Does James White and Alpha & Omega Ministries Embrace Misogyny? by Peter Lumpkins

UPDATE:  "Dr" James White has answered and completely refuted this post!  I am sorry to inform all my friends, James White has answered my piece with the devastating critique below. Take a moment and read it in full:

"The current spate of angry and vile (let alone loony and dishonest) attack being hosted by Peter Lumpkins seems to be related in large part to vengeance over the exposure of Ergun Caner."

You see, my angry questioning of James White's misogynist language is shown to not only be vile, dishonest, and loony, but directly connected with Ergun Caner.

I now see why the whole world fears the mind-blowing analytical skills of Alpha & Omega.

With that, I am...

Peter

=============

On a recent comment thread at SBC Tomorrow, an unusual number of comments were logged concerning James White's disrespectful comments toward women.  I took the time to listen to the broadcast in question. I now understand precisely why one Christian lady took extreme offense at White's remarks>>>

Below is an audio collage with three snippets pulled from the same broadcast.  If you want to listen to the entire Dividing Line program, you may download it here. Otherwise, the clips below are just under three minutes combined:

For my part, to even begin to defend this nonsense on the public airways is morally absurd.  James White and his trusty sidekick, Rich Pierce, need to publicly apologize for these offensive remarks toward not only Mormon women, but ethnic women. Imagine the indefensible embarrassment and shame missionaries would feel if  White and Pierce's words were to be broadcast to their cross-cultural contexts. 

If Russian women look like Russian men, what is the comparison that can be drawn between Polish men and women? What about Swedish men and women?  My son is married to a Swede and lives in Norrkoping, Sweden. And, here Christian ministries are making sport of the way ethnic women appear. As a Swede, does she have manly characteristics? What are these guys thinking?

In addition, were I a supporter of James White, I have to tell you, I'd be wondering what he was saying about my wife to everybody else. And, all those trips to Salt Lake where there's really some "pretty women up there." How does this make the Mormons feel to whom White claims he loves and ministers? Does it lead to greater opportunities to share the love of the Lord Jesus? Does it earn him respect in Mormon subculture? If so, how?  If it hurts, why would this be said, and why would White's supporters defend such crass behavior?   

What's more, even if Pierce nor White intentionally meant to, they projected a typical, 21st century playboy philosophy--i.e,  women are objects to view...and men want worthy objects to view...worthy women are beautiful women, women pleasing to the eye. A woman's worth starts with her outward beauty.

Nor may my lament be dismissed as hostile simply because I am not "Reformed."  One Reformed Christian lady and a supporter of James White had this stinging critique:

"WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE MEN!? Phil Johnson posting "ugly mugshots" for shock value and then defending it when confronted and further insulting those who dared to confront him. This kind of boorish behavior is not right especially from Christian men. I thought White was a gentleman? We can't all be trophy wives like his, I guess. First John Piper pronouncing Rick Warren orthodox, then Phil Johnson in the wake of that, then Bob DeWaay stumbling, then Chris Rosebrough acting completely off, and falsely accusing Ingrid and Deb Dombrowski, then James White acting like a boor? I'm scared to think what's next.

This is the kind of juvenile "your mama is so ugly" stuff people like Richie Abanes does if you are a woman who criticizes Rick Warren. I can't even mention the sort of personal insult that might be necessary to illustrate a comparable insult to a man.

What on earth is going on? I can't imagine someone like Macarthur ever saying something like this. Will we see R C Sproul making jokes about the size of a woman's bust or seat? Perhaps flat chested women could've turned Sproul into an Arminian.

(I agree, it's tasteless and it sets my teeth on edge even to type that out).

It makes me literally want to cry sometimes. Every time I turn around truth is stumbling in the streets. Not just out in the world, but inside the church. Not only in the church, but in the very watchmen who are supposed to be on guard up on the city wall.

If there ever was a time for Southern Baptists to squeeze an influence out, it is now. Misogynist language like this coupled with White's Hyper-Calvinist theology is simply too much for Southern Baptists.

With that, I am...

Peter 

 

Comments

[David]

Roy,

We might possibly need a language translator as somehow you keep misunderstanding what I'm saying. I think it might help if I break it down further:

1. I have never specifically addressed you or made any comments directed at you prior to you addressing me.
2. I noticed quite a bit of commentary that seemed to me to be quite uncharitable, regardless of who made it. Because I did not bother to read the names at the bottom of the post apparently one I copied and pasted was made by you. This I did not realize, but I certainly do now, you are quite proud of this.
3. I'm thinking "seems like people should not be calling names and ripping people, but instead either encouraging or rebuking in love, but certainly not going after anyone". Apparently that's not the way you see things. Because I gather together a quick group of verbatim quotes from some of the people here you were unfortunately added in, which has led to much dismay on your part. I would like to formally remove you from the list, and apologize to everyone else that used the word "moron… Tasteless shrimp,etc.". Your name is officially unassociated with anyone that said these things. If you believe they were right also I'm certain you can easily document and justify why this is so as well. I mean, "the bad guy" definitely does worse, right? Until he repents and changes everything else is fair game, which of course I fully agree with. I mean that is what we were called to do.
4. You assume much too much familiarity with JW and AOM. My summary: I don't sleep well, I listen to stuff at night while working from… my basement… Never given a dollar, never supported or corresponded or anything else that would allow for even a remote idea of "on that side". In fact, I have had much more correspondence with… PETER!
5. Not one to beat a dead horse, it is probably a good idea to love others, NEVER repay evil for evil or insult for insult, but instead… Well, you know. I think.

Finally, I did learn one other thing regarding the "with that I am…" phrase. I was unaware that others had hijacked this and used it mockingly. Me, I just thought it was really clever, nothing more. Your opinion that it was done in an effort to mock says quite a bit. I will leave you to determine exactly what that is as you seem to be very good with your opinions and quite able to discern the facts presciently and without equivocation.

You win the fight fought by yourself with yourself unto yourself. I will go back to my miserable attempts at charity and allow you to continue on the crusade. Best wishes in your endeavors in this regards.

With this, I am… Thinking Peter is clever and I would gladly meet him with a smile should the opportunity ever present itself. I tend to mimic those I admire. With that… David.

[Roy]

@David,

And, yet again, you credit me with things I did not say. Instead, you make misleading comments implying I did, in fact, say those things, when I only made that Benny Hinn comment.

Regarding the Benny Hinn comment, I have explained, ad nauseum, my reasons for saying that, and you still have not shown how it is hateful and unchristlike. In fact, it seems you think that pasting it repeatedly makes the point for you.

I'd encourage you to steer clear of the “drive-by slander” stuff in regards to saying how hateful and unchristlike people are, then running/driving off, and acting like they are uptight when they want you to explain yourself. The sarcasm doesn't help either. In fact, it comes across as quite hypocritical.

I know what is in my heart, and I know I have no hatred for James White. It's not imperative to me that you agree with that. But you need to understand that you continuing to say you are right is not in itself convincing when you have no explanation as to why, but just “because.”

Finally, I would encourage you, again, if you are so concerned about christlike behavior, that it might do more good to spend some time talking to AOMin about this, as they dish it out on a daily basis, and unlike here, you won't have to strain to make a case for it. That is, of course, if you truly do care about such things.

P.S. Your “with that, I am” signoffs seem to be mocking Peter, in my opinion. Coincidentally, Mr. White has done this as well.

[David]

Roy,

I can understand why someone saying the following is not accepted by you as uncharitable:

James White arrongant prideful mysoginist jerk.

