« Seminary Official Identified Who Cut Ties With "Dr" James White! by Peter Lumpkins | Main | Tim Rogers Makes My New Appointment Public by Peter Lumpkins »

Mar 28, 2011

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Scott Oakland

Peter, The point you make in your footnotes about my blog's response looks like a lot (so I mixed you up with the commenter?) but omits the refutations I gave here....

[link deleted]
and at Dave Armstrong's blog here...

[link deleted]

Your presentation here seems to include as its main premise: You asked Dr White a question about Dr. White's teaching status and he hasn't answered it to your satisfaction. But does he have to? He's content to leave his entry at Golden Gate remain as is. We know he doesn't have any current courses there running at the moment. I think everyone admits that. But his "current status" isn't bothering him in the least, apparently. It doesn't bother me, either - for the reasons I explained in the thread above. And, what the irony is, it apparently isn't bothering Golden Gate either. If it was, the web site would be erased of all references to Dr. White! Not only that, but we would have official statements right from GG stating it! Notice from the "smoking gun" video you refer to, that it was your friend who stood up on the floor of the SBC and asked this question regarding "confusion". Notice the President didn't initiate this - he was put on the spot by this guy and he fielded the question the best he could. It's obvious that the person who asked this question - who is also a poster of yours - was sent to ask that question in public eye - on camera - in order to "get" something on Dr. White. It was an old-fashioned SBC "set up". And now all of you are clinging desperately to this nine-month old video as proof of his current status. Who was really and truly confused about his status and why was the question asked? I truly don't believe anyone was ever "confused" about his status, nor does anyone really cares about his status there, except yourself and your friends who see a demon on every corner regarding Dr. White. All I have received as "proof" from your blog are statements like "I spoke with someone at GG stating that he won't teach again", or "Here is an email I received from GG" with nothing but the text copies & pasted, or "Here's a video from 9 mos. ago where the President says he's all done" (he never said that, by the way - it was a carefully-worded statement that said there were no plans to have him teach. "No plans made" in June 2010 does not equate to "he's gone" in March 2011). Again you have assumed the worse with no evidence to do so. All in an attempt to tar-and-feather Dr. White.

R.L. Adler

this is all a big misunderstanding...

whites bio should read "is an adjunct prophessor at Midwest Center for Theological Studies." source; http://www.mctsowensboro.org/event/2011-01-03-polemics-j-term-with-james-white/

see all that 'golden gate' stuff should be replaced with 'MWCTS'. and the 'greek, hebrew, theology' with 'polemics'. then we're kosher.

done and done.

peter lumpkins

Scott,

The fact is, you didn't deal with my post. You only looked foolish for saying the "only" answer I gave you was a video--something I definitively did not do!

No the main premise(s) of my post is/are that a) there is *no evidence* to suggest James White presently teaches at GGBTS; b) there is a lot of evidence to demonstrate he *does not* presently teach at GGBTS; c) yet, in the face of such evidence that White *does not* presently teach at GGBTS, you and James White insist you can still legitimately claim *James White presently teaches at GGBTS.*--quite an absurdity, I'd say.

Now unless you've got more than just a "oh yes he does too" statement to make, please run along.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

Scott,

I have no obligation to be a marquee for your personal blog. I linked your blog in my OP. No need to link yourself again here. Hence, I took the links out of your comment above.

With that, I am...
Peter

P.S. No, I'm not censoring you. So don't say it...

peter lumpkins

RL,

I don't disagree. I don't think it will happen unless someone forces White to do it, however. GGBTS is an accomplished, fully accredited seminary. It would be really be a big loss for a resume.

With that, I am...
Peter

Scott Oakland

Peter -

In your post you say: "And as honestly as I know how to put it, I cannot see calling James White’s Dividing Line program for him to answer such simple, straight forward questions. Calls should be reserved for questions which demand much more exchange and dialog, would the reader not agree?"

I don't understand something: if this issue is SO important to you and yours, why not just agree to go on his program (or, mine, for that matter). After all, he (and I) have invited you on our respective programs. Why would you care if the calls "should be reserved for questions which demand much more exchange and dialog". If you are right, and if this is such a slam-duck, you would surely make Dr White - and me - sound foolish....wouldn't you? Or, is it what I and many others already suspect...that you are afraid to do so because you would be embarrassed beyond belief? Since you cannot make your case here (I have already taken apart your reasoning 'six ways to sunday", it is highly unlikely that you'll be able to do so on a live talk shoe. And that's the rub isn't it? You would NEVER say yes to our invitations, because your whole world that you built here would come tumbling down like so many lego blocks. My suggestion: if you want to keep this charade going, at least provide some kind of real proof. Again, facts are stubborn things. AND, you never have dealt with any of my refutations which are manifold. All you offer are ghosts. Peter, I too have talked to many people who have verified that Dr White has NOT been "cut off" from GG. But I never offer it up as proof of anything, because it isn't. I don't need to resort to doing something so unprovable - my refutations stand yet unchallenged by anyone on this board.

