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Jan 20, 2014

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Debbie Kaufman

Peter: Stop it. This is getting so old I am banging my head. I still believe so much in Reformed Theology and this will not stomp it from being a part of Southern Baptist life.

You have also engaged in so much historical hooey as you call it that I can't even begin to correct you.

peter lumpkins

Hi Debbie

Perhaps you're banging your head against the wall because it's difficult to accept your theological father was nothing less than a murdering, conniving despot who had people killed because they would not bow to his Will. Frankly, I'd be banging my head against the wall too if I hadn't already rejected Calvinism on its theological merit beginning in the nineties. Those who dubbed Calvin "Protestant's Pope" could not have been more precise in my view.

And, yes, I'm thinking more exposure to Calvin and who he really was most certainly will dilute the effect in the SBC of the recent YRR fascination with the man, Calvin.

You may also be banging your head against the wall because you finally realize James White is hardly the scholar you and others think he is. In fact, in this video, he's duping the public about Calvin and Servetus.

Finally, you may also be banging your head against the wall in part because I carefully cite sources to substantiate my views. If you think I've pitched you some historical hooey, then by all means, show this to be true. If you can't then I suggest you keep your accusations to yourself.

Have a good afternoon.

With that, I am...
Peter

Debbie Kaufman

No Peter, I'm banging my head because I'm tired of you trying to push people out. It's not working to well for you, but you just push that much harder. You are a minority group with trash tactics and I'm so tired of it. I am not the only one. Next year or a few years from now it will be something else because you and those behind you just never stop. It's a game with you guys. It will always be a game a sport with you guys. You don't care what you say true or not, you will do whatever it takes. People in the SBC are tired of it. The leadership and direction we are going right now ought to tell you that.

cb scott

Peter,

Please don't be "bangin' your head against the wall." I need you to stay all in one piece. :-)

peter lumpkins

C.B.

I doubt bangin my head will do any damage to a damaged brain already;^) Yes, and I intend to keep it together, brother. We gotz things to do! Anticipating something great...

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Debbie,

The old days are gone, my sister. I'm not going to tit/tat back and forth with you and your soured attitude you spew every time you log on. If you'd like to address any notion here, be my guest. But don't come back with more of your emotional spew about me and your made-up crud I want everybody out of the convention who's not like me. Excuse me. If you missed it that's precisely the lament I'm posing against Calvin & his Geneva, then again it only shows you're disinterest in engaging ideas here. Fact is, I get all the emotionally-driven reaction and spew I can digest from your favorite Calvinist apologist whose rants in historical ignorance is sorta exposed above.

I wish you the best. Oh, and by the way, if reading my pieces upset you so, I recommend you take a break from them.

Now let me be clear again: don't log back on with just more emotional release. Prove your accusation I've offered historical hooey. If you can't prove it, then drop it.

Have a nice MLK week.

With that, I am...
Peter

Max

"Everyone in that day including Michael Servetus believed that it was the state's duty to put Servetus to death for heresy."

I tire of this defense of Calvin ... that what he did was common practice in the era he lived and that he should be judged by a different standard in line with his time. Hero worship is distorting a true Christian perspective of this tragedy. While I don't agree with certain elements of Servetus' theology (and most of Calvin's), as a non-citizen of Geneva, Servetus should have been banished from those parts for speaking against the church state in place there. Holy Spirit guidance would have led his accusers to this action, I believe. "But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere" (James 3:17). "He that saith he abideth in him (Christ) ought himself also so to walk, even as he (Christ) walked" (1 John 2:6).

Tim Rogers

Wow, I come over here reading an article proving the false historical gathering of James White only to find out in the comment thread that Debbie admits to being a "head-banger". :)

Then C.B. says he needs Peter to be in one piece. What is going on down in Georgia for Peter to remain in one piece? Why is Debbie so concerned about Peter and how he looks?

So many questions and so many answers forthcoming.

Scott Shaver

Maybe a game to Debbie Kaufman but have you noticed nobody enjoys playing more than she?