He's as interesting and tasteless as over-cooked shrimp. No thanks. The man is a moron.

besides, who has time the to call in to every "basement theologian" homejob webcast

Please, James "Benny Hinn" White, stop digging! You're already in a deep enough hole!

I'm still marveling over this idea that Jimmie and his sycophants think there is something to debate in regards to his fake docterate.

I accept your judgment that the above is acceptable behavior for Christians. This is a point at which we will have to differ. I accept this also. I think this may be a little more of a club that I realized, as I mistakenly viewed this forum have somewhat of a public meeting place where people interact without insult and injury. This was my fault, as I was never told this is true, but only assume such. I stand corrected. Where I come from we don't call people morons, as that is viewed in my neck of the woods as insulting rather than a godly rebuke. I work out of my basement, also, so that might possibly account for some of my inability to understand why the above copy and pasted comments are not a problem. Silly me.

I am glad I became Christian before I met a lot of Christians or I would probably have never heard the Clarion call of the gracious Savior beckoning me to repent. I have found peace through the years by simply saying, "I am wrong, you're right, holy God". Again, for me being right has never been really important, so I accept that you probably have the upper hand here in every way. I think the only difference between us is that I just wanted to be a nice guy without name-calling and insults, and when I saw the above (just to name a few comments, as there were quite a bit more) I tried to say "hey, let's not belittle others, but in love admonish, reproved, and encourage each other". Guess that was asking too much. I mean, I must be a JW adherent (although I am emphatically stated we are miles apart theologically, have never corresponded, but I'm just someone that enjoys formal debates), or I would not say, "as tasteless as overcooked shrimp" was not the best way to describe a professing Christian. Again, I am found to be incorrect in my understanding of what is truly loving and charitable behavior.

With that, I submit my last comment and allow you to continue the good fight... of faith. David.

[Roy]

@David,

I have to say, I'm rather disappointed in your response. You accused me and others of hateful and unchristlike conduct, and now claim that when I want some proof for your accusations, I'm simply taking the ball and running with it much father than you envisioned. What did you envision when you made those accusations? That we'd just say “you are right?” If you want to back off your original claims, that's fine, but don't act disingenuous about it. You still have not shown me what it is that I said that was hateful or unchristlike, and I explained clearly the reason I made the comparison between Hinn and White.

The fact that you are in disbelief about the idea that James White considers all disagreement and criticism of him personal, and personally responds in a vicious manner, makes it clear to me that you will not be convinced. There's ample evidence on this blog ALONE of people who he has disagreed with that he has went after. But you are not interested in that, instead, you set the goal post from here to infinity by implying that unless I can document every single time White has been criticized, he claims it is personal, that it is therefore not true. One needs only Google “james white” and “ad hominem” to see.

I would encourage you to step outside of your box, google “James White” and, say, “doctorate” some time, and you will see, with that issue alone, Mr. White is considered dubious. He specifically says those who have issues with his “education” are committing “ad hominem” attacks on him. Look how much flack Peter is getting from him and his whiteheads for daring to disagree with him.

I do hope you are sincere in the other portions of your post, but I can tell you this, coming in here and accusing us of hatred and unchristlikeness taints future sincerity about peace and love.

[David]

Roy,

I thank you for your response. A couple of quick thoughts:

You say "I stress that James White considers ALL disagreement with him as insults and pejoratives". I ask you for very clear documentation, not secondary but primary sources. Not examples, because that would be subjective, but objective evidence. I will wait for your reply.

I think what I'm trying to get at is that this is a never ending endeavor. I tried to use some examples to simply say "love one another…" As well as all the things that go with it. Nothing more than that. You pick up the ball and ran with it much further than I ever envisioned. My personal opinion which has absolutely no value whatsoever is that you that being right and winning more than I do. I don't want to win at all, especially this type of "contest". I would like to personally and publicly concede the back and forth discussions to you.

I do not doubt your sincerity even slightly, but I do doubt that what was accomplished is productive and ultimately edifying. Without writing a book all we can simply do is to briefly admonish and encourage. Always there will be someone that is wiser and more skilled, or even more persistent. You are all pretty good at all of this whereas I am nothing more than nothing at all--just a guy that loves Jesus for 30 years and is trying to love others graciously and always forgiving, shallow Christian that I am. I'm sure you're doing the same.

I stopped by, read a few comments, and received an enormous amount of education while trying to encourage brothers and grow at the same time. The education I received was quite extensive and valuable. I will consider myself informed, schooled, but most of all, wiser than when this all began. Because I do not want to do the work of a scholar or the footnotes of a scribe I will refrain from further comment lest they be interpreted as anything other than friendly comments from a brother in Christ, rather than mistakenly interpreted as a request for extensive debate and argument.

All the best to you, my brother. May your heart always be filled with the love of God and your hand empty of everything about love and patience with charity.

With that, I am… gladly humbled.David

[Roy]

@David,

A few things seem to be going on here:

“because what you're really most uncomfortable with is”

How do you know what I'm uncomfortable with? I have rejected your premise from the beginning, and that means all the ancillary things attached to it.

“ You seem to believe that because JW acted wrongly it's not acceptable to point out when someone else uses pejorative and insult to "get even".”

I do? Why do you not provide examples for any of these claims? I have repeatedly called for James White to stop doing what he's doing, how does that equate to insulting to get even?

You still haven't shown me how what I did was hateful, you just claim it is just because. This is James White logic. I truly do not want James White to keep digging, as all he has done with refusing to “reform” himself is make himself look more foolish in terms of his doctorate, and create more enemies and conflict for himself, and cause others to broad-brush believers and associate his conduct with them. I do not want him to become a laughing stock of hypocrisy like Benny Hinn, not only for the sake of it, but also because other believers get associated with it.

Slapping a Bible verse on the end of your comment and acting like, “it's you verses the Bible” is pretty disingenuous, particularly when you still haven't shown how I contradicted the verse other than just because you claimed I did. You may as well slap “Jesus wept” on the end of a point you are making and imply that you obviously cannot be wrong, since you used a Bible verse in making your point.

The one thing I want to stress to you, after all this, is that James White considers ALL disagreement with him as insults and pejoratives that are against him personally.

[David]

Roy,

Thank you for your comments. It's funny, because what you're really most uncomfortable with is me saying "do not insult and do not call names" about another human being. Really? That's really bad, isn't it? I never tried to justify anything James White does, as I don't have strong feelings either way. Have I seen him go too far? Yes, and I have said so and I mentioned that I e-mailed him regarding his EC obsession. You seem to believe that because JW acted wrongly it's not acceptable to point out when someone else uses pejorative and insult to "get even". I don't think so. In fact, I think you specifically are called to do just the opposite. "Do not return evil for evil, insult for insult, instead pray for blessings..." 1 Peter 3:8-9. I'm sure you would agree with this, correct? Let me say this differently, no matter what James White does you are called to return a blessing, not insult, or return evil for evil. You are commanded to do so by the living God you worship. This is not optional, and if you want to be like Jesus your savior this you will gladly do. This is all I have said. At the risk of being redundant, me going after James White for uncharitable and unacceptable behavior is not or was never the topic. "Love your enemies, turn the other cheek". I am comfortable being guilty for suggesting we all do this, myself included, and acknowledging my failures are plentiful. If you would like to disagree with the application of the Scriptures you are going to have a hard time swimming upstream of Scripture. Better to go with the flow of love.

With that, I am... showing love to you wishing you the best. David.

