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Feb 29, 2012

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Alan Davis

I was one of those who took exception to Brother Whitts piece. In the original piece he wrote he also gave a long list of how Southern Baptist he was...raised in sbc, dad a pastor etc. Seemed like endless genealogies to me. No one has to prove they are sbc with a long list of sbc qualifications and I found it actually rather sbc snobbish to do so. That given I also could list a long line of sbc qualifications which I won't do because I think it is silly. But I will just continue to fall in the camp that actually believes God is Sovereign in all things and that the Bible is REALLY inerrant. The real creeper story is the audacity of many SBC pastors who still call themselves SBC and really are Free Will Baptist.

peter lumpkins

 

Why, of course, Adam.  Many of us are those whom Dr. Mohler also described in the same document as heretics. He said:

There are amongst us those who are more Calvinist and those who are less. But the Baptist Faith & Message excludes Arminianism. The SBCs founders identified Arminianism as a heresy they sought to confront” (p.41, emphasis added).

The times I've been called an Arminian by your company has long ago left my memory. So, I guess poor souls like me who, along with the Abstract of Principles, fully accept “the free will” of creatures whom God makes in His image are alas, heretics…theological nomads with no home for us to dwell in Southern Baptist life.

With that, I am…

Peter

Alan Davis

I think you know what I mean when I say Free Will Baptist (a total other denomination)Many have taken there anti-Calvinistic stance so far that they have very similar doctrines with the Free Will Denomination. It is amazing to me how some with-in our ranks hold to the perseverance of the believer (or maybe more aptly put eternal security) but don't want to acknowledge God's sovereignty in their salvation.
And by the way it is Alan.

Alan Davis

I would like to add that though I found the listing in Brother Brads piece of his SBC qualifications sbc snobbish. I do not believe Brother Brad meant it that way. Just a clarification there.

david Jacks

All I can say is: "there is a creepy Anabaptism amongst us"

peter lumpkins

Alan,

Pardon me for the name mistake.

Well, no I didn't know what you meant. If you could name a single instance among the "many" contemporary Southern Baptists pastors who, as you indicated, "really are Free Will Baptist" in perspective, I'd like to know. I'll be glad to write a main post concerning their views.

Nor do you have it theologically correct to imply that though most SBs embrace perseverance of the saints that they somehow are necessarily deficient in their understanding that God is fully sovereign in their salvation while refusing to acknowledge what they perceive as an unbiblical view of sovereignty so many Calvinists embrace by laying a meticulous, deterministic template upon Scripture.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Off to church...

With that, I am...

Peter

Jeff

Isn't Brad Whitt talking about Calvinism and plural elders, while Mohler is most likely talking about multi-site churches?

Stephen

I really wish multi-site churches would just own up and call them what they are, fledgling (or not so fledgling!) presbyteries and dioceses.

Of course, plurality of elders/pastors/overseers within an autonomous, congregational church has been around Baptist life all the way back since the London Confessions.

peter lumpkins

Jeff,

Mohler expressed his reservation concerning multisites, but there is no indication he meant to equate it with what he dubbed a 'creeping presbyterianism'; indeed he also mentioned a 'creeping episcopalianism'. Even so, the obvious point is Whitt expressed his observation that congregationalism was corroding and giving way to some form of presbyterianism, the very observation Mohler now makes. Hence, Whitt's exoneration from the very community who ridiculed him.

With that, I am...
Peter

Alan Davis

I am not sure how Calvinists are holding an unbiblical view of God's Soverignty on salvation. I find the fact of God's total soverignty over all the affairs of man very biblical. How do you perceive this as unbiblical as you wrote:
"Nor do you have it theologically correct to imply that though most SBs embrace perseverance of the saints that they somehow are necessarily deficient in their understanding that God is fully sovereign in their salvation while refusing to acknowledge what they perceive as an unbiblical view of sovereignty so many Calvinists embrace by laying a meticulous, deterministic template upon Scripture".
I think it lines up biblical just fine, one particular place would be John 1:12-13. Which is one of the verses Brother Brad used in his article, however he left off verse 13.
Sounds like you have found a place I can not find; the end of God's sovereignty. I haven't run out that far yet.

Alan Davis

Also Peter, I wasnt offended by the wrong name, just tounge in cheek brother. I also have a new name for this thread (for myself,lol) "Taking my Lumpkins" (tounge in cheek again)

Bill Harrell

Peter:

It is ludicrous to me that Dr. Mohler, of all people would say that he is concerned about a creeping Presbyterianism in our midst given the fact that Southern Seminary has become the center of Calvinism in the SBC. He, more than anyone else is responsible for this perception. When he identifies himself as a five-point Calvinist and when he speaks on so many Presbyterian programs as the President of Southern Seminary and a recognized spokesman for Southern Baptists, what would he expect to be the perception? Also, when he states that Calvinism is the future of the SBC he should not be surprised when a creeping Presbyterianism surfaces. His use of Presbyterians at Southern, his close association with avowed Calvinists and Presbyterians in particular makes me wonder how in the world he could even make such a statement. Those of us out here in the SBC have known this for a long time and now it seems that he wants to act surprised that "creeping Presbyterianism" is present as if he had nothing to do with it. Sorry Brother Al, but the die is cast and you have been the one to make it so. If Dr. Mohler is so concerned about "creeping Presbyterianism", then he should take the lead in reversing the trend.

Bill Harrell

lmalone

"Mohler expressed his reservation concerning multisites, but there is no indication he meant to equate it with what he dubbed a 'creeping presbyterianism'; indeed he also mentioned a 'creeping episcopalianism'"

Especially since his church, Highview under Ezell's leadership, has been a pioneer here in multi site church campi.

If he has a reservation, he sure went along with it for a long time.

Max

Bill Harrell writes "His use of Presbyterians at Southern, his close association with avowed Calvinists and Presbyterians in particular makes me wonder how in the world he could even make such a statement."

My very thought exactly when I read this piece! If Dr. Mohler is concerned about "creeping Presbyterianism" in SBC ranks, he shouldn't be such an active participant in the creeping process. By frequently sharing the conference stage with Tim Keller, a leading Presbyterian influencer of young Southern Baptists, Dr. Mohler effectively endorses Keller's theology, church governance, church planting methods and missiology in SBC ranks (= creeping Presbyterianism).

Robert Vaughn

Brad: "It’s obvious when I see who is lifted up as the future of our convention — the hip and cool up-and-comers with whom I have little in common — that my breed is in danger of becoming extinct."

It's curious (or maybe not) how often institutions "lift up" those who promote the institution as opposed to those who promote what the institution stands for.

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