Lydia

"The leadership and direction we are going right now ought to tell you that. "

Yes. Toward a shepherding cult like SGM. The child molester protector type of people. Seems our "leader" likes that sort of "leadership". he even told a reporter that. And CJ moved to Louisville to be "near the seminary" and the big name celeb Calvinist have been there to affirm his hotel church since. Thanks, I think I will forgo that sort of "direction".

James

So, does sin nullify theology?

Lydia

"So, does sin nullify theology?"

James, Ask an atheist. :o)

Seriously, it depends on how you define sin. Some folks define it as existing. because you exist you are sin. You were born guilty for Adam's sin and your very existence is sin. A friend of mine calls this "vipers in diapers".

Or sin are acts you commit. So, I guess it depends. I think facilitating the burning of another human being because they disagree with your "theology" is a big bad sin. It might even "nullify" your theology if we are honest.

Yelling at your dog, a lesser one. At least the dog gets to live.

Lydia

James, Are our lives a "witness" to the truth we claim? Would a Sovereign God want you to facilitate the burning of someone at the stake for not having your theology?

Does belief drive behavior?

Max

"So, does sin nullify theology?"

Participating in the murder of a believer with opposing theology nullifies one as a theologian.

Ben Musclow

Another interesting take on Calvin and Servetus...

http://www.salvationbygrace.org/uc/sub/qaprint.aspx?qa=113&local=11a

Andrew Barker

Ben Musclow: The link was indeed of interest although it was not as balanced as it should have been. The closing comments do not square well with the fact that Calvin was keen to re-write The Institutes as well as history so that what he 'had written' did not conflict with the facts of what had happened. The fact that he felt the need to re-write history should at least indicate that he had something to hide? Deep down, Calvin knew that he had changed his position regarding the death penalty for any 'religious' crime. He just didn't want to admit it.

Lydia

A huge problem with the link, Ben, is that the author ignores quite a bit of uncomfortable history. Too much to go into here but one glaring problem from a historical perspective....:

"Any effort to paint John Calvin as a power mad authoritarian who ruled the church and the city with an iron fist and the threat of death simply belies the ignorance and lack of historical research on the part of the man who makes such a biased claim."

....are that we KNOW for a FACT there were men living at the time/place who dared to defy Calvin's "iron fist" and paid a heavy price. Castillio (sp?) is one example. There are others. We also have documentation on some of the cruel and ridiculous punishments for such petty things as falling asleep in one of Calvin's sermons or making fun of him in any way. He even regulated the amount of courses Genevans could serve at meals.

I believe he was given way too much power too young. That can cause serious problems for someone. He simply could not stand to be disobeyed or disagreed with. He would seek to ruin you. That is not what a Christian looks like in practice.

He was a tyrant.

Scott Shaver

Lydia:

Your knowledge of Calvin is insurmountable. I say keep throwing that wood on the fire.

James

Max,

Upon what Scripture do you base that?

James

Lydia,

My point is this: I have witnessed many Arminian, Traditionalist, etc. committing sins - some might be termed venal, some grave - but I never hear anyone claim that their theological system is invalid because of a specific incident of sin.
On the flip side, it seems to be nearly all I read regarding Calvin's system of theology, which I am sure you know is quite a bit older than Calvin himself.
He clearly did a horrible thing in the trial/conviction/death of Servetus, but does that make what he wrote or preached wrong?
If it does, then who among us can preach or write anything that will last? And I say this as a totally undecided non-Calvinist non-Arminian mostly traditionalist believer.

James

And Max, I am sorry if that comes across curt and abrupt. It was not meant that way.
I guess my concern is this: I see two "factions" who are intent on arriving at the same destination by different readings of the map almost coming to blows when their paths intersect or closely parallel en route to the narrow gate.
Having read works of Arminius and Calvin and subsequent takes through the ages before and after on similar/same topics, I find a lot of fruit in both those vines and in both I find a conclusiveness that I am uncomfortable with because I believe we all still see darkly
Does that make any sense?
I have close friends who are decidedly and firmly in one camp or other they all still work with me in the effort to share the gospel and I don't see any need for acrimony, honestly.

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