Scott

peter lumpkins

Scott,

What's not to understand? The questions are easy to answer. Nor am I particularly concerned about "making" someone "sound foolish." Besides, honestly Scott, I'm sorry to say, you already sound foolish in the lame "defenses" you're making by changing the simple but true proposition "James White has taught at GGBTS" into the complex and misleading proposition "James White is teaching at GGBTS." And, you do so with full knowledge that you have--you know darn good and well James White not only is not teaching at GGBTS but also that James White has no positive indication from GGBTS that he will teach in the future. I think you know this to be so but you won't admit it.

Now, how many times and/or ways do I have to say: I am *not* coming on your podcast or James White's DL. Think anything you wish that I might be holding as an unspoken reason. In fact, I don't care what you think about my not doing so. Nor do I care what others say for crying out loud. We're not in Junior High anymore. Gosh... So, know I won't lose a single night's sleep over it.

Finally, if you want to waste blog space offering me yet more invitations...or JW wants to talk about how he invites me on his DL but I won't come and mock and call me "coward" etc, be my guest. I think that's swell. But, know another comment on this thread or any other thread at this blog will be posted with your "invitation" or mentioning JW's "invitation." I've fully answered it. And I ain't interested. Is that clear enough?

Have a good day.

With that, I am...
Peter

Chris Gilliam

Scott,

It is sad to say you sound like Sennacherib taunting. The FACT is James IS NOT currently teaching. To say so is dishonest. If I were to say I pastor X church whom I am not currently affiliated with, but have not burned a bridge, thus would be able to return if the Lord directed, I would be dishonest about my CURRENT status. There is not a church that is Godly that would accept that rationale as honest. I would not get a second look.

Sadly, more, is that it seems as one can dish out bad medicine but when the shoe is on the other foot, can't take it. To me this is childish. Kingdom work is far too important to be constantly defending one man. White assassinated Caner on misspeak. Now he is reaping what he has sown. Perhaps both should be casualties of spiritual warfare.

Finally, I would lend myself to reformed thinking, but the bombastic rhetoric James White uses and yourself, is frankly unbiblical. Your reflection of Jesus is not appealing.

Peter, I understand what your intentions are, but dear brother drop it. You have supplied evidence that demands a verdict and the verdict is clear. Your writing skills are far to great to worry over such trivial pursuits as this.

peter lumpkins

Chris,

All the links which were scattered through a few posts and comments come together here. Thanks, Chris; you make very good sense brother.

Have a great day in the Lord.

With that, I am...
Peter

R.L. Adler

Matt Chandler has said:

"I'm unapologetically Reformed, but nine times out of ten I cannot stand the Reformed community. I don't want to be around them. I don't want to read their blogs. They can be cannibalistic, self-indulgent, non-missional, and angry. It's silly and sad at the same time. Reformed doctrine should lead to a deep sense of humility and patience with others. How it produces such arrogance baffles me."


Now I see why they're like that, what with people like Doktor James White and this Scott guy for role models.

Scott Oakland

Chris, The analogy you gave is a poor one. Pastoring a church, and being an adjunct at a seminary, is two differeny things. Adjuncts come in and come out regularly, pastors do not. Here is a better analogy:

Someone hosts a podcast or blog, and has several contributors. (Gospel Coalition comes to mind). One of the contributors (person "X") has not posted anything in a while, say, a year. It would not be wrong to state that person "X" is a contributor to the blog. It doesn't imply that he posted something yesterday, last week, or a year ago, it is just that the blogger contributes.

However, in this particular instance, you are all not simply saying "James White is not currently teaching". We all agree that he isn't currently teaching a COURSE this semester. Being an adjunct does not require that to be true of someone. If you check any dictionary for a defintion of what an adjunct is, that will be evident to all. In fact, I'll provde a link for your convenience here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professors_in_the_United_States

That's why they call them "adjuncts". You are going well beyond that, insinuating or stating that he is "cut off" and that he will "never teach there again". It is an incredible leap of logic to deduce that conclusion from the evidence. Dave Armstrong has even stated on his blog that he may write GG a letter asking the question. Could that be because....there isn't enough evidence to make the claim you're making here?

