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Jul 19, 2012

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Tim Rogers

Peter,

You violated your 1000 word limit. :) Great job in placing the facts before us. It appears that JW has now told the world that Dr. Moore, Ware, Akin, and others are not Calvinists. You think we should inform them? :)

Christian

All I can say after reading this is to repeat what one of my pastors said, "What is happening in the SBC isn't even Christian!" Not only is there an "elephant in the room", there is also a "snake in the grass".

Mary

Tim, The SBC elite like declaring Moore, Akin et al not Calvinists so as to point to evidence that the Calvinists are not really taking over. It's a way to deceive people into thinking the Calvinists really mean no harm.

Lydia

"It appears that JW has now told the world that Dr. Moore, Ware, Akin, and others are not Calvinists. You think we should inform them? :)"

This is one of their great dilemma's, Tim. One that many of us at ground zero have seen for years. They are Calvinists depending on the audience. Not Calvinist when convenient.

A bigger problem for them is a lot of the push back to the Trad position is coming from OUTSIDE the SBC. It is not really the "family fight" some think it is. We failed to notice for a long time the outside influences (as in other denominations) on our young. This shows itself in such things as church polity, too.

Think about it, some have linked to Whites critique of Rogers' book. My position is simplistic as in, of course White disagrees. Should that be a factor? Evidently, it is to our YRR. And that is scary and how far it has gone.

It is like their acceptance of Piper's doings with Driscoll and now Doug Wilson. Piper should have NO credibility (nevermind scream of the damned and Christian hedonism to name a few) but he does because.....he is Calvinist.

Lydia

"Finally, James White categorically states that Calvinists who reject Limited Atonement—that is, Calvinists who are 4 Point Calvinists—are nothing more or less than 1 Point Calvinists. He insists every Calvinist he's talked to, when pressed, will end up affirming only the P on the classic TULIP."

This is blowing my mind. I would think SBC YRR would not want his critique used against Rogers. He is ruining their game.

Jeremy Crowder

I would like to thank Peter Lumpkins for regularly taking on James White. Many of us readers cheer for someone to use a platform to say what many of us have long thought. He is a bully and like all bullies wants to force people to agree with him and fight on his terms. Your right not to debate him and right to expose how he bullies people. If a person says they are a four point calvinist that should end discussion unless they can prove otherwise, same with being an Arminian, and same with being a Traditionalist. When people call people Semi-P. or accuse them of lying they should be ashamed of the unChristian conduct. Soul Competency is a historic Baptist stance one regarding religious freedom from the government. However I think we need to expand it to include freedom not to be a Calvinist by force in the SBC by signing an abstract or allowing SBC paid employees to accuse Pastors of SBC supporting Churches of not being honest. This whole issue is related in spirit to the history of Baptists which is rooted in relgious freedom.

Chris Gilliam

The covert and overt aggressive will claim you are picking a fight by your simple reporting. Keep reporting.
Cheers,
Chris

peter lumpkins

All,

'Preciate the encouragement. Lord bless...


With that, I am...
Peter

Luke

Now why did I listen to that clip. I KNEW it would cause me to go away shaking my head. I think someone needs to refund JW the money he spent on Carnegie's course. I'm glad you were willing to listen to the entire program cause I would not have made it through it.

Thanks for your work Peter.

Luke

Craig

James White? I forgot all about that guy. Which places me neatly into the two categories of people in the world: Those who forgot about James White after his 15 minutes of fame expired 2 years ago...and those who have never heard of him.

Tim Rogers

Peter,

I just saw your update in your footnotes concerning JW's claim to still be an adjunctive professor at GGBTS. I saw Dr. Jeff Iorg, President of GGBTS, in the exhibit hall and I re-introduced myself to him. The purpose of this conversation was to ask specifically about James White. I saw on his blog that he was advertising a bout a class JW told us he was teaching for GGBTS. Dr. Iorg told me that they had requests from 2 or 3 students in the Phoenix area that informed the leadership about a class White would be teaching on Islamic theology. Their question was that if they could get credit for attending the class and the school allows a professor to oversee the course and assign books for those taking the course to offer a report before they could get credit. According to Dr. Iorg, this course was a course White was teaching to his congregation.

