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Jun 07, 2011

Comments

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Scott

You referred to this as a "timely" article, but there was absolutely no new ground plowed in this article. It is essentially a reprint from when the housing market was still booming. I realize that some are still debating SBC funding of Acts 29 churches, but all of this material has been in the public eye for a couple of years.

peter lumpkins

Scott,

Thanks. Yes, I did characterize David's article as timely. But being timely doesn't necessarily imply breaking "new ground." Instead, indicative of your observation that "some are still debating SBC funding of Acts 29 churches," the info is arguably more relevant (i.e. "timely") presently than a few years back. This especially is so since we now know NAMB is using AAEO to support at least some Acts 29 Network church plants.

Hope this helps.

With that, I am...
Peter

Rick Patrick

I can find "Baptist" in the Bible. But I cannot find "Acts 29."

Debbie Kaufman

Amen Rick.

Steve Evans

As I shared in another place on this blog, I find it very disconcerting that the NAMB is waiting until after the convention to post the numbers for the AAEO. Could it be that many churches are waking up to the truth about where these monies are going? I certainly hope so. Keep up the good work, Peter!

Mark

I can find "wine" in the Bible, but I cannot find "abstinence."

;)

Rick Patrick

Mark,

Here's both wine and abstinence in the same verse:

"Be not filled with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit."
(Ephesians 5:18)

Wine's there all right, but we're told not to fill ourselves with it. In Proverbs we're told not even to look at it. It seems to me that, at the very least, we should not be promoting the home brewing of beer at church events, or partnering with the types of churches who do in starting new congregations.

Mark

Rick,

You put words in quotes as if to indicate that those particular words are not found in the Bible. All I did is reply on your own grounds. Now you are moving the posts.

Now in your reply you say we should not be promoting home brewing of beer because it seems that way to you. Along the same thought process we should not promote cooking in our homes because the Bible teaches gluttony as a sin.

Make sense? Of course not.

Thanks for the dialogue.

David R. Brumbelow

Peter,
Thanks for posting this. I believe Baptists need to be aware of such information. May God guide us on this issue in the days ahead. May we stand strong in our biblical convictions.
David R. Brumbelow

Rick Patrick

Mark,

Sorry to confuse you with my quotes. I was really just wanting to emphasize certain words -- like with italics. Next time, I'll try CAPS. To be clear, I find the words BAPTIST and ACTS but no 29th chapter. It was really intended to be a pithy way of saying that I believe Baptists are more biblical in ecclesiology, soteriology, missiology and ministry methodology than Acts 29ers.

By the way, since you mentioned moving the posts, to equate cooking supper for your family with the brewing of intoxicating beverages is a stretch, to say the least. I'm okay with cooking in our homes, as long as we're not cooking meth, not just because it is illegal, but because it is mind-altering and dangerous to consume. No bacon cheeseburger combo has ever impaired my ability to drive home.

Out of curiosity, do you really defend teaching people how to brew beer at a church-sponsored event?

Davey

Interesting that almost every reference in the Bible to alchocol is positive. What the Bible sees as positive, why should the SBC see as negative. Always dangerous to add to Scripture regardless how loyal one may be to a particular denomination.

peter

Davey,

Well, I personally don't find it interesting, my brother, because "almost every reference" in the Bible to alcohol is decidedly not positive. And, unless you're prepared to deal with the evidences I clearly maintain in my book, Davy, I don't think you really should show back up here suggesting David is "adding to Scripture".

With that, I am...
Peter

Davey

Hi Peter,
Well I have not had the privilege of reading your book. I was involved in a detailed study of this issue at a previous church and we examined books written on both sides of the subject. One of the conclusions that we could not escape was how often God's blessing was somehow connected to wine/alchocol. And the account in John 2 seems to indicate that one of the reasons that the cheap wine was saved for later was that folks would have so enjoyed (and by implication be so relaxed) after the good wine that they would not mind the cheaper (not as good) wine. I came from a dogmatic abstinence position after carefully considering the many passages of Scripture that associate wine with blessing. The Scripture was the first thing. Recently I have read The Search for God and Guinness which was a very fun book to read. And I look forward to reading, Drinking with Luther and Calvin. Regardless, I hope that my abstinence brothers will be so kind to consider their non-abstinence brothers as indeed brothers. So often it seems that Alchocol has been portrayed as the "devil's juice" that any person partaking is not considered a Christian. I know that is not your position but antecdotal. Even when I was dogmatically abstinence in my views, I could not escape the godliness of some folks that enjoyed alchocol in moderation. Thanks for letting me visit your site. I look forward to your book.

peter

Davy,

Thanks. First, I'm glad you have actually studied the issue out for yourself. Too many I've come across appear unwilling at all to dive further into the issue than a concordance run. Second, you'll be glad to know I do not think one is not a Christian because one is not abstinent from alcoholic drink. Being a believer depends upon one's response to the biblical gospel.

Third, however, I do think if a believer is not abstinent, then the non-abstinent believer both embraces and practices an inconsistent Christian ethic. Hence, imbibing creates a barrier to one's sanctification not to mention may pose barriers to others as they move along in the Christian life.

Finally, I am very glad not to mention honored you'd consider my book. It's not a perfect book but one I think makes a small contribution to the conversation. Even more, David Brumbelow is authoring a fine book on this subject as well which, from every indication I can see, will overshadow my book and rightly so. His arguments are very compelling and will need to be addressed by those who think they've laid to rest the abstinence position. Hence, you would do well to consider his book when it comes out this Fall.

Thanks again Davy.

With that, I am...
Peter

Davey

Peter,
Couple of other things then I will leave you alone for today. I read over my previous comments. Writing quickly leads one into grammatical waste lands :). I will not re-read this one.
Thank you for your gracious attitude. I should also say that I hope my non abstinent fellow brothers will not use thelr "liberties" as an occasion for the flesh. Too often, I think, some of my likeminded brothers seem to be more excited about their perceived liberties; drinking, smoking, movies etc than they are the gospel. As a fellow struggling saint, I know that I might fall off the horse into error on either side of any issue. So my statements about either "group" are written with my own weaknesses in mind. When I was a tee-totaler I had an arrogant attitude towards those "liquor heads." Now that I am not a tee-totaler, I must remember grace towards those that differ and thoughtfulness in the way I use, what I perceive to be, a biblical blessing (drinking in moderation). Someone once said, "Non-Christians drink to forget. Christians drink to remember the blessings of God." When I occassionally enjoy a beer then I pray that I might remember the kindness of my gracious Lord to one that was His enemy but by grace am now His friend. And He has given us all things (that are not forbidden) to be enjoyed to His glory. Glad to have found you today and will check you out again.

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