[Roy]

@David,

One more thing. Just for the record, James White and his fans consider ALL criticism to be insulting and hateful. Just keep that in mind.

[Roy]

@Yahya,

I wasn't saying you were the Muslim version of Mr. Wood and Mr. White. I was saying I've seen your attacks on both groups, and it comes across as hypocritical for you to get on the case of others, particularly erroneously.

I think you're still missing the point here regarding the “doctor.” For one thing, you are equating claiming he does not have a legitimate doctorate which entitles him to be called 'doctor', which is what I have said, to me saying he has forged his doctorate. That is not the same thing, at all.

Even if I were to say Mr. White lied about his doctorate, that still is not the same thing as saying he forged it.

Apparently there was some confusion, so this is what I will say about it, as my position.

Mr. White is open with the fact, at least on his website, that he does not have an accredited doctorate. However, he continually refers to himself as “doctor” which implies he received an accredited doctorate. In fact, I didn't even KNOW he was not in fact a doctor, as he had not received an accredited doctorate, till someone told me and I bothered looking it up.

In short, he misleads people into thinking he has something and has achieved something he has not, when he continually refers to himself as “doctor.” And on top of all that, he berates those who have gotten accreditation and have earned the title, but requires others to refer to him with the title that implies he has the accreditation.

I hope that clearly explains my position.

@David,

I can only respond for what I have said here:

“Please, James "Benny Hinn" White, stop digging! You're already in a deep enough hole!”

I do not think that is hateful. I'm truly being sincere in the fact that Mr. White will become as big of a joke as Benny Hinn if he continues to do what he's doing. I intentionally made the comparison.

I DO hope Mr. White repents and I have prayed for him.

But, all of that aside, you pointed out a few comments you think are inappropriate. I wonder, as Mr. White and his followers do this 24/7, how many times have you taken them to ask for their far more hateful and incendiary comments? Let us know when you do.

[David]

Hi Ray,

I enjoyed your commentary and I agree regarding Peter not playing the nanny is helpful. It is a benefit to everyone we realized that all the necessary it is for a Halo to slip 9 inches and it becomes a noose!

Best wishes for a great day. Take care.

With that I am… Comforted. David.

[Ray]

David,

I agree with much of what you are saying, I only took that one quote because it was mine.

Yes, I do think things have gotten a little out of hand in certain areas of the thread (even earlier in the thread I mentioned the 'moron' comment as being wrong). But there are good, constructive things in this thread too.

I think it would be good to examine what an insult really is. Yes insults are hurtful. Criticism can be hurtful but it doesn't necessarily mean it's an insult. And I think that is primarily what is going on here. "Wounds of a friend... " and so forth.

All in all, thank you for bringing a gracious spirit to the this combox David.

p.s. I appreciate that Peter doesn't act like a mommy on his blog and pamper us or censor every dot and tittle of every comment.

[David]

Ray,

Thanks for your response. However, you are not really playing by "the rules" here. You clearly stated "I will not subscribe to the idea that all criticism of White is hateful". I responded that criticism is not hateful, but that the insults were hateful and wrong. I provided quite a few examples and you took one of them, just one, and ignored all of the name-calling in comments that were clearly insulting. Really? Is that really prove your point? Review the statements from others that I copied and pasted and tell me whether you think those are insults or attempts at constructive criticism. Look at each one. All I ever said was name calling and insults were wrong, not criticisms. Seems like you are raising objections to arguments that were not made and countering points that were not raised. Let me try this differently: do you believe the comments that I copied and pasted were intended as insults (most people would think "moron" is an insult and name-calling, that is if they wanted to be fair and objective and honest)?

How in the world you can take issue with my request to not insult and call names, but instead show the love of God to both brothers and enemies is beyond me. I never said "agree with them… Do not criticize them… Do not point out their errors…", ever. I said show charity and not be guilty of doing the same thing others are doing it-never returning evil for evil. Does that sound a little familiar, kind of like a command from God? I'm thinking so. I'm sure you will agree.

With that, I am… Wondering. David.

[peter lumpkins]

Yahya

Thanks. I appreciate your willingness to humbly admit your error on the one hand and show how others may not have understood your intent on the other. I agree with Ray & Roy that sometimes we may be missing each other due to language barrier (mostly because personally I speak only Tennessean with a bit of West Georgia spice :^)

May the Lord be pleased to give us all grace.
With that, I am...
Peter

[Ray]

yahya,

i appreciate your clarity, and yea I thought there may have been something lost in translation. i understand now that you desired honesty.

to clarify my "fake" comments. real doctors refer to people who get unaccredited doctorates as "quacks" or "fakes".

because the work involved in getting those could be anything from paying a $20 administration fee to writing a lay-man's book on theology.

see, this is where there needs to be accountability and some kind if plumbline that measures the quality of education.
YES, the system can be taken advantage of, or it can produce worthless doctors but that doesn't mean it's ok to "poison the well" on accreditation.

white has a sad story about why he went the path that he did (including financial issues, family issues, living close to parents). thats life sir.

I've heard plenty of stories about scholars who have taken the accredited road and it was tough on them and their family, they've never said it was gumdrops and unicorns.

David,

"besides, who has time the to call in to every "basement theologian" homejob webcast"

I can't see where I am in error here. This is not a criticism nor is it an insult, these are facts.

Have you seen the youtube videos where he spouts his theological criticisms? It's in a basement.
Have you heard his "division line" webcast? it's a homejob.

My point was, there are a multitude of white's out there. I'm not going to call into every one of their homemade shows just to argue and strengthen their base.

[Yahya Snow]

Peter,

I must say, I do recognise your desire for accuracy. I appreciate this. I want to state I never had you in mind as a person who is misleading people. I understand and appreciate your thorough investigation. My concern was with Muslims going away with flawed conclusions – “where could they have come from”, I thought.

Thus, I went with the idea that yourself, Dave Armstrong and Dr Owen have presented the respective investigations thoroughly and FAITHFULLY but other commentators drew flawed conclusions (i.e. White has a fake degree or was lying concerning his having achieved the said qualification).

Obviously, these “commentators” have no bearing on you.

I reiterate, I NEVER considered you to be amongst those who I thought were misleading folk.

I apologise if I upset/misconstrued ANYBODY on this site. That is NOT what I intended. I’m simply trying to get to the bottom of the issue and simplify it so Muslims do not fall into error.

I hope you can recognise the sincerity. I can assure you I am NOT the Muslim version of James White. I understand you folk do consider him to be a little less than upfront. I do too. Browse the James White section – I have caught the fella in less than honest behaviour in the past.

In fact, I have just recently uploaded a screenshot of him claiming to know Arabic (on his FaceBook). He does not know Arabic. Obviously he is either over-selling himself or has made an error in haste. However, FB is a regular visit so surely he would have noticed the error if he made it in haste – so it seems less likely White made it in haste.

You can certainly use the screenshot if you wish to investigate the issue:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/02/why-did-james-white-claim-to-know.html

I am not a Christian or White supporter in disguise. I, like you, am simply trying to critique folk as fairly as possible. I do leave my comment sections open and always offer my email so folk and can call me up on errors – that is for accountability and a gesture of sincerity on my part.

With your hosting of my comments, I recognise you are a man who has a desire for accuracy and accountability too. NOBODY has a monopoly on critique and NOBODY is above critique either – including James. However, critique must be balanced – we all make mistakes at times as we are humans but the real test of character comes into play when one has to respond to faithful critique – White does not respond well which does militate against him. You have responded in a manner which I would expect from a man of faith.

