformed Baptist church as the most sound. I say general because different individuals can take what I would label an "extreme" view.

For instance, we know that God created the world and those properties that hold it together. We know that God created gravity, thermodynamics, Archimedes' Principle, etc. I don't know of a biblical principle that says if you drop a leaf, it's final resting place is directly determined by God. God can certainly direct its path to an exact location, but his sovereignty isn't challenge if gravity and wind and the leafs shape directs it's path. I do know some who would say even the leaf falls under the direct hand of God, I would disagree.

I don't think the reformed Baptist view of Gods sovereignty would lead one to conclude " White is, so to speak, just reading the script written for him."

Jim G.

Hi Eric,

I appreciate your comments. Of course I'm aware of the continuum of possible views on sovereignty that exist within what is generally accepted as orthodoxy.

I see you capitalize the "R" in Reformed Baptist. I assume that means you belong to a formal association of some sort of reformed churches. Most Reformed Baptists, of which I am aware, tend to adopt a confession like Second London or something similar. Reformed Baptist confessions tend to greatly mirror their parent confession, Westminster. I took a second look at 2LCF tonight to see the order of the articles. It follows WCF to a tee in the early parts, even to the third article on the decree of God.

If one looks at Article 3 of the WCF or 2LCF, it would say, my paraphrase, that God has decreed all that comes to pass. That means that, according to the confessions, everything that happens has been willed, decreed, and brought about by God. In the case of James White (or anyone else, for that matter), whatever he does - good, bad, or indifferent - was willed and decreed eons ago by God and brought to pass in his life actions. Using your leaf analogy and the 2LCF, wherever the leaf falls (and the path it takes) has been meticulously decreed by God. Why? Because it happened. It's very happening is proof that it has been decreed, according to the Reformed Baptist confessions.

So, yes, the Reformed Baptist view of sovereignty would lead one to conclude that everything White is doing was decreed long ago - your confessions demand such a conclusion. An event's occurrence, by Article 3, directly implies its being both willed and decreed by God. God wrote the script in his decree. Because determinism is how sovereignty is viewed, all any of us can do is play out the script. There is no other alternative, as long as sovereignty is understood to be deterministic.

Of course, a non-deterministic view of sovereignty is logically equivalent to the rejection of Article 3. If one rejects Article 3, there's no real reason to be Reformed.

Jim G.

Mary

Peter, I think this is off topic but maybe not. Maybe someone who's smarter than me can figure out what's wrong with the way Calvinists read the Bible and make an application.

I just read a blog article which should have been titled in screaming all caps GOD ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT HAVE A PLAN FOR MY LIFE. YOU IDIOTS DON'T KNOW HOW TO "EXEGETE" CORRECTLY AND GET JERMEMIAH 29:11 ALL WRONG! GOT IT! GOD DOES NOT HAVE PLAN FOR ANYBODY'S LIFE...

See when I take in the WHOLE counsel of scripture I can believe that God has a plan for my life and so when God was speaking at a time specifically to the Israelites I ask myself does this promise only apply at that place and time or does God still today have plans for His children. But Calvinists on the other hand don't actually deal with the WHOLE counsel of Scripture - just pieces here and there. So you when reading Jeremiah 29:11 you have to puff up your chest and act like everyone else are idiots because low and behold you sure showed us that God is actually talking to the Israelites. And thus you come to the conclusion that GOD DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAVE PLANS FOR ANYBODY - He hasn't since the OT.

You can't actually have a dialogue with people who read the Bible this way because they simply don't have the Big Picture.

Scott Shaver

It's not the "sovereignty" we have issues with Eric.

For some of us (myself), it has more to do with the "Reform" element and various individualistic twists on deifying a dead theologian.

Jim is right IMO. If one rejects Article 3, there's not much mechanical or intellectual reason to be "Reformed".

