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Feb 17, 2011

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Mary

Mark Driscoll arrogant prideful mysoginist jerk.

James White arrongant prideful mysoginist jerk.


Hmmm there's something else these two have in common? It'll come to me I'm sure.

Roy

Peter,

Thank you for continuing to stand up against Mr. White's bullying. You have to understand the mindset of people like he and Rich. They see Mormons, Catholics, Muslims, etc, as curiosities and barbarians, not as real people that God loves. They depersonalize them like they do their critics, which helps them justify the rabid attacks and ridicule.

It all comes back to two things. Pride and lack of love. Those two things are antithetical to everything that it means to be a Christian. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like they are changing this anytime soon, and it doesn't look like their cult will hold them accountable. We can only pray that they repent, as it seems any requests that they do falls on deaf ears.

Drpenn

Does anyone still really consider James White a "southern baptist"? Frankly, I'm surprised anyone reads or listens to him at all anymore. He's as interesting and tasteless as over-cooked shrimp. No thanks. The man is a moron.

Didn't we KNOW already that his arguments are much more emotional than logical? The entire Dr. Caner spat proved that much.

craig Daliessio

And this same James White attacked Ergun Caner for making what was CLEARLY a joke about women vacuuming around the pulpit. Once again, Doktor White makes his own tape measure and declares himself ten feet tall. The world is over him...and he knows it.

jaiotu

A moment to pause and think.

Peter, I disagree with much of your theology, and your assessment of James White as a "hyper-Calvinist."

But... If I told the joke that Pierce and White told on the dividing line about Mormon women and Russian women at work, and the wrong people heard it, I could be fired.

Certainly something to think about.

Eric Opsahl

Respectfully,
You wrote "James White and his trusty sidekick, Rich Pierce, need to publicly apologize for these"

Peter, you are absolutely wrong, Elder White does not need to apologize. An apology comes after you bump in to someone. He absolutely needs to repent of his sin.

So I suppose he would tell me to my face that he doesn't know how I've kept from being in a cult because my wife may not be a beauty queen. Did you catch him saying that about Mr. Young.

Does he not understand (especially seeing God as sovereign) that those women and all the women today are created by God and have absolutely no say in how they are created. I'm no model myself. Am I to be ridiculed because I didn't get created with good looks.

It is patently absurd that a Pastor can 1. make this comment. 2. after making the comment, not see the sin involved, especially when he has been told as much. 3. not simply come out and repent.

And I'm one that would backup Elder White.


Mary

Peter, what's disturbing to me about this situation is the Whiteheads coming out and finally admitting that White has crossed a line here. The way he talks about women is the way he treats anybody who doesn't bow down and worship at his feet. HE IS NOT NOW NOR HAS HE EVER BEEN anything remotely related to Christlike in his behavior toward those who disagree with him. This is not NEW behavior nor is it an ABERRATION. THIS IS THE REAL JAMES WHITE. He's a jerk to put it mildly. His misogyny is very real here and where there's misogyny there are more deep seated hatreds and pathologies. Men don't just show such comtempt and disrespect toward women but Hey in other areas of their life they're just the greatest thing since sliced bread. For some reason the White Cultist were aok when White is insulting nonCalvinist like Peter cuz hey they're just stupid nonCalvinist and they don't really matter, but NOW that he's insulting women they're all offended? Sorry, just not buying it and maybe those who are "seeing the light" in regards to White's misogyny need to look to their own behavior where they have propped up this hateful vile man.

peter lumpkins

All,

Be away for most of the day. Play nice.

With that, I am...
Peter

sent via droid

Roy

@Mary and DrPenn,

I am very sorry that Mr. White and Mr. Pierce said such hurtful and sexist things. But I do think, as many of us are publicly calling Mr. White, and apparently it is now necessary to call Mr. Pierce, to public repentance for their repeated attacks and hatred and unchristlike behavior, that we should not become like they and their followers.

White, Pierce, and their followers somehow think they are exempt from any of the rules or requirements in the bible because of some reason... possibly they are the only ones with the right theology, or something, I don't know. As I said, it is much like Catholics that I have dealt with. I have little doubt, unfortunately, that they will continue to act the way they are acting, calling people names, misleading people, and attacking anyone who disagrees with them.

Let's avoid calling them names and thereby sinking to their level, even if what they do is hurtful, and deal with the substance of what they say and do. I believe that's the best way to go as Christians. God still loves them, despite their godless behavior.

Johnnie

There is a very simple solution for all of you who dislike James White. Call the dividing line on either Tuesday or Thursday during his show and confront him with your issues. It is very easy to sit behind a computer and critique him. If you really believe he is in error then let him know. Below is info taken from his website.

Listen to "The Dividing Line" Featuring Dr. James White. Most Tuesday Mornings at 11:00am MST and Most Thursday Afternoons at 4:00 MST. 1-877-753-3341 (Toll Free).