Face the facts: you have offered up these evidences, and I have knocked them down like the straw men that they are. Rather, may I say, mudslinging does not replace evidence. I'd rather give Dr. White the benefit of the doubt. You all would rather convict him in this kangaroo court.

Maybe Dave will post this letter if and when he gets it. I'll be waiting...

Scott

Ryan

I certainly hope nonbelievers don’t wander to this site, and whatever site James White is using to engage in this little disagreement. I’m afraid this whole nonsense is a bad witness. If you have a disagreement, for goodness sake, call each other and handle it in private. Are you not both adults? You’re both carrying on and going back and forth like high school kids.

Dave Armstrong

I didn't even know that the President of GGBTS has stated that White wouldn't be teaching there in the foreseeable future. I learned that today from this post (somehow I missed it previously). Man! And these guys are still denying the facts? It's classic James White (and Whitehead) sophistry, sad to say. Scott reminds me of Baghdad Bob. Remember that guy? :-)

Dave

I don't get this. Doesn't White freely admit he is not CURRENTLY on staff at GG? Why is this a big deal? This is silly to me. Who is the official at GG that says he'll never come back there to teach? I think if you could provide that person's name it might help to clear all of this up - not to mention lend your blog some credibility.

SelahV Today

R.L. where did you get that Matt Chandler quote?

Ron Phillips, Sr.

Dave,

The dots have all been connected, but let me try to help: The official at the seminary is the President of GGBTS, Dr. Jeff Iorg. This was in response to a direct question from the floor of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) to the President of GGBTS from a Convention Messenger. This was during a time of question and answer during his official report to the SBC. If he is not official enough, no one or nothing ever will be.

Hence, the reason the questions have been raised since the Convention with Mr. White allowing Christianity Today to inaccurately state that he was currently teaching at GGBTS and to continue to post it on his website. Mr. White himself opened up the can of worms further by stating: "Now, I have written to my immediate superiors at GGBTS to ask about this, but since it is the weekend, I do not expect a response very soon."

If Mr. White had received a different response than what the President of GGBTS stated publicly to the Convention, he most certainly would have blogged about it and repeatedly touted such on his radio show. But we have heard nothing. Nary a peep. The only logical conclusion is that the Seminary President indeed meant what he said. The fact that others have also inquired of the Seminary and get the same response is noteworthy as well.

The reason this is a big deal to so many of us, is that we have someone with a questionable academic background that claims to teach at one of our seminaries. More importantly, he is at a minimum an extreme Calvinist, though I do believe he is a hyper Calvinist based on sound theological grounds (but that is another topic that has been covered ad nauseum). He is not Southern Baptist, we are. We help fund our Seminaries through the Cooperative Program - i.e. we pay the bills. So no one was out of line questioning whether Mr. White was indeed employed by GGBTS. And again, the response from Dr. Iorg, President of GGBTS, is that he is not.

How's that for credibility?

Blessings,

Ron P.

Scott Oakland

Dave, Why? Because there is no such person. And, if there was, you can be sure we'd know by this time. Nine months of work on this campaign, with all its smokle and mirrors, has netted a big goose-egg for Peter & Co. That's why my presence here troubles them so much. They cannot escape from the fact that, of the two principles here, Dr. James White and Golden Gate, they control neither. And, unless one of those two cough up some hard evidence, which is extremely unlikely, they will remain parked in neutral.

Scott Oakland

Hi Ron - Sorry to say, but the fact that Dr. White has failed to respond doesn't prove a thing. There are infinite possible reasons for that. The "if...then" scenario you attempt to paint doesn't hold any water at all. It is like saying "I accused person "X" of this and they haven't responded. Therefore, he must be guilty". Do you know how you are sounding here? He may have simply forgotten about all of you. Or, maybe he never got a response. Maybe GG forgot. After all, it is a yet unproven assertion. I think Dr. White AND GG (not to mention CES and the other seminaries he has attended or taught at) have bigger fish to fry than placate a group of bloggers with a grudge. And by the way, if you want to talk about credibility, why is it that CES and all the other seminaries that list Dr. White as currently teaching at GG, (which Peter L. presented in his "closing argument" post) if they're so concerned about all this, why haven't they changed their site to reflect this "truth" that you all are proposing? If you want to interpret silence as evidence, how will you explain that?