James Thomas

Peter,

It is a bit strange that you are calling out James White...again. The reason why it's strange is because you are calling for James to stop "attacking" Mr. Caner while you continue to "attack" James White. In fact, you call his words "bigotry" and "lowdown words" against Mr. Caner. You then insist that these "bullying attacks" must end. The fact that you have made it your platform to slam people and "attack" them on your blog for years is humorous. Should we take this seriously? What about Jason Allen? Surely your words were not "bigotry" or "lowdown" as you tried to systematically stop him from becoming the president of a SBC seminary. I don't expect anyone to take you seriously. You sir - need to stop.

peter lumpkins

Mary,

With you I remain confused about how many Calvinists--especially young, restless, inexperienced, ignorant, obnoxious and pretending to be Reformed Calvinists--glibly but confidently make statements that not even mainstream Reformed believers can or do grasp. If any theology implies a divine plan for individuals, Calvinism's preoccupation with predestination, fore-ordination, irresistible grace and meticulous sovereignty ought rightly qualify. But these theological jackals are so obsessed with rationalistic tendencies, they are blinded to a fully-robed biblical revelation. They unfortunately function somewhat as spiritual deists, especially concerning prayer and the supernatural.

The evangelical church--Southern Baptists particularly--is in considerable theological cowplop if these guys win the day.

With that, I am...
Peter

Mary

Peter, I thought about this and I think that these guys are so intent on going after those they hate - and it is a hatred that these guys show for people who disagree with them - that they are so intent on going after people that they throw away just plain common sense. So if someone they hate uses a verse like Jer 29:11, then instead of 'testing the Spirits' to see if someone they hate has a valid point or heaven forbid even a Biblical point they will jump through all sorts of hoops to try to discredit the people they hate. It's spirits that are unteachable along of course with incredible amounts pride and elitism . So then you get someone ranting on and on without realizing that what he's actually saying is GOD DOES NOT HAVE A PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE. It just boggles the mind that someone would let their hate keep them from what is a timeless truth. How on earth do you set yourself up as someone who is some kind of Bible expert and worthy of correcting others when you miss a verse like Jer 29:11.

I'm anticipating the article for 2 Chronicles 7:14 GOD WILL NOT HEAR YOUR PRAYERS SO STOP!

peter lumpkins

James,

I'm afraid we have an entirely different understanding of vocabulary, vocabulary like "strange" "attack" "bigotry" "lowdown." Yes, I called for White to stop and showed why he needed to--his moral attacks on Dr. Caner's CHARACTER was and remains both bigoted and lowdown. And, I suggest you look up those words in a standard dictionary before attempting to place what I do in the same category as what James White and his internet thugs do.

But that's the objection I offer concerning critics like yourself, James. You either do not know how to make moral distinctions or refuse to do so (with you personally, I hope it's the former and will assume it whether or not it's the case). There's a huge difference criticizing a person's leadership decisions, experience, qualifications, and theological beliefs on one hand and his or her personal integrity and character on another. As I recall I've never stated nor implied James White is an unbeliever, a charlatan, a deceptive liar, etc. in my criticisms of him.

And, even granting a lapse or two over the past few years in logging pieces about him, still the burden is upon you and others to demonstrate I've had a PATTERN of doing so. Hence, your accusation that I "attack" James White is both empty and vacuous. Nor do I go out of my way to "attack" him. To the contrary, my criticisms of James White are mostly responses to White's criticisms of Southern Baptists (and me but mostly other Southern Baptists) that I find entirely unfair. Thus, he fires the first shot, so to speak, a little detail you conveniently or not failed to mention.

Moreover, your mention of Jason Allen and my postings about him only aggravates the gross mistake you make in putting my criticisms in the dishonorable category as James White who concentrates almost exclusively on attempting to PROVE other people are LIARS, SHAMS, CHARLATANS, and FRAUDS. If you can present one statement I made about Jason Allen in which I implied he was any of the above, please do so. If not, then drop it, James, drop it. Moreover, even granting I did criticize Allen, that was two years ago. How many times have I mentioned Allen again? If I recall, not a single time. The trustees obviously either didn't get the memo or, if they did, believed their own research was better than mine. I fully accept that. And my silence proves it. On the other hand, James White & his internet thugs literally stalk Ergun Caner, every day, every week, every month. White even said in the latest CP article he has no intentions of stopping.