[Yahya Snow]

Ray and more specifically Roy (as Roy was mentioned earlier). Below is the link in which I took some of your comments.

http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2011/02/bart-ehrman-honks-james-whites-nose-by-peter-lumpkins.html#comments

Ray: “hack scholar”

If/when he finds humility and earns a real doctorate he will not be so flippant with subjects outside of his expertise

doctorates have the same thing with dissertations and boards and peer review, something that fake doctorates like white never had to go through

according to your logic any joe-six-pack who writes a book that sells a few hundred should be handed a doctorate. no sir.

NOTE: Obviously Rays comments can possibly be misconstrued. Especially by Muslims (as English may not be their first language). This is my concern.

As for Roy..

Roy: Why are you still referring to Mr. White as "Dr." White? He's as much a Dr. as "Dr. J." the basketball player was

He specifically DOES claim to be something he is not.... a doctor

NOTE: Roy effectively accuses the man of lying when he claims to be a doctor. He is a doctor as he has a doctorate. OK, the doctorate is unaccredited but if he calls himself a “Dr” then he is NOT lying!
You can imagine folk going away with a flawed understanding.

Ror + Ray, I know you folk will state you base those claims upon a lack of accreditation (and there is a context) BUT people who are new to the scene could well go away thinking James has forged/faked his degree. Sadly, Muslims have gone away with the wrong impression.

Of course, the comment from Mary (in this thread) is straight forward and presents White’s degree as “fake”. So people going away with a distorted reality is a very real concern.

For some reason, Muslims are confused on this issue greatly. As there are a number of rabble rousers on the net who claim Muslims are allowed to “lie” to the “infidel”, we MUSLIMS must ensure accuracy as a genuine error through misunderstanding people will leave us open to the crazies promoting their Islamophobic drivel.

Of course, these concerns are not limited to the comment sections on this blog - The Catholic and Mormon commentators must be careful not to misconstrue or exaggerate.

I believe I have broke it down in a simple fashion by confirming the bloke has a doctorate and the only issue is that of accreditation – so it is not a fake/forged qualification and the bloke is not deceiving us by appending the title of “Dr” to his name.

At the end of the day – simple is best as there are folk who do struggle with English as their second/third language and thus misconceptions can develop in the Muslim community.

I reiterate, I am not an apologist for James White. I’m simply looking to be fair and help facilitate a sounder understanding amongst Muslims and others on the net.

I do recant the “forged” comment. I sifting through the comment briefly and I could not find a comment of Roy making the “forged” claim. Perhaps this word stuck in my mind as another commentator (perhaps a Muslim) may have used it – on a different site!

[Yahya Snow]

@Ray, please stop with the insulting. I don't appreciate such a comment.

If I state something and make a genuine error I allow for corrction from others. There is no need for you to attempt to besmirch my character.

I saw the responses on this thread yesterday and did intend to respond last night. I was unable to respond so here I am holding myself to your scrutiny.

I am NOT the Muslim version of White or Wood. We do value accountability. I understand you may be upset after my post and comments - that's fine. I am here to explain myself and recant on some points directed at Roy.

Please read my comments and appreciate the sincerity.

Thanks you.

[David]

Roy,

You addressed me specifically so I will respond to you directly. I have never said nor do I believe that all criticism of James White (or any other person) is hateful by default. I said that the name-calling and insulting behavior here was wrong. Do you not agree with that statement? How about a few of these comments:

James White arrongant prideful mysoginist jerk.

He's as interesting and tasteless as over-cooked shrimp. No thanks. The man is a moron.

besides, who has time the to call in to every "basement theologian" homejob webcast

Please, James "Benny Hinn" White, stop digging! You're already in a deep enough hole!

I'm still marveling over this idea that Jimmie and his sycophants think there is something to debate in regards to his fake docterate.

Those comments are not criticisms. They are hateful and they are insults for the purpose of belittling another person, not constructive criticism. Would you say otherwise? Would you really even try to defend that type of verbal abuse from a Christian? Do not tell me JW has done worse, because I have never ever defended him. Again I ask, do you not believe that the above verbatim quotations (each one copied and pasted directly from this blog) are unbecoming for a Christian, particularly when directed at a professing fellow believer? You were never commanded to love others and forgive others (70x7) that were lovable. All I have stated from the beginning was that we should cease the lambasting, and certainly not try to justify it by claiming "I'm just standing up for the truth", which does not require pejorative and insult.

I say again, I have never stated all criticism was hateful, so I believe you mistakingly put words in my mouth and interpreted by views wrongly. No problem there, as we've all blow it sometimes. I forgive you :-). You know, that really wasn't so bad!

With that, I am… Going to sleep. Peace. David.

[Roy]

@Ray,

You may be waiting for a while for that, unfortunately. Yahya peddles this type of stuff on a regular basis, as you can see from his history of posts on the internet and youtube videos.

[Ray]

@yahya,

"For those (such as Roy) who WRONGLY claim he has forged/faked his degree"

Peter and Roy have effectively straightened out your misunderstanding. I think there may have been something lost in translation.

Also, I think it's rather strange that you would take your misunderstanding, point people to your blog and then underhandedly knock christians for spreading "lies" about Dok White's education.

Btw, its very obvious that nobody here ever called whites doctorate a forgery. Like Peter said, its about accreditation, which may not mean anything to you. But to me, coming from a family of educators, I respect the institutions who sets the quality control of higher education.

Can you fix your blog post so you don't continue to spread confusion?

[Roy]

@yahya,

You’re responding to arguments that no one made. I have no doubt that Mr. White did some, if not a great deal, of work for his “doctorate.” He did not, by all accounts, however, do the same amount of work that is required for an accredited doctorate. This has been talked into the ground, largely by Mormons and Catholics who see him as being misleading that he continues to refer to himself as “Doctor” and give people the impression he did as much work as one who has an accredited doctorate did. This is, after all, part of the reason some Mormons went to CES in Washington State and took pictures of the “building” where CES is located.
I make no attempt to hide the fact that I do not recognize Mr. White as deserving to refer to himself as “doctor.” Many others, including some of the aforementioned groups, have said the same. Singling this thread out is just not being objective regarding this, particularly when you are responding to arguments that no one made.
I will say, as I’m familiar with some of your other postings, particularly about Mr. White and his associates in “Acts 17,” that it’s quite odd for you to lecture others on what is and is not proper criticism of Mr. White. Although you consider this post “correction,” you are correcting something that was not even done.

@David,

I’m not going to subscribe to the idea that all criticism of White is hateful. I’m just not, particularly when his defenders always claim so just for the sake of it. Sorry.

[peter]

Yahya,

I appreciate your desire to offer balance in your critiques. Nor am I speaking for Roy or others. Perhaps I missed it but I have not seen the comments which you describe as charging White with faking & forging his degree. I certainly have not used the language myself; nor have I noted another one doing so.

What I have consistently stated is, White & supporters wrongly project his degree from CES as an academic doctorate. It *is not*. And no academic community in the country will recognize his degree as such. Admittedly, it *is* an *earned* doctorate. He obviously had to do something to get it. And, I'd bet a week's worth of starbucks Roy & others will not dispute that White possesses an *earned* doctorate.

Even so, an *earned* doctorate is not necessarily an *academic* doctorate. Hence, it should not be projected as one.

Furthermore, while White has never concealed the fact that CES is an unaccredited institution--nor have I claimed he has--he nonetheless refuses to answer direct questions pertaining to the details of getting his degree as Gary Novak demonstrated.