Scott Oakland

Hi Ron. Also, regarding this "smoking gun" video that everyone keeps insiting is rock-solid evidence of Dr. White's demise from GG, that was 9 mos. ago. That has no bearing at all on knowing what Dr. White's status is NOW, as we type this.

peter lumpkins

All,

I am afraid I owe Scott and James White an apology.  I was desperately attempting to find at least one piece of evidence questioning James White's "adjunct professor" status when I ran across this in The Phoenix Sun:

"Legendary Reformed Apologist, James White, President of the Alpha & Omega Ministries, has recently come under fire from critics who suggest he may not actually serve as Adjunct Professor at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary. The critics say White is not listed in the seminary's online listing, nor is James White presently teaching any class for the Southern Baptist seminary. Critics also point out the president of Golden Gate explicitly denied James White worked for the seminary but had had been "under contract" in the past. The president further noted that no plans existed to offer James White a contract to work in the future.

Nonetheless, James White's legal counsel, The Reverend Scott Oakland, suggested critics are committing a logical fallacy by attempting to prove a universal negative. "Everyone knows it's logically suspect to prove a universal negative which is what Peter Lumpkins & Co is trying to do. Hence, their argument that James White is not Adjunct Professor is completely bogus."  It does seem Scott's rhetorical point settles the issue. If it cannot be logically proven James White is not an adjunct professor at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, then it follows James White is, in fact, adjunct professor. The Sun attempted to contact Peter Lumpkins to clear his confused logic. However, he was hiding out in Tennessee and would not talk to The Sun" (//link)     


With that, I am…

Peter

peter lumpkins

Scott,

You should have taken the advice of the commenter above who gave you the benefit of doubt and acknowledged you gave it your best shot.  Now you’re stuck spinning every phrase of a comment to match your agenda.What a waste.

The fact is, no amount of sophistry will persuade people against easy-to-understand legitimate inferences from what we know, inferences which point to reasonably questioning whether James White is adjunct professor at GGBTS.

What is more, your continued attempt to frame this into demanding logical demonstration on the part of those raising the question is patently absurd. The truth is, I was responding to a claim made by you, Scott, you!  You are the one who positively claimed, Dr. James White teaches at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary. Indeed you didn’t even qualify his alleged “teaching” role. By that I mean both on your site and in the podcast, you give the reader/listener the impression that James White not only currently teaches various subjects at GG, but you did not qualify such with adjunct.  Thus another point in misleading the public (whether intentional or unintentional)—adjunct professors or “instructors” are a completely different category than Professor.

Even so, since you made the claim, Scott, the burden of proof lies upon you to demonstrate it. And this is especially so in light of evidence to the contrary which you say proves nothing.While what we’ve mentioned might not prove JW does not teach at Golden Gate, it certainly casts doubt about it, enough doubt, in fact, that were I actually employed somewhere and people were denying it, I’d plaster my evidence all over the internet.  Assuming, of course, I actually had any evidence I was employed where I said I was employed.  Now, we know the evidence against James White actually teaching presently at GG as adjunct faculty—he’s not listed on their adjunct professors listing, the president has negated plans to employ White, not to mention current affirmation gained from seminary officials White is *not* teaching and is *not* scheduled to teach.    

Here’s you a challenge, Scott: 

post a letter from the president that says James White is in good standing with Golden Gate and Golden Gate plans to use James White in the future as adjunct professor. If Doktor White is in good standing with the seminary, surely his superiors will want to put a stop to all the rumors out there that James White is no longer teaching for them.

If you and White cannot produce the letter or something like it, I think it is safe to assume there exists no working relationship between GGBTS and James White.

Unless you can demonstrate White is in fact teaching for Golden Gate other than taking both your and White’s word for it, I suggest you take your talking points elsewhere, Scott. I am uninterested in you hanging around here just to spin the comments of every commenter on the thread. Like I said, I don’t have time to babysit this blog.

I trust your day well.

With that, I am…

Peter   

peter lumpkins

All,

I'm on the move again presently traveling in Alabama. Know people are known to have been lost in these back country roads never to be found again. So, I will be out of the cyber-saddle yet again.

Even so, I don't think James White's legal counsel will hang around since he won't/can't offer evidence for his claim that James White teaches at GG ;^)

With that, I am...
Peter

R.L. Adler

SelahV,

chandler's interview is here:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2009/summer/thegoodfight.html

he's one of the few moderate reformed with a microphone. ive met the guy and I enjoy his teaching style. the sooner the YYR leaders like him begin to have a bigger voice in their camp the better.

R.L. Adler

Scott,

I'll be quite honest, your logic is rather thin. One could take all of your 'fallacies' and turn them on yourself very easily and effectively prove our point just as well.

the fact is there is more evidence to suggest white will never teach for ggbts again. how much more time needs to elapse before you are convinced?


if only he would change his bio to read "has served as adjunct... " this would all be over.

