« Sharing your faith? Well, maybe not like this | Main | New Calvinism gets reviewed by young British Baptist Calvinist »

Dec 13, 2013

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Tim Rogers

I now have another Baptist school that I can direct my daughter to with confidence of a quality education.

cb scott

Tim Rogers,

Let me state clearly, if you do send your daughter to BPC, she will receive two things that I believe you would desire:

1). She will be strengthened in the same biblical gospel and worldview that you and your wife have taught her from birth.

2). She will receive an education from a biblical worldview perspective that will enable her to better serve the Lord Jesus to advance the Kingdom in any and all endeavors she undertakes by the calling of God, to the glory of God.

Lastly, if I am here at BPC, I shall seek to watch over her, as I try to do for every student here, as if she were my own. On that you have my word.

Bill Mac

Tim: Why were you not confident of the quality of the education at BP under its last president?

cb scott

BTW Tim Rogers,

Let me state that everything I stated in my first comment is based on the fact that we now have a president at BPC who will live by a biblical worldview, lead according to a biblical worldview, teach by a biblical worldview and expect all who serve under his watch to do the same.

In addition, it is highly refreshing to be affiliated with a Baptist state convention wherein the Executive Director is unashamedly committed to living and leading according to a biblical worldview and openly supports those within the parameters of his watch who do the same.

Frankly, it is my contention that the Georgia Baptist Convention may very well become the new, pioneer-trailblazer state convention affiliated with the SBC in evangelism, missions, and the call to men, women, boys and girls around the world to repent, believe the biblical gospel, take up the cross, and follow Jesus until He returns.

That is my hope. That is my prayer. That is what I am willing to give my life toward. I believe it is a wonderful time to be a Georgia Baptist. I cannot help but think of Paul's words from 1 Corinthians 16:9 wherein he stated, "For a wide door for effective service has been opened to me, and there are many adversaries."

Max

cb scott,

Thank you for your perspective on BPC. I (reluctantly) follow and sometimes participate in various blogs and have found that your comments too often make too much sense, unlike the endless chatter of others in our ranks who just don't get it.

It is indeed refreshing to hear that some of our SBC-affiliated colleges are holding their ground against popular movements. So many in my region have surrendered to that which attracts students at all costs. I join you in praying that BPC will equip a new generation of believers who "will call to men, women, boys and girls around the world to repent, believe the biblical gospel, take up the cross, and follow Jesus until He returns."

There are indeed many adversaries to Kingdom work in our day. Unfortunately, you can find them in the household of faith. The counterfeit camps with the genuine. May new graduates of BPC have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the church as they venture into the world to make an authentic stand for Christ. It may very well be a tougher stand than we had in our generation, brother.

cb scott

Bill Mac,

The answer to your question is in the Christian Index article presented here in Peter's post:

"Simoneaux spent his brief tenure pulling the college back from the brink of academic and financial collapse, including the school being put on probation in June 2012 by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. The college remains fully accredited to award associate and baccalaureate degrees."

The former president was a transitional president who had to spend his energy trying to bring the institution back to life. There was little time available to focus on a higher quality of education and ministry that would excel above the norm for Christian, liberal arts colleges.

By the grace of Holy God, BPC is now on solid academic footing with SACS. Our enrollment is up. We have a new president who is an adherent to a biblical worldview.

He also strongly and unashamedly embraces historic Baptist theology, principles, practice, and polity. That in and of itself, is very refreshing to me.

Based on the above, it is my contention that Tim Rogers or any other Southern Baptist father of sons and daughters can with integrity state:

"I now have another Baptist school that I can direct my daughter to with confidence of a quality education."

cb scott

Max,

Thank you for your kind words.

I truly believe the future may well bring the best of times for Brewton-Parker College as a support institution to local churches in sending well equipped workers into the harvest.

This has been my earnest prayer since Dr. Searcy asked me to consider joining the transition team at BPC. I will admit that the challenges and struggles have been great and sometimes disheartening. However, God, has once again, illustrated to me that He is truly "The One Mighty God" and as Gabriel stated to Mary long ago, ". . . nothing will be impossible with God."

Tim Rogers

Bill Mac,

Let me answer you question as it seems to be one that is a fair one due to my statement. First, I was not looking at BPC even after Dr.Simoneaux became President because everyone knew he was there to stabilize it. Dr. Simoneaux did an excellent job getting BPC stabilized and on track to moving BPC to the forefront of a Baptist Liberal Arts education. The previous administrations were, shall we say, not as conservative as my preferences.

Thus, we now have a man moving into the Presidents position that took Liberty Theological Seminary and changed the name to Liberty BAPTIST Theological Seminary. The seminary tripled in growth under his leadership. He went to a school no one heard of and grew that school and saw the increase of that schools enrollment. This was done without compromising the strong stand on the Scriptures and promoting the doctrine we all know as the Baptist Identity.

I promise you Bill Mac we have serious problems within the higher christian education system we give our Baptist dollars to support. What has already gone moderate to liberal only give historical reference to Baptist identity. The current seminary entities seem to give more credibility to a Presbyterian model of church governance than to the congregational biblical model, we have called "Baptist". I give you a prophecy I believe will come true. Within 10 years, if we continue down the road we are on, we will have at best 3 seminaries that will resemble a Baptist understanding of congregational governance.

cb scott

"Within 10 years, if we continue down the road we are on, we will have at best 3 seminaries that will resemble a Baptist understanding of congregational governance."

Maybe 10 years if a couple of current seminary presidents maintain their positions into their late 70s-early 80s. May longevity and good health be upon them is my prayer.

Bill Mac

Tim: Is there evidence that Presbyterian polity is being taught at any of our seminaries?