Roy

@Jonnie,

Thank you for showing yourself to be an unquestionably loyal james white supporter. To compartmentalize anyone who points out the unchristlike behavior as white as simply "disliking" him shows that you have, indeed, completely given up any type of objective look at Mr. White.

I wouldn't call Ed Schultz's show and confront him about his actions, because HE controls the medium, can hit the mute button, and can hang up on you. Mr. White reminds me a lot of Ed Schultz in how he treats people, and calling in to his show where he controls the conversation, can hang up, can mute, would not be productive other than making people think more people listen to his radio show than do.

It's better to deal with him on a separate medium that he does not have control over. We can see that from his debate with Ehrman. When he can't control the medium, when he can't throw loaded questions and demand yes/no answers when you can't say yes or no without an explanation.... we see that he can't really figure out what to do.

Not to mention, we've seen the way he treats callers that disagree with him. Maybe you should encourage him to deal with those calling him to repentance on a neutral medium and stop attacking Peter on his show and twitter?

"If he dislikes Peter, let him post on Peter's blog." See how your logic works? Good for the goose, not for the gander?

Roy

@Johnnie,

Oh, and, I did notice you referred to him as "Dr. White" He's not a doctor, no matter how much you want to believe that he is. This isn't the "little engine that could" in that the more you say he's a doctor, he becomes one.

Roy

@Johnnie, "you know you're a whitehead if"

"It is very easy to sit behind a computer and critique him. If you really believe he is in error then let him know."

For you to make such a statement shows you have lost all objectively and reason regarding Mr. White. This is all he DOES is sit behind a computer and criticize others. In addition, he spent 11 minutes the other day sitting behind a microphone, uninterrupted, attacking Mr. Lumpkins. Surely you see the hypocrisy of what you are saying.

You also surely know he reads this website, and is fully aware of what we are saying, so we have no need to argue with him on his radio show. Mr. White repeatedly takes his issues with people publicly, instead of talking to them about it as you are requiring that we do. Seriously, in the future, can you be less hypocritical? It's hard to take you seriously. The only thing that us calling his radio show would achieve is for him to mute or hang up on us and try to grandstand. But, I'm sure that's exactly what you want, since you find no fault in whatever your dear leader does.

Geoff

Mr. Johnnie,

I don't know if you are one of the regulars who frequents the IRC channels that Mr. White runs, but I personally have seen them ban from both the channels and the complete server anyone who disagrees with them or Mr. White. Expecting different behavior from his radio show may be a stretch.

Ray

Johnnie,

From what I can tell, nobody cares about (or listens to) "the dividing line" except white's hyper-calvinist buddies.

besides, who has time the to call in to every "basement theologian" homejob webcast and confront them on their issues?


There are plenty of people from all across the christan spectrum who have called out white on various issues (and this one in particular) and to not see a SINGLE apology or statement of repentance from him is very telling.

Roy

@Ray,

Unfortunately, I do not think he will apologize. I think this is what will ultimately be his undoing, in that his pride truly is as bad, if not worse, than we fear, such as to keep him every admitting he's wrong.

We saw this with his "doctorate," and we continue to see it.

We saw this when he misquoted a part of the Koran in order to make a point, leaving out a section, and still keeps the video up of this despite being told by muslims and former muslims(now christians) that it is not correct. Can you imagine if someone had done that to us regarding the bible?(left out verse 14 from a reading of verses 13-15)? We would be up in arms.

We now see it with his misogynistic comments. The unfortunate thing is, you have a personality that cannot admit he is wrong, and he is surrounded by people such as Rich Pierce and Lane Chaplin that egg him on and refuse to ever say to him, "you know, you shouldn't have done that" or "you know, you were wrong about that." A true friend is one who tells you when you are doing wrong. Let's not forget, rebuke a wise man and he will love you. Rebuke a scoffer and he will hate you(Proverbs 9:8). Rich, Lane, and the other whiteheads are failing him as friends, and as people who claim to be believers.

Roy

Why it does appear that both Mr. White and Mr. Pierce are following what goes on here.

Before I address that, though, just some information regarding Mr. White's continuing dishonesty regarding his education. He has on his facebook page that he knows the following languages:

"Knows German, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Arabic"

This reminds me of Obama's pastor, who claimed to know 5 languages. Mr. White does NOT know these languages. At best, he may be familiar with them in a cursory sense(maybe he can say hello and goodbye in them). The the idea that he is fluent in them just further shows his dishonesty.

But back to what I originally said, Mr. Pierce posted this on their Facebook group for AOmin.

“Every now and then I like to remind our critics of how the doctorate issue began. The first post in this series was by Dr. White who was the first to raise the issue, (late 1997). We have never hidden this from anyone but have yet to have a single critic actually interact with Dr. White's reasoning for following the path that he did.
Alpha and Omega Ministries, The Christian Apologetics Ministry of James R. White
vintage.aomin.org
Of Doctorates and Eternity

This is obviously misleading. Even if Mr. White was the first to raise the issue, that doesn't give him any more credibility than a “doctor” who is forward about his going to a medical school in Jamaica or in the Amazon, then coming back to the U.S. and claiming he's a doctor. If anything, it shows that Mr. White knew it was going to be an issue, yet decided to do it anyway.