A.M. Mallett

I think it is wise to avoid White in his own professional domain. He earns a living through verbal shredding. I am certain he would tear my limbs off through various rhetorical devices and fallacies. However, on paper and in printed response, he isn't any different than any other neo-Reformed polemicist. The fallacies and devices are easily addressed and appropriately so. Your questions are reasonable and as you have noted are easily addressed without the shenanigans of White's media show. However, your reasonable approach will be misconstrued by various Whiteheads and you can expect the hyenas to circle looking for the non-existent meal of flesh.
Personally, I think you have done well enough exposing Mr. White's academic frauds even though it will fall on many blind eyes. The late Dr. Theodore Letis did the same thing with White a few years ago to no avail.

Blessings in Christ

Scott Oakland

Peter -

You're assumption that the burden is now on me, and that you were responding to a claim made by me, is just more spinning on your part. You're on the ropes, and I think you know it.

Keep in mind, I had Dr. White on the podcast a mere couple of weeks ago. I announced what I believed to be true of him - that he teaches at GG - as I do now. You and your Co. have been attempting to be judge, jury and executioner on THIS blog for many months regarding Dr. White's credentials....way before I ever had him on as a guest So for you to somehow make the claim that I started this whole controversy is laughable. And... for you to send me out to get some letter from GG isn't going to work either. Besides, that job belongs to Dave :)

Peter, face it. I have struck down all of your so-called evidences. Now you are enlisting me to help you prove your theory. A theory that if were true would already have resulted in Dr. White's name from being removed from CES, GG, A&O, and everywhere else it has appeared. And, we'd have PDFs of letters galore from all of those places, if the nefarious conclusions you have drawn were proven - the theory that he is misling everyone, and that it someone takes Peter Lumpkins and his Co. to get to the bottom of it. After 9 mos or more, it hasn't happened. Who knows, maybe you folks down there will succeed in getting him to never teach there again. But, that is yet future. Presently, we don't have a solid shred of evidence to support your theory - that he is "history" - that can't be explained away. Incidentally, none of the fine institutions that list Dr. White are worried about this one bit. Neither is Dr. White, I imagine. The only one worried is..... "Peter & Co."

Scott

Chris Gilliam

Scott it seems that your illustration is a poorer equivocation. I could....I won't. I have no desire to dialog with you, not because I can't, but because I won't, thus no need to respond to me, I have not the time or desire. Your gloating is sad for sure.

peter lumpkins

Scott,

Have it your way. I’ll sum up and close the exchange with you on this thread. Your words are embolden:

“You're assumption that the burden is now on me, and that you were responding to a claim made by me, is just more spinning on your part. You're on the ropes, and I think you know it.”------------------ Hardly. First, Scott, the burden of evidence for making questionable assertions has remained with you.  These are your words, Scott, so accept them:

“Dr. White…teaches Greek, Systematic Theology, and various topics in the field of apologetics at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary…” (//link).

This assertion is definitively false. James White does not teach any subject at GGBTS. He has in the past but no evidence exists he presently teaches or is being considered as adjunct instructor in the future. On the other hand, there are several bits of evidence which reasonably suggest not only is JW not presently adjunct professor at GGBTS, neither is he being considered as a future resource as adjunct professor at GGBTS. We have no mention of him on the GGBTS list of adjunct professors.  If James White was inadvertently omitted, a simple call to GGBTS could remedy the problem. However, a quick call bore for me information that JW is not on the list because James White is not an adjunct professor. Nor is he scheduled to be an adjunct professor. Indeed this information matches exactly what was told me May 2010 not to mention the seminary president’s own words in June 2010. 

Now, unless the president changed his mind (he hasn’t said so, hence we cannot presume so), the officials two days ago gave false info, and the official list of adjunct professors remains wrong after all, what is one supposed to think?  That James White nonetheless is still employed by GGBTS?  Against every indication we have to the contrary—indications, of course, except for your own public words and James White’s strange silence on the issue?

Unfortunately for you, Scott, if James White is not an adjunct professor presently nor is James White being considered as an adjunct professor in the future, how can your statement be true and not false that “Dr. White…teaches Greek, Systematic Theology, and various topics in the field of apologetics at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary…”? I think you need to go back and rewrite your statement. James White does not teach at GGBTS no matter how you cook the cake. But that’s just me. What do I know?