Just to save time, I understand that many people don't like the world elder, and don't think a church with multiple elders can also be congregational, and think plural eldership is part of the Calvinist surge in the SBC. I also understand that there may be some churches out there that are effectively working under an elder-rule model.

What I want to know is how and where Presbyterian polity is specifically being taught in our seminaries. If it exists, it has to be tracable to a source. That seems to be the only way such a thing, if it exists, can be corrected.

peter lumpkins

Bill Mac,

To ask if there's any evidence that "Presbyterian polity is being taught" at any of our seminaries seems extremely argumentative to me. You're not an ignorant man, Bill Mac. You very well know that the focus or perhaps the nuance of a notion being either neglected or eclipsed over time can ultimately diminish the notion altogether. Thus, to ask whether "Presbyterian polity" is "being taught" is the wrong question and maybe even an irrelevant one. The quick answer is no, "Presbyterian polity" per se is not "being taught." But to deny an actual visible, and demonstrable flirtation with some type of Presbyterian-like polity seems either ignorant on one hand or head-in-sand on the other. Even Al Mohler has made this statement if I recall correctly.

As for "not liking" the word "elder," care to demonstrate that assertion, Bill Mac? Why would any Bible student dislike the term elder? Nor does any I know deny plural elders are necessarily anti-congregational. On the other hand, do you deny many are employing the term "elder-led" when the obvious practice fits more "elder-ruled"?

Bill Mac

Peter: I think Tim's prophecy is an implication that a presbyterian-like polity that he believes is growing in the SBC has its roots in some of our seminaries. If that is true, then we should be able to trace it back there. I suspect that at whatever level it exists in the SBC, it is not finding its source in the seminaries but rather from high profile adherents like MacDonald.

I think in the current climate of strife between calvinists and non-calvinists, people are suspicious of the word elder and of course our own BFM dropped the word elder in favor of pastor.

Nor does any I know deny plural elders are necessarily anti-congregational.

Technically, I'm sure this is true, but I have been in many a conversation, some here, where people simply do not believe that there are elder-led, congregationally ruled churches. They believe it is just a smokescreen for elder-rule. Or at least they believe elder-led is the exception.

As to your last question, I don't know about the word "many", but that is more my own ignorance than that I distrust your assertion. I live far, far away from the bible belt. I'm sure it happens, but as you know, I've often asserted that non-Calvinist mega-churches are essentially elder-ruled.

Tim Rogers

Bill,

I not only believe "Presbyterian polity" is being taught in our seminaries, I know it is being taught. If it were not I would be up in arms b/c the seminaries are not doing what they are supposed to be doing. Now, the better question from you should be "Tim, what evidence do you have that Presbyterian polity is being promoted as the best form of church governance in our seminaries?" Well, Bill I am glad you asked. Just look at the graduates that are tearing churches all to pieces coming into the congregational polity churches and changing it to a strict elder-run polity. That is my evidence.

Bill Mac

Tim: Evidence would be textbooks, lecture notes, syllabi, etc. Surely if it is being taught, there must be some concrete evidence. Correlation (if it exists) is not causation.

But I agree with you that if non-congregational polity is being taught in any of our seminaries, then it should be stopped.

Max

Whether or not certain SBC seminaries are teaching non-congregational polity, it is increasing clear that they are not discouraging the tremendous influence non-SBC proponents of such governance are having on SBC life. Piper, Keller, Driscoll, etc. might as well be SBC seminary professors - reformed seminarians put as much (or more) focus on their teachings as they do classroom instruction.

Tim Rogers

Bill,

Once again, it may be I am not clearly communicating, I want you to understand what I am saying.

I am not opposed to presbytery governance being taught in our seminaries. When Dr. Patterson came to SEBTS he was accused by the state paper editor of indoctrination. There was an editorial that stated Dr. Patterson was going to have professors do away with teachings of Bultmann and other German theologians that taught the neo-orthodoxy doctrine. Patterson responded by saying he was not doing away with those theologians he was going to teach them but he was also introducing conservative theologians and comparing them with those of the neo-orthodox background. Then he would show why "that dog won't hunt".

That is what I am saying is not happening now. It is evident that certain seminaries are promoting the presbytery governance over against the congregational form of governance. The evidence is not in the classroom notes, but in the promotion of speakers and the likes that come on campus. When you have a speaker on campus that talks about his elders that he surrounds himself with and never speaks about training deacons, guess what you get from those who graduate? This ain't rocket science.

eric

I googled the term to try and find a definitive answer.
Is the majority Baptist view that a church with Elder leaders is NOT a congregational form of Governance?

eric

I should have asked "CAN NOT" be a Congregational.....

peter lumpkins

Eric,

I'm not sure what your inquiry is about. Our Baptist heritage is virtually exclusively congregational polity. While the term "elder" has been in use in Baptist life--and still alive when the 1925 BF&M was adopted--overwhelmingly "elder" was used a) synonymous with "pastor" and b) restricted to a single pastor. With minor exceptions one finds "plurality of elders" language but it seems clear few substantial instances may be cited in Baptist life where 'plurality of elders' was used in a "ruling" or even "leading" sense. If you'd like to view what evidence exists, I'd recommend you begin with 9Marks which exploits as much as possible the notion of elder rule-led.

With that, I am...
Peter

eric

The reformed Baptist church I attend has a plurality of elders as leaders.

We vote on the elders, deacons, budget, etc.

Is that a congregational form or are all churches with a plurality of elders classified as another form?

peter lumpkins

Have a blessed Christmas Eric...

Scott Shaver

I would say that prior to 2000 in the SBC a "plurality of elder" model was virtually nonexistent in SBC churches.

The comments to this entry are closed.