It continues to be fodder among any objective person regarding Mr. White, yet he still insists, and Mr. Pierce does as well, on trying to convince everyone that your eyes are lying to you... that, in fact, a doctorate can be made up out of thin air and it's just as good as one from say, Harvard.

Mr. Pierce, stop enabling your friend. He obviously has some problems, why not help him?

Mary

""We have never hidden this from anyone but have yet to have a single critic actually interact with Dr. White's reasoning for following the path that he did...""


Interpreted: The Great White has spoken and he has explained to all you fools that he made a superior choice in his education. The Great White declares that his Doctorate is better than anyone who thinks standards mean anything. Whatever the Great White declares is the Standard. You silly little fools with your accreditation and standards. The Great White does not follow the path of you simpletons. HE himself the Great White sets the Standards.

It's scary how these people worship this man. Truly cultic. And you get from this why the rules that everyone else follows simply don't apply to him. He the Great White delcares what is so and not so.

David B. Hewitt

Wow.

Ladies and gentlemen, I debated whether I should even comment in this thread, seeing that it is well known that I consider myself a friend of Dr. White, that I support A&O ministries, and have defended Dr. White here in these threads before. I suspect that people will, upon seeing my name here again, will do little more than continue with the theme of White's doctorates, or any number of other things and not address what I'll say, but in spite of that possibility, I continue.

I first wish to state that I am much more interested in holiness than I am in winning an argument. I wish to see Christ manifest in His church, local and universal, and His glory is seen much more clearly when His people conduct themselves in righteousness.

Let's say for a moment that I were to grant that Dr. White's comments on the DL regarding Brigham Young's wives were not appropriate, just for the sake of argument. What ought my response to such statements be, especially if I believed him to be sinning with his words?

My first thought would be to pray for him, ask that God grant him repentance, and ask others to pray for him. Given that God has used him in the past (especially with regard to defending and proclaiming core Christian doctrines such as Justification and the Trinity), I would trust that God would turn him around and keep His Name from being slandered.

When I read through this thread, I must admit, I saw very little mentioning prayer for him, when one would think it would have been much more prominent. Rather, I saw things such as these:

1. Dr. White's ministry (which is an international apologetics ministry), was insulted, saying Dr. White was a "basement theologian."

2. Those who follow his ministry are called "whiteheads" which is certainly not a compliment, especially since a real whitehead is, in my opinion, more than a little gross.

3. People suggest that Dr. White is a hateful and "vile man" who have never met him, never observed his life, never been to his church.

4. Someone flatly said, "The man is a moron."

5. He, a man who is an elder and thus pastor of a Reformed Baptist church in Phoenix, is said to be a cult leader.

6. The author of the post again refers to Dr. White as a hyper-Calvinist, though he seems to be unwilling to say that David Engelsma is one. David Engelsma denies common grace, which James White affirms.

I am persuaded that Proverbs 18:13 is a verse that is realized quite frequently in the blogosphere. I keep is on the wall over my monitor:

"If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame." (ESV)

Making the kind of claims people do without having gathered all the appropriate information brings one under the condemnation of this verse.

One might also ask if the term "Whiteheads" is beneficial or good:

Ephesians 4:29 HCSB No rotten talk should come from your mouth, but only what is good for the building up of someone in need, in order to give grace to those who hear.

One must also question the rightness of calling anyone a moron:

Matthew 5:22 HCSB But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Fool!' will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, 'You moron!' will be subject to hellfire.

Further, all of us should examine ourselves in the light of the following before we say anything:

Matthew 7:3-5 HCSB Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye but don't notice the log in your own eye? (4) Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and look, there's a log in your eye? (5) Hypocrite! First take the log out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Typing on the internet in a blog or a comments box is a modern version of using our tongues, you might say (see James 3). The fingers can indeed do a lot of damage, and we would be wise to cry out to God for His grace and mercy and guidance ourselves before putting fingers to keyboard. Such is surely good and God-honoring practice.

May God guide His Church into righteousness.

sdg,
dbh

Mary

My husband (who has a real doctorate and never demands anyone call him Dr) just read this and said; "The problem with Jimmy's "path" is it led to a fake doctorate."

He still cracks me up! The hubby and JW.

jaiotu

I've made no bones about it... I have found, and still find, James White's ministry to be extremely helpful. Yet I do think an apology for these particular comments is in order.

However... telling a horribly distasteful joke does not equal a hatred of women. You have to make a dozen assumptions to go from the one to the other.

And it's the Bible that defines what sin is. Not our culture. At most, a case could be made that White and Pierce's comments violated the command to "love your neighbor as yourself," but that can be a pretty open criteria for some people. It's God's law that tells us what it means to "love your neighbor," not our personal feelings.