For me the bottom line is this: James White is the one who places himself in this lose/lose situation by insisting on his *academic* credentials, even going so far as to argue his doctorate *is superior* to academic doctorates earned via rigorous, peer-reviewed doctoral studies in ivy league schools.

Thanks for logging on.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Yahya Snow]

Hello,

Firstly, thanks to Peter for the effort in responding in the previous thread.

I'm not a "fan" of James White and I'm not a huge fan of Christians on the internet BUT I have to sate the vitriol directed at White concerning his doctorate is beyond reasonable and is in the realm of deception - imo.

James White does HAVE a doctorate so the "Dr Pepper" comments and other jibes some folk are throwing out in their zeal to impugn the man are indeed deplorable. I'm specifically thinking of Roy.

Sadly, there are Christians who are drawing inaccurate conclusions from the scrutiny on White's qualifications.

For those (such as Roy) who WRONGLY claim he has forged/faked his degree:

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/02/muslim-tells-truth-james-whites.html

In my view, the best way to encourage these blokes to repent/apologise for the comments concerning the Mormons/Russians is to try and remain free from exaggeration concerning other issues (i.e. the man's doctorate).

The topic of discussion is that of the alleged "misogyny". So it would be wise to stick to the topic rather than having digs at the man's qualifications - digs which are unfounded.

Surely, those who do attack White's doctorate so passionately must look at my (a Muslim's) post defending the man's doctorate (he DOES have one) and recognise they are in error.

White does have a doctorate. White did make a mistake (sin) with regards to the comments on MY's wives (Rich was in error too).

I call those who have been exaggerating about White's degree to repent and apologise. Yes, in England we do spell "apologise" correctly :)

If you are genuine about reforming a bloke it is best not to exceed the limits of fair critique - you only serve to make the bloke feel alientated and victimised if you do go down that route. Obviously, such a mode of behaviour is unedifying and will not yield a fruitful response.

I encounter many fundamentalist Christians who consider Muslims to be "of the devil" so I always chuckle when I get an opportunity to correct Christians.

NOTE: I'm not calling any of you fundamentalist Christians who consider Muslims "of the devil". I just wonder what those fundy types would make of it all...

Thanks

Peace and Love

Yahya Snow

[David]

Robert,

I am not sure if you are referring to me with the "I am not a James White fan…" comment, as this is not something I stated. I actually do enjoy James White's debates, partly because, as mentioned, I enjoy debates in general. One of my favorite debaters is WLC, whom JW greatly disagrees with. I enjoy logic (my background) and like to have my views challenged. As to the point of defending JW and his actions, I don't believe I have ever done that. What I actually said was the things that were being done here seemed to be clearly driven by hate for James White. Hate is a strong word, but I think it is a fair representation of the attitude many are exuding in their comments above. The primary justification offered is, "what he has done is so much worse… I am not doing anything nearly as bad as he is". Peter offered his motivations, which I understood ("standing up to a bully, defending my people, etc."), at least in part. That does not mean that all of the above name-calling and belittling is justified. Especially with their is a "lynch mob" mentality among people going after TF. I do not know JW, TF, or any of these folks, but I do know hatred and abhorrence directed towards individuals with I see it. That's what I see and that's what I responded to with my correspondence with Peter. To give a brief random summary:

I hate hate, especially hatred towards people.
I am neither a JW supporter or opponent. I just like debates.
JW is good at debates (my estimation) but I disagree with Calvinism. In fact, I hate Calvinism.
I thought JW went too far with his exposé of EC. It appears he was correct, which has never been acknowledged, but I still think he was too relentless.
I have listened to JW's broadcast for 7-8 years, usually while working or having trouble sleeping, but never live. I'm clearly not "fan material", but I do like debates (did I mention that?).
I don't like name calling or trying to hurt other people. I don't think that much of what has been said is out of a love for truth, but rather a hatred (or at least strong dislike) of JW. I don't know anything about TF, but I don't like the "let's get him" fevered pitch I observed. I also probably would not turn in my neighbor for stealing cable.

I am sure we are all guilty at times, but I do not think that pointing to other people's actions is ever a good justification for our poor actions. Never, ever. If JW has acted wrongly and does not give me a license to act wrongly, "he started it… He hit me first… Etc.". The repeated "playing doctor" comments are pretty bad. Really bad. In fact, some of them are hateful.

You may disagree with many points I have made, but that's okay, as long as we are civil and realize we are commanded to love, relentlessly. Love James White. You are commanded to love him and I am commanded to love you, Peter, and a lot of people that are both lovely and not not lovable. This I will try to do, fail, and try again. Please join me. If I love "THE TRUTH" I will have to deal love for my brothers as well as love for by enemies, which is really my ultimate goal, as love is the fulfillment of the law. God help me, most.

Sorry for the very long rambling. I have enjoyed your thoughts. Please consider mine, without trying to find a mistake in my logic or accidental omission of fact. Thanks.

With that, I am… Going back to trying to love Jesus with all my heart, examining my motives always, and disagreeing with but never trying to hurt others. David.

[peter]

All,

I'm going to bed. Play nice.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Roy]

@David,

I have to be honest here. I'm starting to see a pattern of, “I am not a James White fan but...” It's starting to sound far too dubious.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand how someone can be so desensitized as to not see what James White does as hateful, spiteful, and vicious, but become over-sensitized to judge us all as “hating” him because we don't support what he does or his methods. Which one is it? You can't have it both ways, unless, of course, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander. If what we say is hate, but what he does is love, are we in bizarro world?

You make Peter's point about James White defenders not bothering to actually respond to what was written, but instead respond to what they want to have been written. The specific reason the word “expose” was used was because James White and his attack dogs use that term whenever they publicly slander people and make private disagreements public. Of course, they claim to be doing so for some higher call to the truth, but really it's just to get their other attack dogs involved.

Turretinfan has been slandering and insulting people for quite some time, including Peter. He does all of this, of course, anonymously, and he's enabled by James White and AOMin. The hypocrisy there is amazing. There is nothing, at all, wrong with people knowing his identity, particularly those he has repeatedly and viciously attacked. If he's doing illegal things regarding his work and how he procured documents in order to slander people, then he very well may get in trouble once he's public. But that is not our fault that he is corrupt and hides his identity, so we will not be blamed for wanting the truth to be known.

@Robert Warren,

I read your post several times, and still can only guess at what you may have meant. All I can assume is you were making some point about foreign doctors and equating them to missionaries, or something. Apparently, you are not familiar with the reason there is a USMLE.

Regarding your snipe re: evangelism, James White doesn't do evangelism. He attacks those who do, such as Josh McDowell. I sure hope you aren't arguing his rantings and insults at lost people are evangelism.

Or are you saying we should be evangelizing James White? I personally agree.

[Robert Warren]

"...doesn't give him any more credibility than a “doctor” who is forward about his going to a medical school in Jamaica or in the Amazon, then coming back to the U.S. and claiming he's a doctor."

Wow, Roy, I hope the missionaries in Jamaica and the Amazon area aren't going to have to undo this damage now.

"What examples of Christ you people are, ridiculing the ones that we should be evangelizing...Unbelievable."
Roy 2/15/11; 2/16/11

[Mary]

One point that I think needs to be made about "exposing" White's anonymous attack dog - this is the exact kind of thing James White and his minions do to anyone who ever disagrees with them. James White will call your employer, your church, your momma if he's got the number telling anyone who will listen that you need to be disciplined for daring to question the great James White.

