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Mar 01, 2012

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Tim Rogers

Brother Peter,

I am still looking but I seem to remember reading an article where Warren denies saying that he made this statement concerning our worship of the same God. Can't remember where I saw it but I will let you know when I find it.

If this is what he said his use of "Isa" in his inaugural prayer reveals a pattern.

Blessings,
Tim

peter lumpkins

My brother Tim,

Hinch's update in the link speaks to Warren’s denial claiming that they have the goods through thorough fact-checking. The problem with Warren I've observed is, he appears duplicitous and accommodating in positions he publicly takes (emphasis on appears). Recall Warren’s insistence less than a year ago about being influenced by Calvinism through his reading Jonathan Edwards and John Calvin when interviewed by J. Piper. Please. Could one honestly detect, through Warren's books and preaching, an influence of Reformed thinking? An influence from one of the most profound philosophers in the Colonial West--America's philosopher Edwards is called?

Closer to the truth is, I suspect Warren can no more comprehend Freedom of the Will than can I, along with most Calvinists--unless one has a background in philosophy, of course. 

In addition, recall Prop 8 (approx. 3 years ago) where Warren seemed to waffle on supporting it as well, denying he was for it after the media published his views and the homosexual community raised a stink. I posted a video on this site which shows him publicly stating support for Prop 8. Yet he denied he said he supported it and apologized to the gay critics.

For these reasons among others, it’s hard to take Warren’s denial about his provocative bridge to Muslims on its face. When men become bigger than life—and Warren is now both a legend and global celebrity—how tempting to think one may get away with theological murder. My money, I’m sad to say, is on Hinch. He seems both believable and credible. Nor do I suspect he’d openly say he had the goods if he didn’t.

Grace, brother.

With that, I am…

Peter

Tim B

Peter,

Rick sometimes does some things that I don't understand but I think you need to be careful before buying what the Rick Warren watchdogs feed you. These folks also accused him of promoting "chrislam" as well and were just flat out lying. They jumped him when he said that Christians had a measure of freedom in Syria. The recent CNN article "Why Christians in Syria are Angry" confirms what Warren said. They were wrong again. There is lecture over on the swbts web site provides some pretty interesting insight into Rick Warren. Google "How Anabaptists Shaped Rick Warren’s Understanding of the Great Commission & Discipleship" and watch the lecture when you get a chance.

Tim

Howell Scott

Peter,

Sometimes it's downright scary just how much we are on the same wavelength :-) I have a post up this morning entitled, "Were Van Impes Right About Rick Warren & Muslims." Last summer, the Van Impes broadcast a program in which they took both Warren and Robert Schuller to task over their advocacy of what has been dubbed "Chrislam," a blending or uniting of Christianity and Islam. Pressure was put on TBN and they pulled the rebroadcast of that particular program. The Van Impes saw that as censorship and pulled all their programming from TBN.

Bro. Tim is right that Warren, at the time, publicly stated that he was not advocating "Chrislam." That may or may not be true, depending on what the definitions of "was" and "not" and "Chrislam" are in Mr. Warren's mind. I was not able to find online the actual wording of the "King's Way" document, but if the OC Register reporting is accurate, then this bridge-building initiative is a bridge too far for those who want to still be Biblically orthodox Christians. To either implicitly or explicitly say that Muslims and Christians worship the same one God is patently false and unBiblical.

I'm no fans of the Van Impes, but perhaps they were onto something last summer when they began to speak out. I'll be curious to see if Dr. Albert Mohler or any other top SBC leaders raise this issue at all. If not, their silence will be deafening and telling. Thanks and God bless,

Howell

CASEY

TIM, I agree with you and PETER both. Years ago, Warren did seem to back away from the appearance of the Muslin god and Christian God being the same....however, since that time both Rick and his wife have made statements that would, again, lead you to that conclusion. This Orange County newspaper quote is recent and once again raises the question, "What does Rick Warren believe?"
Why can't Rick Warren be clear? Why is he misunderstood so frequently? When one of our Seminaries(SBC) was in the midst of change, we often sought clarifications of writings and public statements. made by some controversial profs. In many cases up to 15 pages were written to explain less than a 50 word comment. Really?
At some point you must conclude that the person is not very good at communicating the Gospel(and should, thus, find something else to do, since you don't want to confuse the flock) or he is in fact 'duplicitous' and should not be trusted. At some point Rick Warren loses his 'benefit of the doubt' status as a brother and becomes one who needs to be looked at with extreme caution.

stuart houston
selahV

Notoriety and power are strange bedfellows to humility and meekness. They really do not sleep well together. selahV

peter lumpkins

Stuart,

Yes. It's listed as one of the links at the end of the original post.