Hence, James, as I said, your vocabulary and mine just doesn't see things quite the same. So, it may be you who needs to "stop" rather than I or others...

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Mary,

I hear both a call for reformation and need for revival. But the reformation God send's may not be the reformation many think we must have. All movements eventually "die out." Mark Driscoll and The Acts29 Church Planting movement was king of the highway just a few years ago, so much the king that Al Mohler rhetorically asked in a CT article where we're going to look for healthy models if not to Mark Driscoll and/or Tim Keller. The reformation may be a rise in a a decidedly non-reformed theology. I think it's inevitable myself. But that's just me...

With that, I am...
Peter

Max

"I hear both a call for reformation and need for revival."

Brother Peter,

According to some folks in the SBC, the reformation and revival we need is one and the same ... a revival of Calvinism. The theological noise has certainly distracted Southern Baptists from pursuing the prerequisites for genuine revival and spiritual awakening: humility, prayer, repentance, and seeking God's face. Long before the New Calvinism movement in our midst, Southern Baptists in both pulpit and pew had already erected a great obstacle to revival: apathy. We don't experience revival because we are satisfied to live without it. Until we see the SBC masses agonizing in prayer at altars across this country, we will continue to experience "our" presence, not God's. We desperately need a revival focused on the Cross of Christ, not the teachings and traditions of men. May God reform us, not men. Revive us again, O Lord!

Scott Shaver

"Spiritual Deists" as thrown out by Peter previously is probably the most fitting term I've heard lately.

Describes some of em to a tee.

Lydia

James, Here is what is exhausting about your movement and why more and more are washing their hands of it:


They go after people with a vengence then rebuke them as worse when they respond. You guys don't do well outside your bubble where you don't make the rules.

Now, the usual response to this sort of comment is to dive into deflective details and a black hole of circular fallacies. It is what it is. Perhaps you cannot see it, but others can. And I feel obligated to warn you. It is a world of sociopathy and hard to come out of once ingrained.

In fact, as I watch some of the fallout, my guess is more and more people (even Cal leaders) are starting to distance themselves from certain aspects of the Reformed movement. I have a hunch. But then I used to be paid to watch patterns and trends in organizations and I have been wrong several times. So too early to tell.

Mark

Peter,

In a comment made by Rhology on Pulpit/Pen today is was proclaimed they were going to continue with the so-called Caner Project. In the article it really wasn't clear much behind seen JD will contribute his views to his puppets.

I was hoping all who were affiliated with Pulpit would end that site and end their participation in Media altogether in Radio, Twitter and Facebook,

peter lumpkins

Mark,

This only shows the undeniably nature of true stalkers--nothing hinders their obsession. Nothing.

As for P&P "shutting down" I doubt it will, and honestly I see no reason why it should, or we should necessarily want it to. I'm hopelessly aligned with the notion of free dissent. That said, we can all wish P&P and other "watchdog" sites would lay down their assassinate-the-personal-character-of-opponents arms, shooting everything that moves in a direction they narrowly judge "immoral" or "ungodly" according to their own opinions--all too frequently, jaded and even unChristian opinions.

Mark

Peter,

In this case, if one has a repentant heart the only conclusion in my view would end predatory behavior.

I'm thinking of Matt. 5:30 as to why I think the P&P gang should end Social Media if they are truly broken.

I suggested to JD several times I didn't agree with his tactics and offered correction to the way he openly debated with a youth at Ronnie Floyd's church over a questionable video. (it was an embarrassment to how Christian Counseling should be offered)

Freedom of speech preservation may be prevailing reasons why they shouldn't be denied to carry on in the abusive and reckless manner. they do.
Does this mean we are becoming a nation more immoral, operating under our own understanding without leaning or trusting the Holy Spirit which is the case, include the heavy-handed and sinful tactics of P&P gang?

Scott Shaver

Proves you just can't wash the stink off skunks.

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