As far as the "anger" at James White. James White has a history of being a mysognist bully. He is NEVER wrong and no matter who presents him with the evidence of his sin - even his own supporters - he will NOT apologize. He only digs in deeper and makes up more excuses and calls more names and ultimiately plays the vicitim. I would not dare to declare myself having a "righteous" anger, but anger is not a bad thing when seeing such a bully and clearly disturbed man acting in such an unChristlike manner doing harm to the cause of Christ.

[peter]

David,

Thanks. And wishing you the best...for Him...
With that, I am...
Peter

[David]

Peter,

Thank you for your reply. Is your points are well taken. I agree with much of what you said. I remember the EC debacle (which I see clearly demonstrated EC intentionally lied and fabricated stories to inflate his own image) very well. I remember thinking, "this feels like Jimmy Swaggart going after Jim Bakker". I need to be very clear that I am not saying JW is remotely similar to JS or hiding dark secrets about to be exposed. Just that the relentless vehemence seemed similar and was the first thought that popped into my mind. In Fact, I wrote JW and e-mail and told him such, although we have never had a single correspondence. I just wanted to admonish him to "be careful with your attitude here, as it looks from the outside like you are trying to take down someone that has clearly sinned. The exposé has occurred, leave it to God". I strongly disagree with Calvinism and I have always consider it a red flag when someone "arrives", particularly with theology become so important without an emphasis on prayer, answered prayer, passionate prayer, unceasing prayer. Again, I am guilty on all counts of neglect.

Your comments regarding your motives was quite helpful in understanding what you do. I think we all have compelling motives, which I'm sure JW feels are right as well. I hear what you're saying. Some of your points are really well taken and valid. I see a little better now, although I still feel some of the commenters want to hurt others ("let's find out where he works, let's expose him, let's contact his employer so he will lose his job", etc., none of which even remotely smell like Jesus, but rather the tabloid trash at the supermarket).

I greatly appreciate you taking the time to comment. I wish you well in your endeavors and pursuit of loving Jesus and loving others. Clearly a lifelong journey for us all. Note to others: let up on the name-calling and belittling comments. Not Christlike, at all. Two wrongs do not ever make any of us right.

With that, I am… Better informed. David.

[peter]

David,

Thanks for your reply which was much more meaningful I might add than your initial logon. Too many times vague, broad-brush condemnations are left here without being specific about precisely what one is complaining. I do my best never to leave anyone in any doubt the exact question I am raising about either someone's behavior or belief. I am not perfect at it by any estimation. On the other hand, for someone to challenge my assertion about what we do at SBC Tomorrow, they're going to have to present me with the goods.

Now, as to your evaluation. Yes, we are all guilty of over-the-top language so to speak. Enough said.

On the other hand, we are not all guilty of over-the-top hurtful language about minority classes, whole religious classes and/or ethnic people groups in a public forum, and when accosted about it, incorrigibly defend it, and call those accosting you dishonest liars, vile and hateful loons who're incapable of any semblance of rationality, which, by the way, is precisely James White's response. And to some of his own supporters!

I first knew about White's misogynist language from a few who only alluded to it on a thread here. Nothing substantial. Just hinted at White's language about women. However, I first was aware of his specific language from a female supporter of James White (check the link in the OP. The last paragraph is from one who supports White. She's not an enemy of his, but a friend!). Hence, I thought if one of White's supporters was taking him to the woodshed, it must be fairly harsh language. And, it was. You, David, even categorized it as "sin."

But you need to know, David, White has a track record of dismissing any and all criticism not by dealing with the criticism per se. He doesn't. He ignores the criticism. Instead, he viciously fires back against the critic. They are hateful bigots, heretics who are against the faith (Alex the Coppersmith), vile, irrational, incapable of understanding, have no life, want to be like him, jealous of his skills and abilities, dishonest, afraid to stand-up and defend their views like he does, have never read his works, never had a formal debate, ignorant, woefully lacking in thinking abilities, are psychologically imbalanced, and have massive spiritual problems. I know this because every single one of the descriptions above he has written about me personally. And, most of them in one piece!

But it's not only me. Just two posts ago, White was not only back on Ergun Caner, he's dissing Norm Geisler again. Geisler is one of the most respected apologists in the last 50 years. He's also trashed Josh McDowell, J.P. Holding and a number of other credible Christian apologists. All of them are dishonest and/or ignorant.

Not only so, White has picked apart--piece by piece--many great Southern Baptists like Jerry Vines, Adrian Rogers, and others concluding them idiots. He also has explicitly called at least one seminary dean a deceitful liar. He was let go from one of our seminaries as an adjunct professor because he could not "keep his mouth shut" in being viciously critical of others.

Even more hurtful to the faith, White routinely mocks the very people he attempts to reach. For example, Mormons, those who hold to Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, and especially Roman Catholics. Who are the apologists who argue those positions? Well, read the descriptions above. White makes very few, if any, distinction. They too are all incapable of rational discussion, dishonest, hateful, and ignorant. Imagine telling a dedicated Muslim he is ignorant of his own faith. That's a strange way to reach Muslims were I asked.

And here is the capstone:

to any and all criticism raised against James White's behavior or belief, the response is almost always the same in one form or another--"you, sir, are a liar."

Now, David, do I want to spend the rest of my days on this earth dealing with the likes of such a divisive man (Christian or unchristian for that matter) NO! I DON"T. But I will if that's what it takes to make sure James White's influence is minimized in the convention of Southern Baptists I've come to love.

Even so, if I am, in the end, perceived as a divisive man myself, or, if people come to view me as hateful for doing so, that's the price I'm willing to pay. People can think as they wish (God knows my heart and it is to Him I belong). But I'll be a dog's flea if James White is going to continually bully my people--the people who raised me spiritually, paid for my education, people who allowed me to serve them as pastor, church planter, and janitor. I refuse to back down or roll over like a whipped mongrel* just because somebody can out argue me, out debate me, is smarter than I am, has more resources than I do, has better thinking skills than I, or whatever. I ain't going to do it, brother; I ain't doin it.

Hope that helps.
With that, I am...
Peter

*pun intended

[David]

Hello Peter,

Thanks for your reply. I will be glad to deal with the actual content of the 0P, since that is what you requested. Firstly, I must admit that by nature I tend to joke a lot and have always enjoyed laughing. If I had to try to render a verdict to the case you presented I would say, "James White is clearly guilty of cutting up and getting carried away with low level humor on record. This appeared to move from a poor attempt at silliness to some comments that guys are often guilty of employing, unattractive girl jokes. I think if we have a strict code of conduct, yes, he sinned. It would not appear to be intentionally malicious or hateful, but rather comments made without thought and illustrative of the proverb, "in the multitude of words there wanteth not sin". I am not privy to the true motive, but that would be my guess. Just poor judgment and poor taste that slid downhill quickly. I would say he should clearly be scolded, "come on man, you should know better than that. That kind of talk is best reserved for joking around with the guys at a Saturday morning soccer game, or not at all, but definitely not in a public forum. You should apologize for your course jesting, without qualification". That's my assessment. Would you agree this is likely a fair assessment, and something we would all be guilty of doing at sometime (not necessarily safe topic, but improper joking around)?