The opening introduction to White's "Dividing Line" program contains these words: "the Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence."

This is definitely an example of where the program missed that mark. It does not, however, disqualify White from being capable of performing public ministry.

Yes, we live in a culture where many, if not most, employers have policies where such comments in the workplace would be worthy of termination. This is due to our changing cultural values, not a reflection Biblical mandates.

Some of White's most loyal supporters will stop at nothing to defend him and his comments and many of White's most vocal critics will stop at nothing to paint White in the worst possible light. The reality is that James White is neither an angel or a devil. He's a man perfectly capable of stumbling like any other.

I would love to hear James White and Rich Pierce issue an apology for the comments they made that were in poor taste. But to define those comments as "sinful" goes beyond the Biblical definition of sin. What he did was to "sin" against the culture and he showed poor judgement in doing so.

craig Daliessio

Jonnie...I'd rather play him one on one in a nice game of hockey. Or MMA. James White embodies true cult behavior. How is that Kool-aid, by the way?

Johnnie

Actually, Roy, he is a Doctor. I am sure you would have refered to the late Dr. Jerry Falwell, and Dr. Ken Hamm(answersingenesis.com) as such. Though, neither of them did or have earned their doctorates. James White has earned his doctorate in a school that, though not accredited, has a strong track record and several people who would testify to its worthiness. Not only has he earned his doctorate, he has also proven it. I am sure you know he has written several books and has debated some of the top names in the apologetic world. Jerry Falwell may have proven to be a Dr. but he didn't earn it. The same is true with Ken Hamm. You use almost the same argumentation against James White as learned atheists do against Ken Hamm. Most of them refuse to debate him because he doesn't have a real doctorate. He does have an extensive background in science and apologetics but that doesn't make him good enough for these studied atheists(in their minds). You are applying the same irrational argumentation against a man who has both earned and proven his doctorate. You may not like Dr. White and that is fine, but no matter what you say he has earned and proven his title.

Geoff

I don't think anyone would fault Mr. White for electing to not get a real doctorate so that he can spend more time with his family, parents, and such things. The problem is, if that's the choice he made, he should not be claiming to have attained a doctorate.
If a woman can't go to nursing school because she doesn't have the money or no one will watch the kids, we understand that. But that doesn't mean she can then claim to have done so and everyone should accept this out of pity and compassion.

peter

David,

You write, "Let's say for a moment that I were to grant that Dr. White's comments on the DL regarding Brigham Young's wives were not appropriate, just for the sake of argument." A few things, David.

First,forget "for argument's sake." Were White & Pierce's words concerning women appropriate or inappropriate? Which David? Which? You "debated" whether or not to log on. Well, you logged on. Now tell us plainly. For until you're ready to make a judgment call about White & Pierce's words, you have no business coming here and making judgments about any words on this thread.

Second, your entry into this thread reflects perfectly the reason why so many dub guys like you "Whiteheads.' No matter the position James White embraces or the behavior he pursues, he is defended. His views are never questioned and his behavior is hardly questioned. Now all JW supporters do not fit that mold. Eric doesn't. Nor does the lady whom I quoted in the OP. But you, David, do.

Third, to log on here and attempt to make the concern I've raised into an absence of holiness on my (our) part rather than a problem JW possesses remains classic JW defense--raise a diversionary stink about us and take the spotlight off JW. The real problem, according to you is, we didn't pray.

Sorry. It's not going to work. Either make a judgment about White & Pierce's words or expect to be ignored on this thread.

Finally, unless you've got a direct question on the content of this post, please refrain from leaving cryptic remarks about the "author" of this post. Nor will I go over with you yet again the details why I identify the theology of JW as Hyper-Calvinistic, David. Nothing will be accomplished. So please drop it.

With that, I am...
Peter

Roy

@DBH,

I could respond to what you wrote there point by point, particularly mentioning that just the other day, I referred to an associate of Mr. White who called someone here a "moron." Of course, this seemed to escape your criticism.

But we can nutshell DBH's response. Mr. White shall not be criticized, and anyone who does, is being unchristlike. Now, DBH took a lot of words to say that, and the objective observer would wonder why a majority of that was not in fact directed at his friend Mr. White, but that is simply not to be. DBH would rather say in hundreds of words what could be said in a few... "all criticism of Mr. White is invalid, and those who do are being unchristlike, and according to other White followers, probably unregenerate as well."

Sorry DBH, that pig don't fly. But, as you do claim to be his friend, it may be time for you to take him to task for making a fool of himself and acting vicious and hateful to anyone who disagrees with him. Of course, that would involve you actually admitting he has flaws, which could very well get you excommunicated. We see that he spent 11 minutes on his radio program, that you likely contribute to, attacking Mr. Lumpkins. Quite a ministry he has there. Of course, he may do that to you if you ever dare to cross him, so I can sympathize with your fear.