“Keep in mind, I had Dr. White on the podcast a mere couple of weeks ago. I announced what I believed to be true of him - that he teaches at GG - as I do now. You and your Co. have been attempting to be judge, jury and executioner on THIS blog for many months regarding Dr. White's credentials....way before I ever had him on as a guest So for you to somehow make the claim that I started this whole controversy is laughable. And... for you to send me out to get some letter from GG isn't going to work either.” -------------------- First, Scott, I’m unsure when you actually interviewed White. What I do know is, your timestamp says you posted the interview and words I quoted above Mar 21, 2011.  Recall I put up the first mention of your false assertion that James White teaches at Golden Gate two days afterward on Mar 23, 2011. And, so far as discussing White’s “credentials” please keep the two issues separate. While some overlap is there, the fact remains James White’s credentials have jack squat to do with whether he teaches adjunctly at GGBTS. Hence, your clever attempt to make this an issue we’ve been discussing for “many months” is pure nonsense. 

So far as I know nothing has been said on this site about James White’s questionable employment relationship with GGBTS since June 2010. I could be mistaken. However, what I know is, it's hardly accurate to interpret this blog making an issue of White not being adjunct professor “for many months” as you attempt to do.  Hence, what I wrote was both fair and accurate, Scott: “The truth is, I was responding to a claim made by you, Scott, you! You are the one who positively claimed, Dr. James White teaches at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary.”

With the questionable assertion as a backdrop, I responded two days after you claimed James White teaches at GGBTS. Were I you, Scott, I’d stop laughing now. You are the one who got James White all this negative publicity.  And, if I may be so bold, your continued rationalization to make it appear what you claimed about James White remains acceptable is desperate nonsense.  Better to just give it up.

“Peter, face it. I have struck down all of your so-called evidences.”----------------------- Well, I unfortunately think you are living way to close to OZ, Scott. Fumes are making you a bit spacey ;^)  But I’m perfectly willing to allow the readers to judge between the evidences I presented and your denials of them.

Now you are enlisting me to help you prove your theory…A theory that if were true would already have resulted in Dr. White's name from being removed from CES, GG, A&O…” ------------------------------ Hardly, Scott. Recall you are the one making the claim that James White teaches at GGBTS.  Much to the contrary negates this claim,  and thus far, only one source of info is defending your claim--you!. The sad thing is, not even James White is defending it!  You’ve stuck you wee little neck out, vigorously insisting James White teaches at GGBTS—he is an adjunct professor. Where is James White?  Has he put up a post proclaiming something similar to the following:

“Scott Oakland is correct. I’ve personally communicated with my superiors at GGBTS and I am still considered adjunct professor. The reason I haven’t taught is not because there were issues between GGBTS and me. Instead, we just couldn’t work out a schedule for me to teach. But they have assured me when my schedule fits, they are ready to offer me a contract.”

I can answer that in a two-letter word—no. Instead he’s been grandstanding along with you attempting to get me into a position where he can “cross-examine” me.  What about?  Not whether he teaches at GGBTS. We all know the answer to that question—he does not. If he did teach there, he would already squashed me like a grungy little roach. Instead he wants to talk to me about Textual Criticism.  Yep. Textual Criticism. What a double-Georgia hoot!

The simple point I’m making Scott is this: when the final truck comes rolling into the dock, and all finally know James White does not work for GGBTS, the only ones with egg on their faces are the ones like you.  White is clean. He’s not saying anything.  It’s you who’s making the defense not him. Now that doesn’t relieve him of not fixing those places where he is still listed as “Adjunct Professor” (Bethany House, CES, etc.). But he’s not making the case, Scott, you are buddy.  White doesn’t even presently have ‘adjunct professor’ at GGBTS on his blog.  Is it not strange if GGBTS and White are still in working relationship, it’s not listed there somewhere? (I know why it’s not there & he knows why it’s not there; ask him; if he’s straight-forward about it, you’ll get a knot in your stomach because every defense you have made disappears into cyber oblivion, Scott. Sorry to break the news to you like this).  

“Presently, we don't have a solid shred of evidence to support your theory - that he is "history" - that can't be explained away.”------------------------------------I think you are correct on this, Scott.  From your perspective, nothing I have presented exists which can't be explained away. I couldn’t agree more. To those thoroughly initiated into White’s circle, nothing counts against the cause. All can be explained away.  Bravo!

Hence, there is nothing else left to say on this—at least from me to you, Scott. You just said it: everything can be explained away. I would only be wasting my time to offer more exchange. And, since I’ve already informed you that you must produce something with some teeth in it to prove your assertion James White teaches Greek, Systematic Theology, and various topics in apologetics at GGBTS, you needn’t come back with yet more verbiage.  Bring us some evidence, and we’ll consider it again. Otherwise, the exchange is over.