I have loved Jesus for 32 years, sometimes fervently, sometimes with a dry heart without fire. I am 48 years old and I will probably not live past 60 because of a serious injury sustained at 60 years of age. Christopher Reeve without the ventilator. Because of my situation I think about the fragility of life and I wonder how to make others' lives better. I don't want to hurt people, ever. Life is too short. If I live another decade I will have 3500 days left. If you live three more decades you will only have 10,000 days left. That's just not much! Most of them are rear view mirror stuff now. I will be guilty of being foolish with my mouth at times, too many times, but I don't want to never hate anyone. Ever. I see a lot of anger here, which I interpreted as either being hateful, or at least borderline. The name-calling is no better than the distasteful joking by JW, and probably worse, as it is apparently from the heart. My friend's little boy is dying of leukemia, quickly, and I sometimes wonder why our prayers for this little boy seemed to go unanswered. Maybe I really don't have very far to look, as we all appear so far from forgiving, compassionate people that really just want to love from the heart filled with the love of God. This is just not how I want to spend my 3000 days. Is it how you want to spend your 10,000 days? I would rather go back to my Playboy reading, pot-smoking 15-year-old teenage vice than put so much effort into intentionally hurting someone else.

In closing, although I have my Masters degree in mathematics and have a modicum of intelligence, my vision is poor, I type with a voice-recognition program, and I'm certain this post is filled with grammatical errors which I cannot see. Forgive me for this also. Hopefully charity will prevail a little more frequently it all of our lives. I would imagine that I am most needful in this regard.

With that, I am… ashamed of every time I intentionally hurt another human being. God forgive me.

[peter]

David,

OK. You've expressed your shame and embarrassment for all the alleged 'name-calling' and supposed 'hate' on this thread for James White. So, how about dealing with the actual content of the OP. Did or did not White & Pierce employ misogynist language? If you do not think so, how do you interpret their words? If so, how is it hate to point such out and call for White & Pierce to make it right?

I look forward to your response.

With that, I am...
Peter

[David]

God help us all. If this is what Christianity looks like I have to wonder why anybody comes to Christ. I often listen to James White because I enjoy apologetics in general. I am not a Calvinist and I vehemently disagree with several aspects of reformed theology. Nonetheless, it seems to be clear that quite a few people here hate James White. I do not think any other word other than "hate" is a fair representation of the emotions on display here. If you believe he is in Christ, but in error, or even prideful and arrogant, the behavior here of name-calling and belittling is not reflective of a heart filled with the Holy Spirit of God. I just stumbled across this blog recently and all I can say is how different, how very different all of this is from the Christ I love who has commanded me to love. May God please forgive us all. If this is illustrative of our love for our brothers or our enemies we are indeed a miserable lot. With that, I am… Embarrassed to be a part of a church that is an embarrassment to God.

David, and ashamed.

[Roy]

@Riddick,

You also could try talking to someone that works or has worked with Hank Hanegraaff. Brian mentioned some good information about TF working there a ways back.

How many other people would have moved to cleveland to take a job, also been into computers(like TF), and be obsessed with Francis Turretin?

The bell is tolling, TF! It's tolling!

[Mary]

Roy, Jimmie's response now to anything is YEAH YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT ERGUN CANER HUH? WHAT ABOUT HIM? ERGUN CANER!

or how about

YOU JUST WANT TO BE ME LUMPY WITH YOUR OH SO GENUINE DOCTORATE - MY FAKE DOCTORATE is too better IS TOO IS TOO!

THIS IS ALL JEALOUSY of ME THE GREAT WHITE! CUZ I RIDE A BIKE LIKE LANCE ARMSTRONG! YOU'RE ALL HATERS cuz YOUR JEALOUS SEE. I KNOW YOU'RE JEALOUS CUZ I KNOW HOW SPECIAL I AM. I'M JUST LIKE ISAIAH! I AM THAT IMPORTANT!

[Roy]

I'm thinking of designing a James White/Dr. Pepper Mad libs.

I'll give a collection of insults you can use to fill in the blanks.

You know, such things as,

"You, sir, are ..."

Some possible terms are

a liar
unregenerate
synergistic bigot
scoundrel
ruffian
cad
...

I have some more, but I'm open to suggestions.

[peter]

Vlad,

I'm in my second childhood and loving it!

More seriously, thanks for the concern; however, pointing out what JW supporters refuse to do is not not grown up.

Thanks again.
With that, I am...
Peter

[Vlad]

Cmon guys. Cant we grow up? Dont be mad at James cuz his wife is a looker. No point in that. I mean, you guys DO believe in OBJECTIVE REALITY, right?

[Mary]

So a man who is supposed to be a "professional" at debates decides to try to distract from the issue of his mysogyny by screaming "Caner" And people pay money to hear this guy?

Are there any Whiteheads out there who haven't drunk so much Kool Aid that can't see through Jimmie clearly trying to change the subject? Or do you think he's getting too many people calling him out on his mysogyny and this is some sort of shiney object to hold in front of the Whiteheads to distract them from James White and all his personal issues.

"Here guys remember this? Remember when we went after Caner? Wasn't that fun? Don't pay attention to anything else, my prettys. Focus on Ergun Caner now. That's right do not listen to what Alexander the Coopersmith is saying. Remember he's a heretic against my gospel of White. And according the me the Great Dr. White or you can call me Isaiah if you like, mysogyny is not that big of a deal. So Caner, Caner, Caner. Stay focused."

[Roy]

I just read that link Peter posted.

The arrogance of Dr. Pepper, I mean, D0kt0r White, is amazing:

"Honest believers who are concerned about the integrity of apologetic ministry will not allow such falsehoods to go unchallenged, nor will we tire of calling for repentance and restoration on the part of those involved. Remember, the prophetic ministry of men like Isaiah and Jeremiah lasted for years, during which time many even of their friends tired of their message. "

Mr. White wouldn't know an honest believer if one was predestined to hit him with a clown car. The guy's entire "ministry" is based on dishonesty. He continues to be dishonest about his "d0kt0rate," the languages he supposedly knows, and continues to run interference for his anonymous attack dog Turretinfan(who will soon be known).

Oh, but it doesn't stop there. He compares himself to the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah? I think it's only a matter of time before he publicly states what many of his followers seem to believe, that he is himself God and he can make no mistake.

After all, if you don't support him, you hate God, according to he and his followers, so what else can you derive from that?

@Peter,

I think it's instructional too that Mr. White's arrogance will be his downfall. He cannot admit he's wrong or accept criticism, so the longer people like you and the few others out there publicly call him out for his actions, he will continue dedicating much of his time and energy to trying to destroy all of you. It will consume him. I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually develops a nervous twitch that we shall dub, "the Lumpkins jerk"(pun).

[Roy]

@Peter,

Thanks for standing up to the bully! White continues to prove our point that he and his followers cannot accept any disagreement with them as legitimate.

ALL disagreement must come from the deepest, darkest pits of hell. There is no justifiable reason to disagree with them, it MUST be because you are hateful, dishonest, want to kill puppies, etc.

@Riddick,
The bell is tolling for Turretinfan. The hypocrisy of white and co. is amazing, that they allow this attack dog to slander people publicly yet remain anonymous. I believe TF's true identity will be revealed soon.

@Brian,
You can email Peter from his about link on this page.

[peter]

All

Whatever you do, DON'T MISS THE UPDATE ON THIS POST. It's at the top of the page. James White has offered a crushing blow to my piece here. Take a look :^)

With that, I am...
Peter

[Riddick]

It is about an hour drive between the location of the PCA church Brian linked to above and the Squire, Sanders & Dempsey location in Ohio according to Google maps.

[Riddick]

I know the information I posted about "Turretinfan's" IP address at work with his location is in fact accurate. I also know he has tried to hide this information about Squire, Sanders & Dempsey while surfing the Internet, though I have not yet contacted anyone there. Brian also locates "Turretinfan" in Ohio. I'm inclined to believe that Brian may know his identity.