And just so you know, I have prayed, and do pray, for him. I will continue to do so. To argue that all criticism and responses of him are invalid unless we do it secretly through prayer is ridiculously hypocritical considering he makes public every grievance he has with anyone.

@johnnie,
I see you are content with dishonesty. The reasons Mr. White has not earned or proven his title have been brought up repeatedly by those who have REAL doctorates, and those in other communities who see this as a reason to think he has no credibility. He is MISLEADING people when he says he has a doctorate. Even if Mr. Fallwell or Mr. Hamm did it, that would not justify Mr. White doing it. I don't know what is with you guys and bringing up unverifiable hypotheticals to prove your point.

This issue is NOT going away. It will continue to be an asterisk next to his name(probably right near the letters "Dr.") as long as he continues to play this silly game. Mr. White may be considered godlike(or perhaps God, it seems, as anyone who disagrees with him is apparently going against God and a God-hater) to his followers, but his inability to see this as other people see it is going to continue cause people not to respect him. You claim to be his friend, but you are no different than the townspeople in "the Emporer has no Clothes." At some point, it takes someone who's willing to be honest and obvious to say, "hey, this guy really is not a Doctor." Of course, if it's anyone close to him, they'd probably be burned like Servatus by his followers, particularly Mr. Turretin "Repent!" Fan.

To claim that holding standards that nearly every university on the planet seems to hold is "irrational" just shows your cultlike dedication to this guy. It's really quite sad.

peter

Roy,

Interestingly, you brought up "God-hater." Last year, one of James White's right-hand men, Micah Burke, put up a blog post entitled: "Peter Lumpkins: Liar, Lawbreaker, and God-hater." Pretty cool, ah?

With that, I am...
Peter

peter

David,

BTW, what was said about "Lumpy" in chat channel today? Does he need a heads-up on anything?

With that, I am...
Peter

Roy

Peter,

I had read that, which is why I brought up the term. I'm sorry they said that to you.

You know, I'm reminded of a current political reality that has a parallel to all of this. Much has been made of anyone who criticizes Obama as having a personal problem, such as they are a racist, hate-monger, bigot, etc. In other words, there is no good reason to criticize, so any criticism must be based on bad ones.

A guy on TV a year or so ago mentioned this and said something to the effect of, "you have to understand that many of his supporters consider their position and behavior the only moral and right one, so if you disagree with them, it can be for NO good reason. It must be for a bad one. They cannot intellectually allow themselves to dignify the possibility that you say and believe what you do in good faith.”

I think this is what we find ourselves in regarding James White and his cult of followers. As they are the only ones with the right theology and the right type of ministry, they are justified in ignoring the parts of the Bible that they deem “inconvenient” to how they want to act(which is ironic, as Mr. White has, on AOmin's site that “The Gospel is Ours to Proclaim, Not to Edit”). If you mention anything they do or say that seems to be inconsistent with the Bible or Christianity, you are obviously jealous, a liar, or in league with the devil. You MUST have an ulterior motive. Because, of course, the only moral and right position is to support them.

I mean, you even have jaiotu here trying to argue, “well, it was wrong, but not a sin.” I'm not sure they can even see this guy as capable of committing sin. It truly is bizarre.

I must stress again that I do not believe all Calvinists are like this. However, the hyper-calvinists that James White and his followers consist of tend to be this way.

Ray

David B. Hewitt,

I work in media. I've traveled the world. I hardly call myself an "international" media producer. anyone who uses "international" anymore is pretentious. the world wide web has changed everything. everyone is "international" or "global". "the dividing line" needs to get over itself.


while the rest of your list of grievances is rather weak too (except about the "moron" comment), the latter half of your post is very eloquent and convicting (the parts with scripture).

Now I would like you to please copy and paste that into an email and send it directly to your friend Doktor White. Maybe he will listen to you.

Johnnie

The only thing that I have learned from this blog is that if you can't refute a persons biblical arguments, you must engage in straw man and ad hominem attacks against them and their position.

Mary

Peter and Roy, thank you for your responses to DBH.

As a woman living in this world, as a mother raising a daughter living in this world I just cannot believe anybody who claims the name of Christ could think that in a world where women are bombarded daily, hourly, with messages that the only thing that matters is how a woman looks. Measure up to some Hollywood standard or have plastic surgery. For anyone to just think it is possible to gloss over someone who claims to be an "Elder" a "Christian Apologist" oh he's a "Doctor" (not by all acceptable standards but some new-fangled White idea that HE get's to set standards everyone else should follow) for anyone to think that objectifying and belittling women based on their looks is just beyond the pale. Words escape as to what levels some are willing to stoop to defend the cult. And it is a cult that would defend at any cost something as utterly undefensible as the misogyny against women. And for anyone who doesn't believe this rises to the level of misogyny all you have to do is a little internet research to see how White publicaly treated his own sister when she dared to step out of line. UN. BE. LIEV. ABLE.

peter

Johnnie,

Well, you should have learned that there are at least a few people who are not intimidated by James White and his destruction team of minions. If James White wants to debate the issue about whether or not his words concerning women were biblically appropriate or not, he knows how to find my site.

