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Jun 04, 2014

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Lydia

Mark who? (Hee Hee)

That is literally what a Sojourn seminary wife said to me last year. Oh yeah, we split from Acts 29, she said. Really? How come MH staffers were hired at Sojourn in the not so distant past. And how in the world can you afford them?

Driscoll DNA is all over the SBC folks. And his mentor was CJ Mahaney! And in the not to distant past he was being praised to the hills on SBCV and anyone who DARED speak of the scandals and false teaching back then was told off quick. But lets all just pretend none of this stuff is happening and the SBC's part in promoting these guys.

And we are seeing that people fleeing from scandal are finding nice jobs in SBC entities and churches. So how much has Sojourn gotten from the SBC. Details, please. Anyone? Kevin?

Bill Mac

Hi Peter,
Am I right in assuming that the story here is about deleting a portion of a sermon and not about the idea that Jesus could make mistakes? I don't think the idea that Jesus could have stubbed his toe or gotten his sums wrong as a child is terribly controversial.

peter lumpkins

Bill Mac,

My idea in linking to the story concerns Mark Driscoll's 'fall from grace' so to speak when it comes to 'bad boy,' 'in your face' behavior which catapulted him into New Calvinist stardom. For me, the deletion of a section about Jesus "making mistakes" sends a signal that Mars Hill just doesn't want or need any more conflict right now. Two-three years ago, would this have been deleted? I honestly doubt it.

The CT respondents gave some sound reflection on the question proper.

With that, I am...
Peter

Patrick

"My idea in linking to the story concerns Mark Driscoll's 'fall from grace' so to speak when it comes to 'bad boy,' 'in your face' behavior which catapulted him into New Calvinist stardom. For me, the deletion of a section about Jesus "making mistakes" sends a signal that Mars Hill just doesn't want or need any more conflict right now. Two-three years ago, would this have been deleted? I honestly doubt it."

So you idea in the link is related to his "fall from grace." I don't particularly care for Driscoll for a number of reasons, and find him quite off-putting, but is this not why you're so incensed with White, Hall, etc, continuing to harp about Caner? I'm assuming in their minds, they're just documenting his "fall from grace."

Please enlighten me about how you're so smart, and I'm so dumb.

Blessings!

peter lumpkins

Hi Patrick,

Back for more tit/tat about nothing? For example "So you [sic] idea in the link is related to his "fall from grace"...but is this not why you're so incensed with White, Hall, etc...I'm assuming in their minds, they're just documenting his [Caner's] "fall from grace."

Well, Patrick, I don't know that it takes much smarts to see my pictorial allusion to Driscoll's 'fall from grace' had absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Driscoll "sinned" much less fabricated his entire life like you assume when you crawl into their minds suggesting 'they're just documenting his [Caner's] "fall from grace."' Rather my allusion to Driscoll's 'fall' had to do with popularity ratings amongst Neo-Calvinists.

Does this count as enlightenment?

With that, I am...
Peter

P.S. Now unless you want to actually make a point rather than just verbally spit, I suggest you move along Patrick. Thanks for making your quarterly contribution...

Craig Daliessio

Peter,
What I find amusing...or disturbing...is that the argument here seems to be whether Jesus made "mistakes" like we all made at age 5 or age 7 or age 9 etc. Picking up a cactus or coloring outside the box is a true mistake. Something you do because you don't know any different. It's not "wrong" in a sin sense, it's wrong in an "incorrect" sense. When you ask a 3 year old "How much is 5 plus 6" and (in the case of a 3 year old entirely unlearned in math) he answers: "Ninety-twelve!" that's a mistake out of innocent ignorance.
When you plagiarize material by the basketful and when you buy bulk volumes of your own book at strategic moments during certain days in order to manipulate the sales rankings and garner "best Seller" status, that's a sinful lack of honesty and integrity.
I have written five books, and I am proud of them all and I would put them out there alongside the best writers I know of. I didn't have the money for a publicity campaign...seeing as how I was homeless for most of the last six years and all that...and for me as a writer who really NEEDS to sell a few books and who lived as a homeless man and STILL remained faithful to the tithe with what money I did make, it is a smack in the face to think that someones tithe went to the fraudulent manipulation of Driscoll's book so that his ego could be massaged.
THAT is surely a mistake that Jesus wouldn't have made and what Driscoll was trying to do here was erase the lines between the two.

Lydia

Patrick,

Driscoll had a "fall from grace"? By the way, I am not even sure what that cliche means. It sounds like human responsibility is not a factor.

He still has a very large following and other former followers who tend to overlook the past 8 years of red flags (his porno divinations were not enough of a clue?) and pretend they were never Driscoll promoters and he never had much influence. However, I am hearing less and less of the typical Driscoll excuse I heard for years on SBC blogs, "He preaches the Gospel".

Perhaps he is being "marginalized" by some? (wink)

Driscoll has preached/said/taught a lot of weird stuff. A lot of which has disappeared off the internet over the years. BTW, I don't know if you know or not but Driscoll taught not too long ago that Esther was a *ho. That is the level of scholarship we are dealing with. Sadly, that sort of thing does sell books and attracts certain types who actually give him money.

*for the sake of the filter.

Max

"Driscoll has preached/said/taught a lot of weird stuff."

Yes, Lydia that has how the aging potty-mouth preacher made his mark in New Calvinist circles ... always looking for the sensational out-of-the-ballpark positions to hang his hat on. Only a totally depraved pastor would unconditionally elect to limit the Son of God to making mistakes. I do not find Mr. Driscoll's perspective irresistible and will exercise my free will to persevere in my belief that Jesus was Christlike, without sin or mistake, even as a child.

Max

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being (Heb 1:3) ... Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father (John 14:9)"

Soooo ... does God make mistakes?! It's a mistake for Driscoll to make this stuff up! And a bigger mistake for the YRR thousands to continue to tune into him, listen to his sermons, and buy his books. Read the Red, folks, and pray for discernment.

Craig Daliessio

Max, do you think Jesus ever got a splinter or hit his thumb with a hammer?
Those aren't sins, but they would count as mistakes I guess.

Bill Mac
sensational out-of-the-ballpark positions to hang his hat on

Driscoll's mistake is thinking the idea of Jesus making mistakes is a sensational out-of-the-ballpark position, as the scholars Peter linked to demonstrates. The idea of the infant Jesus being unable to solve Fermat's Last Theorem is hardly novel or sensational or even remotely un-orthodox.

Max

Craig - I just have difficulty with Driscoll's fabrication of Jesus in this manner. I realize that Jesus was "fully man" (or "fully child" in this case), but would think His "fully God" would have kept busted thumbs and splinters out of his life or other errors in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning. We just don't have a Biblical account of Jesus making mistakes and have no reason to go beyond what is written. I realize the difference between mistakes and sins, but see Jesus without either in His life on earth. I guess we can ask Him about splinters and busted thumbs when we get to Heaven, but I have a lot of other items on my list to chat about first - which will probably take an eternity. Driscoll's sermon in this regard is rather silly, but we've come to expect such from him.

Craig Daliessio

When he chose not to attain his sonship but became "nothing" didn't he leave himself open to the occasional stubbed toe, hangnail, or blister? Did he ever bite his tongue accidentally? Skip a rock less than three times per throw? I agree with Driscoll's premise that the human Jesus learned by doing and sometimes by doing things incorrectly. But never SINFULLY. Just as we have no biblical evidence of his being a bad thrower or getting a splinter, we also have no evidence that this DIDN'T happen. Since none of these things are sinful...why not? Did he have B.O? Did he ever play outdoors with his friends too long and get sunburnt?

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