With that, I am…

Peter

peter lumpkins

Sorry, Scott. You've had plenty of space to make your case. No positive evidence to demonstrate your assertion that James White presently teaches as adjunct professor at GGBTS, no comment.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

"Dave"

Not interested in messing around with anonymous commenters. Your questions are irrelevant.

Scott,

Stop logging comments. I am not posting anymore unless you have something positive to demonstrate your suspect assertion that JW teaches at GGBTS. Hence, without some positive evidence JW is adjunct professor at GGBTS, I'm not interested. How much clearer do I need to be?

With that, I am...
Peter

peter lumpkins

All,

I just listened to the first few minutes of James White’s latest Dividing Line.  Lots of rambling about me personally but nothing noteworthy about this issue. White did say he heard from GG last fall but didn’t elaborate. The truth is, if all is well between GGBTS and himself, all he’d have to do to squelch any denial of him teaching at GGBTS is to get his superiors to validate it. Unfortunately, those who are talking at the seminary deny White is teaching there or that there are any plans for him to do so. 

In addition, Rich Peirce suggested the Christianity Today article I linked had been changed (why these guys say “I don’t count” but continue to read my stuff and follow my links is anyone’s guess). I assume he means the article was changed to better reflect more accurately what was the case with James White and Golden Gate in June of 2010.  He said “follow the links” and one won’t find what I say is there.

Well, here is the link I gave in the OP and the quote upon which I drew my inference:

“"The president of a large theological seminary has created a myth concerning his background that is incredibly self-contradictory," said White, who teaches on Islam at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary” (//link)

Why Peirce would say the CT article is changed makes no sense. As one can see, according to the article, White is perceived and quoted as presently [i.e. June 2010] teaching Islam at GGBTS, the very assertion I made in the original post in June 2010 as well as here.

Why James White thinks I will not “face him” because my arguments are so “vacuous” and “empty” seems too incredible for words. I’m having way too much fun pointing out their simple, basic mis-readings.

With that, I am…

Peter

peter lumpkins

Scott,

Look. How many ways do I have to say it? I am uninterested in any continued exchange apart from your actually bringing evidence for your assertion "James White teaches at GGBTS." You obviously have none and apparently either haven't a clue how to get evidence or you have no desire to get it. Fine by me. But do not expect your blathering on about logical fallacies or complaining that you are not being heard or I'm censoring you or I'm not making sense or whatever runs through your mind to get posted. Good grief man, you've logged a ton of comments not to mention you have your own podcast to get your word out.

With that said, please don't log any more comments about this. If necessary, I'll flag your IP which dumps all future comments you log directly into the spam bucket. I won't even see it. But at least I don't have it staring at me everytime I open my dashboard. I don't want to do that. But I will.

Have a good day in the Lord.
With that, I am...
Peter

R.L. Adler

"Why Peirce would say the CT article is changed makes no sense"

it makes it sound like pierce had given an inch to straighten the record out. but it's just more wool over the eyes of white's followers. you know the listeners will just take his word for it rather than do some fact checking.

peter lumpkins

Scott,

Good grief, guy. Do you not have anything better to do? Now I gave you fair warning: do not show back up without evidence to demonstrate your questionable assertion--"James White teaches at GGBTS." What do you do? Show back up with yet more verbiage that I somehow "lost" the argument.

Well, so long, Scott. Your comments are now spam bucket bound. I have no time to spend wiping tears and powdering the bottoms of James White supporters who cannot seem to get it through their thick skulls they don't own the internet.

With that, I am...
Peter

P.S. I think you should do a podcast telling the listening world how I "lost" the exchange. Go for it!

Dave Armstrong

Grate Scott?

Bill Trip

Dear Peter, you seem to be a very sad human being. On one hand you want to white wash the lies of Ergun Caner and on the other hand slander one, James White, who engages in real debates with those who oppose the Christian worldview. I don't understand you.

peter lumpkins

Dear Bill,

A) Yes, I am a sad human being. Agreed. Only by God's wonderful grace am I able to get myself going everyday; B) I white-washed no one. Rather I pointed out EC was not the moral thug White's posse made him out to be (now, don't come back here again making this about EC); C) pointing out a person *is not* teaching at an institution but he nonetheless publicly states he is and allows others to do so does not constitute slander. If you think it does, I suggest you put your argument in written form. I'm quite sure many people would be interested in reading it; D) what I've stated on this blog has jack squat to do with whether White debates people. No one to my knowledge raises this question; E) my wife doesn't understand me either, so don't feel so bad ;^)

Good day.
With that, I am...
Peter

Chris Gilliam

Why one would hold on to PRESENT tense, when depending on PAST tense, and hoping for FUTURE tense defies elementary rules of linguistics. Oh the linguistic gymnastics that fry the brain and in many words sin is not lacking....