Now, unless you have a legitimate contribution or a real question, please refrain from hurling barbs and walking away.

With that, I am...
Peter

jaiotu

Ray,
I am most certain that James White sins, has sinned, and will continue to sin. If I wanted to take the time, I'm sure I could even find an example where he has done so in public.
And if you can show me clearly, from scripture, where White's comments in this particular instance can conclusively be categorized as sin, then I would be forced to recognize it as so.
What you or I might find offensive is not what defines sin. God's Word does.
I'm not defending White by pointing out that what he said does not meet the Biblical definition of sin. I'm pointing out that it's the Bible that sets that standard, not culture.

peter

Mary,

You are most welcome.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter

jaiotu

Look. You've already demonstrated your knack for continuing to argue a failed point on the ridiculous assertion with me over the literary usage of "crawled away like a whipped mongrel." Now, you attempt to suggest unless someone (Roy) can show an explicit biblical injunction prohibiting White's (& Pierce's) exact language, then his (their) insulting language cannot be demonstrated as liable to moral guilt which is quite absurd.

I suggest this: if all you're wanting to do is tit/tat, jaiotu, you really need to find another venue to do so. I'm speaking only for myself but personally I am in no mood to walk you through step-by-step on how it is not necessary to have explicit biblical injunctions stated about a particular moral matter before one may legitimately judge the behavior morally unacceptable. Please.

With that, I am...
Peter

Roy

@Johnnie,

Your response reveals two things:

1. You don't know what ad hominem means.
2. You are reciting your talking points well.

I'm sure Mr. White will give you a cookie, or a bozo button, for at least getting half of that right.

What you are saying is that if a university, or any educational institution, or place of employment, requires standards to show education, if they inquire about such things, they are committing ad hominem attacks.

In fact, let's play this game. I hereby bestow a medical degree on myself. After all, I'm a human being, so I know about the body, and I have researched lots of things on the internet. I think I shall go to a nearby hospital, apply for a job, and when they ask me about the degree I made up, I shall say, in true James White fashion,

“You, sir, are attacking me ad hominem!”

And maybe top it off with a,

“You, sir, are a liar!”

@jaiotu

Is it a sin for me to call someone's mother a whore? How about calling someone's sister a fat cow? Maybe, as DBH seems to believe, we can debate even as to whether or not it's even wrong(or maybe that's only if James White does it).

The Bible defines sin as many things. It is certainly not restricted to the 10 Commandments. But, in fact, when Jesus summarized the 10 Commandments into two, the second being loving your neighbor as yourself(Matthew 22:39). It is pure, unadulterated hatred, what James White and Rich Pierce did. They are insulting women in the most personal and hurtful way, as Mary will tell you, and really, any woman will tell you.

Might want to jump off the James White bandwagon now before it crashes in the ravine. It's only a matter of time.
http://bible.cc/proverbs/16-18.htm

Roy

Regarding Mr. White's "doctorate"

http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31214&sid=392530cdef6a21e1f93f269f0e66d2c7

"His "Ph.D" is bogus... (there's evidence on the internet which is pretty clear cut, but I don't have time to track it down)..."

That's about 6 years ago on some Catholic forum. Does anyone see why this is a problem? Many people have a difficult time listening to his message because they already see him as lacking credibility because of his dishonesty regarding his "doctorate."

Why, why, WHY does he continue to try to convince everyone that he has a doctorate? It isn't just Catholics that are aware of this, it is Mormons, Muslims, and even other believers.

Doesn't he realize that he's coming across as dishonest and he hurts the cause he claims to support? Every time one of these televangelists goes down in flames, many associate them with Christians living Biblical lives. It hurts the entire body.

Does Mr. White not realize that he is hurting the name of Christ and Christians by continuing to be so dishonest about his education? And what's worse, he claims it is in fact "persecution" for his pursuit of Christ. Really? Lying for Christ?

Please, James "Benny Hinn" White, stop digging! You're already in a deep enough hole!

I really think his followers need to have an intervention with him.

Roy

Regarding Mr. White's "doctorate"

http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31214&sid=392530cdef6a21e1f93f269f0e66d2c7

"His "Ph.D" is bogus... (there's evidence on the internet which is pretty clear cut, but I don't have time to track it down)..."

That's about 6 years ago on some Catholic forum. Does anyone see why this is a problem? Many people have a difficult time listening to his message because they already see him as lacking credibility because of his dishonesty regarding his "doctorate."

Why, why, WHY does he continue to try to convince everyone that he has a doctorate? It isn't just Catholics that are aware of this, it is Mormons, Muslims, and even other believers.