With that, I am...
Peter

Tim B

I think the confusion of whether God Muslims and Christians worship the same God relates to our common heritage. Both Muhammad and Christianity believe we worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We insist that their God as they describe Him is not the same God as ours because he is not the same God as the Bible describes Him. At the same time, would we be wrong to say that we believe in the same God (ie the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) but they have a distorted understanding of who He is. Perhaps the comparison is not unlike the "Unknown God" that Paul appealed to. Interestingly, Muslims believe we worship the same God but believe that they in fact have the fuller understanding. They would say that both Christian and Muslim are "people of the book."

I don't have a problem saying to them that we do not worship the same God if God is as they describe Him. I also do not have a problem with saying, "You believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so do I....but you're skewed in your understanding of who He is." I think a lot of this becomes a matter of semantics.

I do think it interesting that when Muslims pray their tahajjud prayer(the prayer they pray in the middle of the night) they pray, "O God, have me enter from the door of truth, and also have me exit from the door of truth too, and provide me with assitance from you." Among all religions, it is primarily Muslims all around the world are having nighttime dreams that point them to churches, Christians and Missionaries in search of that truth. Maybe God is answering their prayer.

peter lumpkins

Tim,

What inhibits us from fellowshipping with Hindus as well? They too have a "skewed" understanding of God. Mormons? Certainly. JWs? You bet. They worship the "unknown god" don't they? However, they even get his name right in the OT. I don't think that's going to cut it, Tim.

With that, I am...
Peter

Alan Davis

Well written article Peter

peter lumpkins

Thanks Alan...

With that, I am...
Peter

lmalone

Tim B, Some research on Islam would be helpful with this issue. You can start here as an excellent source....A Christian American Islamic scholar teaching in England who also debates Muslims.

http://youtu.be/gy_YrhJRYjA (Is Allah God?)

His channel on youtube is Pfanderfilms. Lots and lots of short videos that are very helpful in understanding Islam and the Qu'ran.

Tim B

I think we all have problems with the title we use for God. The new testament uses the term theos which is Greek. English speakers call Him God which isn't in any original languages. If you search out the origins of the term we're on about as shaky ground as the muslims are with "allah". By the way, Did I say anything about fellowshipping with muslims? With that,I am done.

peter lumpkins

Tim,

You are correct. You didn't say anything about "fellowshipping" with Muslims. You did query, however, "At the same time, would we be wrong to say that we believe in the same God... but they have a distorted understanding of who He is" and that such a distortion is perhaps more a matter of "semantics" which seems to me to imply some form of fellowship. If it does not I don't know your point, especially on a post which implicates Warren in going too far in his bridge-building with Muslims.

In addition, your example of the Greek "theos" and the English "God," comparing that to the difference we have with Muslim theism is absurd. The Muslim God can in no substantial sense be paralleled to Christian Trinitarian theism, and the suggestion of it seems only to demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of both. Sorry.

With that, I am...
Peter

J. K. Jones

Peter L.,

Thnkas for the link. I hope you will give us more links to the unfolding controversy.

Warren can be criticized for many (!) things, but I am inclined to wait and see on this one.

I am praying he will clarify in his own words in a very public way. I pray that either he will show himself Christian or be open and honest about any compromises he has made.

Can anyone find "The Kng's Way" document?

JK

J. K. Jones

I am amazed at my inability to type today. I apologize.

Stephen

"I think we all have problems with the title we use for God." No thanks to the Medieval Jews, who started that superstitious pointing-substitution in the Masoretic Text which gave rise to the sorta inaccurate transliteration Jehovah used in the KJV, which was terribly over corrected in modern translations with this LORD nonsense, completely de-personalizing away the NAME of our God, Yahweh (Exodus 6:3, 15:3, 33:19, Isaiah 42:8 etc.).

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