As you say in your footnote update, not quite the position of an adjunctive professor to teach without a contract on a voluntary basis.

Max

I love it when the YRR speak highly of James White! They are digging their own hole having him in their tribe. White would never give an unbiased read or review to a book of this sort. He attempted to crucify Dave Hunt in reviews/debates re: Hunt's book "What Love is This: Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God." These folks simply do not want weaknesses in their theology exposed. Brother Rogers offers a sincere testimony of his personal journey out of Calvinism that should not be ignored. A man with a personal experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.

Thank you Peter for your stand and for using your gift to communicate in such a time as this.

Mary

Color me suprised, Jimmie (not a real doctor he just pretends to be one on the internet) still fudging on his resume.

David Benjamin Hewitt

Dr. Lumpkins:

I do not wish to cloud your comment stream unnecessarily, but I did want to ask but two questions coupled with an observation:

I noticed that you didn't cite any of the exegesis James White did during those two Dividing Line webcasts and the interaction that White did with Roger's understanding of John 6, John 12, and 2 Peter 3 (to name a few). Why is this? Since we SBCers are people of the Book, wouldn't showing that James White was being inconsistent in his interpreting of Scripture be the most surefire way to demonstrate why people shouldn't be paying attention to him?

Thanks in advance,
dbh

peter lumpkins

David,

Thanks. For the simple reason, White did not interact but little, if any, with Rogers specifically on anything. As I said in one of the footnotes, White's "review" was a virtual fill-in-the-blank "review". That is, his comments could have applied to any non-Calvinist piece. Supply any name you wish. That's how generic White's engagement was. I'm not trying to be nebulous, just factual. Some preachers open their Bibles, read a text, and, utilizing the text as a springboard to get started, they just go from text to text, subject to subject, carving out their own path regardless of the text they employed. White's "review" would be similar to that preacher's sermon.

With that, I am...
Peter

George P

It continues to amaze me the huge blind spot White has regarding his anti-social and childish behavior toward anyone he disagrees with. It's obvious his "Petey" thing is an attempt to be condescending and belittle you, but clearly unchristlike things, but in his mind, he can do no wrong and he is justified in his awful treatment of anyone(and we've seen how awful his treatment of others is).

Couple that with his seeming belief that he alone decides who enters heaven, and you've got the makings of a megalomaniac.

Kyle B. Gulledge

One of my biggest problems with Calvinism (other than the doctrine itself) is the arrogance that most of it's followers show.
Arrogance, haughtiness -pride is sin and not becoming of a follower of Christ. But perhaps it is acceptable of a follower of Calvin.
Keep up the good work, Peter! It is not the applause of man that is important, but the approval of our Lord.

Barry King

In the interest of full disclosure: I believe the doctrines of grace commonly denominated as five-point Calvinism. Furthermore, I have been personal friends with Ronnie Rogers for more than 20 years.
Finally, I have read Ronnie's book (I have an autographed copy) and I have listed to James White's review. My conclusion is that though I don't accept Ronnie's position, I can't fault his disposition. Though I do (broadly speaking) accept James White's theological position, I do sadly find fault with his disposition. Those of us who believe in grace should show some.

stan schmunk

Peter, I'm not SBC but I appreciate your work regarding Calvinism and especially James White. After listening to his comments on The Bible Answer Man where he stated that God both decrees and causes every evil act including the rape of young girls I've concluded that he is NOT a Christian. Rather he is a blasphemer and amateur proof-texter par excellence. I've been involved in the rescue and rehabilitation of under-age sex-slaves in Cambodia for 15 years with some being as young as 6 years. This man says that God decreed and caused those rapes, up to 10 times per night per girl, so that they would have purpose. This is vile blasphemy that can only have its root in Satan's dark heart.

Keep up your good work, Peter.

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