Doesn't he realize that he's coming across as dishonest and he hurts the cause he claims to support? Every time one of these televangelists goes down in flames, many associate them with Christians living Biblical lives. It hurts the entire body.

Does Mr. White not realize that he is hurting the name of Christ and Christians by continuing to be so dishonest about his education? And what's worse, he claims it is in fact "persecution" for his pursuit of Christ. Really? Lying for Christ?

Please, James "Benny Hinn" White, stop digging! You're already in a deep enough hole!

I really think his followers need to have an intervention with him.

Geoff

I googled one of the names here, Rich Pierce, and found the following:

http://www.a2z.org/acts/articles/jw_plagiarism_white_pierce.htm

I'm a bit shocked at some of the quotes here:

James White (NA27) and Rich Pierce (aomin)


[09:38] You have no idea how utterly petty you look with this kind of stupidity.
[09:39] Too late, Scott. I'm posting your accusation on OUR website so that people can see the kind of activities you people engage in.
[09:39] and YOU, had to be a JERK about it and SLANDER Dr. White....just so you could


[09:40] HE NEVER RECEIEVED A PAYCHECK
[09:40] THAT IS WORKING YOU JERKL

[09:41] YOU ARE A JERK! PLAIN AND SIMPLE AND SO IS MR. BROWN AND I INTEND TO INFORM HIM OF IT!

[09:44] SIR! AND YES, IT TEND TO GET A GOOD BIT MORE EMOTIONAL THAN JAMES DOES. CAUSE I DON'T LIKE JERKS, WHO COULD CARE LESS ABOUT TRUTH....BTW HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT WORKING FOR THE ENQUIRER? YOU WOULD DO WELL THERE!
[09:44] *** Parts: aomin (~Rich_Pier@cpe-24-221-125-165.az.sprintbbd.net)

jaiotu

Peter,
I don't see myself engaging in tit for tat.
What I see here is a bunch of people engaging in the exact same kind of tactics that they blame James White's supporters of. Claiming that the "Whiteheads" will never admit that White does any wrong while at the same time refusing to aknowledge that he could ever do anything right.
I've been cordial in simply trying to offer another point of view.
I get the point. Since I'm not joining the crowd calling for White to be "burned at the stake," I'm not welcome here. It's your blog.

May God richly bless you and your readers.

With that, I am...
Gone.

Mike

I'm not a Christian, but I do admire the Christians here who are holding James White accountable. I can't believe that White's followers on here refuse to admit that he said something wrong because the bible doesn't clearly say that it's wrong. Continuing the theme of a previous poster, if I were to say to someone, "I look forward to dancing on the grave of your dead mom!" would that not be wrong because the Bible doesn't say, "thou shall not tell another that they will dance on the grave of their dead mom"? Come on. Get a clue, guys. You guys criticize Catholics for their adherence to the pope. You do the same thing with James White. He is your pope.

Roy

@jaiotu,

Are you intentionally being dishonest here? It's hard to see that you could be doing much else. You sit and argue about the fact that what Mr. White did is not even a sin, and those, such as us, who see it as such are wanting to burn him at the stake?

You are making my point. You guys truly believe that any criticism or rejection of James White's tactics is not acceptable. In fact, anyone who observes or notices what he is doing is doing just as bad as he is, if not worse. You are not being cordial, you are trying to hide your near cultish defense of Mr. White and everything he does behind smooth talk, and doing the same diversionary nonsense that Mr. White does.

The idea that people trying to hold White accountable is akin to wanting to burn him at the stake is ridiculous, particularly when it's Mr. White that believes such things are historically acceptable(i.e. Servatus). The fact that you would turn that around and say those who disagree with him want to burn him at the stake is just being hysterical and dishonest.

As I said to DBH, that pig don't fly. I do not believe you are being genuine or sincere at all. You are not, at all, offering just another point of view. You are saying any point of view other than what the followers of White has is hateful, bigoted, unbiblical, and akin to wanting to burn the guy alive. Ridiculous.

We're not going to let him get away with this anymore, period.

Mary

I'm still marveling over this idea that Jimmie and his sycophants think there is something to debate in regards to his fake docterate. It is precisely because of frauds like Jiimmie that we have to have accreditation boards and standards. There are standards as to what constitutes genuine PHd's precisely because there are people like Jimmie who think all they have to do is declare themselves a doctor. It's precisely because of people like Jimmie who thinks he doesn't have to follow the rules like everyone else because he is just so darn "special" It's because there are frauds like Jimmie who want to commit frauds against people by claiming "trust me I'm a doctor" There's nothing to debate. There's nothing his "critics" need to address with Jimmie. It doesn't matter why Jimmie took the path he did. The path he took led directly to a fake doctorate. Dems the facts. It's exactly because of people like Jimmie that there are standards put in place so we don't need to have discussions about what constitutes real doctorates. Jimmie doesn't like the rules since he didn't make them and he and his sycophants think the rules don't apply to them. He's a fraud that the accreditation process was established to expose and protect against.