Remi

Bill,

How is that Kool-aide? Is everyone who disagrees with James White a sad human being who opposes the Christian worldview? Is it possible to disagree with him or what he does, how he acts, etc, and not be a horrible, god-hating human being?

Paul Owen

Peter,

I'm sure you noticed that the groundwork has already been laid for an explanation. If James White never teaches at GGBTS again, it will be because you and your followers raised a stink and managed to keep him from being given another teaching contract. It is also your fault Peter, that White's name is not on the list of adjunct faculty associated with the seminary on their website. And it is also your fault that the President of the seminary said last summer, when asked about White's association with GGBTS, that though White has taught in the "past" for the seminary, he does not currently have a teaching contract, and that there are no plans for him to be given a teaching contract in the future. All of this is down to you, Peter.

While we are at it, it is your fault Peter, that White calls you "Lumpy" whenever he makes reference to you. It is also your fault that White's theological "doctorate" comes from an unaccredited seminary with no campus (other than a rented office in a rundown building). It is also your fault that Bart Erhman did not take White seriously as a scholar when they debated, and failed to acknowledge to the audience that The King James Only Contoversy was actually the first book to explain textual criticism to the masses (still a sore spot). And it is your fault that, after doing everything he could to get Ergun Caner fired, White has chosen to inflate his own credentials by using the title "Dr." and by continuing to list himself as teaching at an accredited Baptist seminary where he no longer teaches. It is also your fault that White keeps telling the public how many miles he has logged riding his bike, how much of a resemblence he bears to Lance Armstrong, how many hours he spends learning Arabic from his Arabic tutor who is teaching him Arabic (did I mention that?), and how everyone who is not a Reformed Baptist is so frightened by him that that refuse to "face" him, because they know if they stood before him in cross-examination, they would be crushed and wither like the flowers of the field before the blazing sun. Thanks Lumpy, thanks a lot.

R.L. Adler

"because they know if they stood before him in cross-examination, they would be crushed and wither like the flowers of the field before the blazing sun."


hahaha I think this is my favorite part of white's threats to anyone who disagrees with him.

debates don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things, especially anything resembling truth. in debate 101 you learn how to debate both sides of the story (truth is not the objective). this is why they hardly bend anyones opinion. they are effective mainly in sharpening where someone is already leaning.

its like the outcome of two fighters doesn't prove a point beyond the skill of the better fighter. but it's still fun to watch.

as white is a professional debater theres no question he would be effective in an argument. though I hoped he would have come against someone who can actually debate, like Hitchens, to humble him since most of the people White has debated are 'stepping stone' debaters. or they're real scholars like Ehrman who have no desire to debate but would rather give a lecture (reading the ehrman-white debate I felt like I was auditing ehrmans class).

peter lumpkins

All,

I was checking for something else and decided to look at the spam bucket. Our good friend Scott Oakland had logged yet another comment. And, it's just too good to not post. Here she is:

Scott Oakland said:

Peter, I think you'd be interested to know that SOMEONE out there is questioning your degrees. I found this on the web: “Peter Lumpkins has failed to list the institutions where he has received his degrees. There’s nothing from the institutions that state publicly that he received them. Therefore, absent him providing the hard evidence (photocopies of the degrees themselves, or a letter confirming same), we have to assume that he did not receive those degrees at all, and is simply engaged in puffing up his resume on his blog to make people think he is a big shot. Since we have had such bad experience with him in the past, we must be right, and until he responds to our request, we will create an entire website mocking him and his credentials. We won’t respond to his invitations to come on his blog and engage him, though – we just want the evidence. And logical arguments are meaningless to us. Just cough up the goods, already!”

Whew! I have to tell you, I am scared to death. Please, Scott, please don't let them do this! I promise I'll not post on JW anymore. And, I will try to behave myself if you'll not expose me like that. Oh, the pain of it all. Why me, Lord? Why me? I am ruined, I tell you. Ruined!!!!!

What a triple-Georgia Hoot! Go for it, Scott! Go for it!

With that, I am...
Peter

Mark Applegate

But if he wasn't a Calvinist......

Remi

The 11th commandment: Thou shalt not question or criticize James White, or thou shalt be considered a god-hater and a liar.

The comments to this entry are closed.