Ray

jaiotu,

"at the same time refusing to aknowledge that he could ever do anything right."

Peter has said that White can be an effective and efficient debater, it's when the formal atmosphere disappears that he stumbles and needs Ephesians 4:29, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 7:3-5, James 3 to be brought to his attention.

The problem seems to be that he is surrounded by enablers. I've seen this countless times with fundamentalists (some here have called it 'cultlike').

as much as I don't agree with much of Driscoll's philosophy and methodology he has a very good message about 'fundamentalism'. he warns the church to be wary if you have a teacher in your life that [in your mind] can do no wrong.


"where White's comments in this particular instance can conclusively be categorized as sin"

this is "rotten" talk I dont understand how you can't see this.

one could delve further into white's logic and begin to make a case for how flippantly he connects women's looks to heresy. who could make light of heresy while degrading women's worth (btw both issues grieve God's heart)?.
someone disconnected from the reality of his words (read james 3).


in the larger picture every person that white slanders on the internet he needs to reconcile with. he has all the power to 'agree to disagree' but he constantly takes the low road.

Roy

@Mike,

I appreciate your objectivity here. You have to understand what people like Jaiotu and DBH face if they dare to be reasonable and honest with what is going on with Mr. White.

I know it's tempting to look at jaitou's post right there and allow your jaw to drop. After all, you have a supporter of James White refusing to call him to ask for the hateful and vicious things that he does, but instead, using hyperbole and other nonsense in order to make those who NOTICE what Mr. White does to be far worse than Mr. White could ever be. This is the old “shoot the messenger” approach. You know, don't blame the guy doing the stuff, blame the people who see him doing it.

I have a lot of friends that work with the James White crowd, and belong in the James White crowd, and I have been told about the consequences they face if they ever dare to go against Mr. White and not follow his latest crusade against this or that person. They can lose friends, job and ministry opportunities, and even be considered unregenerate and not saved.

That being said, I can understand the fear and trepidation that jaiotu and DBH have regarding dealing with Mr. White. It's much easier for them to blame the people pointing things out than actually blame James White for DOING these things. The objective observer would look at jaiotu's comments and think he was being intentionally dishonest in using crass hyperbole(burning at the stake, seriously?) for people who don't support White, while ignoring the fact that you don't need to use hyperbole or exaggeration to show the extreme hatred, anger, and viciousness of White... you can just quote him. But as I said, you have to realize, if they allowed themselves to be open and honest about Mr. White, they face far more repercussions than if they just go after his critics and people who objectively question what he does.

It's like Animal Farm. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. Look at the viciousness in the previous post where Mr. White and Mr. Pierce started attacking that Catholic guy. It's all about winning the argument to these people and shoving their opponent's face into the ground. Salvation is a secondary issue. The primary issue is being right.

Roy

To all,

I did want to mention one glaring note of hypocrisy with Mr. White and Mr. Pierce. I read that earlier link when they viciously attacked that Catholic guy for an issue they had with him, with Rich Pierce calling the guy names and screaming at him. High quality Christian behavior, no doubt.

But what I wanted to mention is that they justify slandering people online under the guise of "exposing them" for "truth" or something. They have a habit of posting emails, or parts of emails, that people sent to them privately.

The problem with all of this, among other things, is one of White's chief attack dogs, "Turretinfan," continues to slander people, attack people, and generally act unchristlike. Yet, he is able to remain anonymous, and AOMin is complicit in all of this.

So, this guy, turretin@hotmail.com, is able to anonymously attack anyone and everyone that disagrees with Mr. White, yet he's allowed to remain anonymous. As we can see, from Mr. White's perspective, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander. Everyone who questions Mr. White must be publicly and viciously maligned, attacked, etc and Mr. White sends his attack dogs on them to destroy their reputation, but he allows one of those attack dogs to remain anonymous, post on his website, etc.

The hypocrisy here is amazing.

Mary

"" They can lose friends, job and ministry opportunities, and even be considered unregenerate and not saved.""


They need to flee as far away as possible and flee as quickly as possible. This is part of the classic definition of a cult and if they are in congregations or communities of "christians" who act like this they need to get out. This is not the body of Christ and has nothing to do with anything biblical for people to be treated this way. This is truly spiritual abuse and has nothing to do with Christ. If there are people who have evidence that James White behaves in this manner then they need to come forward and expose him so he can stop abusing his followers.

Samuel F.

Mr. Roy,

Turretinfan is listed with the hostname of

turretin.kgb.ru

on their chat server. That means hes using a proxy to hide his true identity in terms of where he is chatting from.

Riddick

"Turretinfan" is not quite as anonymous as he thinks. We know that he works at Squire, Sanders & Dempsey L.L.P. in Cleveland, Ohio (4900 Key Tower 127 Public Square Cleveland, OH. 44144-1304: Telephone = 216.479.8500 Fax = 216.479.8780); and that he sometimes uses the IP address 206.18.111.5.

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