@Brian,
Contact Peter or someone else you can trust with your information. I agree with Roy. The man needs to be held publicly accountable to the same degree he has sought to hold others publicly accountable.

[Roy]

@EJ,

I have noticed, it seems that all of the whiteheads seem to like the term "ad hominem," although I'm fairly certain that few if any of them know what it means.

If you question Mr. White's faux doctorate, it's an ad hominem attack.

If you question his claims to know a language that he does not, it's an ad hominem attack.

If you contrast the bible in terms of christlike actions to Mr. White's vicious attacks and slander of all people who disagree with him, it's an ad hominem attack.

The list goes on and on. This really isn't much more sophisticated than the arguments we hear from the Obamatrons, in that all criticism is "racist."

@Brian Edwards,

Please let me know how to contact you if you'd prefer to give me the identity of Mr. TF rather than straight to Peter(but I'd be fine if you gave it straight to him). The bell is tolling, and it is tolling for Turretinfan. His reign of error has come to an end, and he will start having a name behind his insults, attacks, and slander.

[Ray]

EJ,

you will find many of their attacks on his website (I refuse to link anyone to it).

so google is your friend.

type "peter lumpkins" (or "norm geisler" or "robert sugenis" or "bob ross" or "jimmy akin" or "bart ehrman" or "gary novak" or "kirk divietro" or "kermit zarley" . et al.) AND "james white" in your search bar and throw a couple key words like "slander", "libel", "attack", "ad hominem" etc...

btw thinking of Jimmy Akin reminds me of another tasteless post of white's (in some ways much more pathological than the "ugly wives leads to heresy" one):

http://www.jimmyakin.org/2007/08/james-white-has.html

[Roy]

@Brian Edwards,

I'm not sure how to contact you? However, I don't want to speak for Peter, but, if you know the true identity of Turretinfan, seeing as TF has slandered Peter before, I'm sure you could just let Peter know. I just feel it's high time for people to know who this guy is.

For whom does the bell toll, Turretinfan? It tolls for THEE.

To the Muslims on this thread, apparently Mr. White will have an opportunity to do 6 hours of debate with a Muslim on an Islamic broadcasting network this week. I encourage you, as Mr. White has routinely claimed, and still claims, he knows Arabic, and has criticized the Arabic of others(like Ergun Caner)...

FEEL FREE to speak to him in Arabic during this debate.

[Brian Edwards]

Contact me.

[Roy]

@EJ,

How did you miss the recent 11 minute rant by James White about Peter Lumpkins the other day on DL? The audio is ON here. Peter gives a listing of a lot of the names White calls him(a synergistic bigot, for one).

One of Lumpkins' articles in the past is where Turretinfan calls him "unregenerate" which of course means he's not a Christian. White calls everyone who disagrees with him a liar. Micah Burke, as Peter said, referred to Peter as a liar, law-breaker, and God hater.

However, I'm sure Peter can provide a lot more links. But I will say, if you have been listening/reading both of those men, and say you do not ever remember them slandering or attacking people, I really have no idea what to say to you. Perhaps you can talk to jaiotu about whether it's wrong/a sin for Mr. White to have made those comments about women. He does not feel it was. By the way, that audio is on this page(apparently Katherine was not aware of that). There's also a link on this page where Rich Pierce, the right hand man of James White, repeatedly calls a Catholic a "jerk" and screams at him.

It sounds like your request could be better phrased as:

"other than the attacks and slanders by James White and Turretinfan, what are the attacks and slanders by James White and Turretinfan?"

[Roy]

@Brian Edwards,

Listen to a debate Turretinfan has on youtube, you can hear his voice and you should be able to determine if he is who you think he is. I think it's high time his name was publicly known so we can associate the attacker with a real person, and not a comic book picture.

Peter, I see what you mean. I do, to some degree, pity a lot of the JW people because I think some of them genuinely do fear for the consequences of speaking against what he does and holding him accountable. Some have also conveyed to me that JW and his group of attackers would go after, viciously, anyone in their group that spoke against what he did. They would even do this to people that have been with them for years. It's truly shocking.

This whole concept of publicly destroying people who disagree is very unchristlike. Trying to frame it in the "Expose" category for some cause of truth is not honest.

I did see the link that was posted with a chat conversation with James White, Rich Pierce, and some Catholic they had an issue with. The conduct of both of them was amazing, and sad. It truly does seem all about proving right, not saving souls, to them. They seem to be able to justify the most vicious treatment of those they claim to be wanting to preach salvation to.

BTW, I see that Mr. White twittered about his debate in London that was the subject of some controversy in this thread(his claims of Arabic knowledge, yet his obvious problem of not knowing it during the debate). He did, of course, have himself referred to as "Dr. James White" in the debate title, from that website.

Mr. White, Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, atheists, evangelicals, etc are aware of your "doctorate" issue. I really don't see why you continue to insist everyone is wrong and you are right about this. It truly hurts your credibility and makes you appear dishonest. Please consider removing the title from your name.

[EJ]

I have listened to and read a decent amount of what James White and TurretinFan have done, but by no means have I read/seen/heard it all.

I haven't followed all the comments threads or posts on related subject matter, but I would like to read a post or listen to audio where these men slander others. Perhaps I've just missed it - which is possible - but would you be able to provide me with a few links for each (James & TurretinFan) where they slander people or attack people?

Thanks.

[Mary]

""Mrs. Bonds, who has sadly allowed herself to be used by the Roman Catholics. I’ve no doubt she is a wounded soul in need of prayer and compassion, yet there is no one here who can make a claim to whatever may or may not have happened in her family home. She claims some pretty serious stuff. But whether it is true or not, none of us knows. And… further, it has little to do with the kind of person James White""

The way James White has treated this "wounded soul" who is his SISTER has everything to do with the kind of person James White is. No one needs to take anyone else's opinion on this. They simply need to do a little google searching to find exactly how the GREAT JAMES WHITE, whom you shall dare not cross, treats this "wounded soul" from his own family.

[peter lumpkins]

Roy,

Take a look at the couple of links I left for Katherine. I think you'll discover a bit of background. Unfortunately, she kinda has a habit of garbling up who actually writes what.

I have to say, JW supporters may be worst I've ever experienced in actually dealing with written communication. Inevitably, so many of them botch words, confuse who writes what, draw unnecessary implications, switch definitions, and SHOUT! AT! YOU! WHEN! THEY! HAVE! A! WEAK! POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All, of course, in the line of duty--protect James White's position and behavior from any criticism whatsoever at all costs.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Brian Edwards]

I am 95% certain that I know who TurretinFan is. He worked for Hank Hanegraaff as a researcher/computer guru during his graduate studies and then moved to Ohio to accept a job offer. We used to joke that he went to work for some secret government agency. He was flirting with reformed theology when I knew him and was obsessed with Francis Turretin; this was maybe 15 years ago?

[peter lumpkins]

A few things.  First, last time you logged on and defended your honorable mentor, James White, you left the impression I was a deliberate deceiver. Apparently nothing has changed.  Hence, I’ll make this quickly as I can.  I have no interest in exchanging with someone who has his or her mind made up like that—too much waste.

Second, as before, your comment in so thoroughly garbled I have little enthusiasm to unravel it.  For example, you listed the “trophy wife” metaphor as if it came from me.  It did not. Rather it came from a JW supporter. Furthermore, I don’t see anything in your comment resembling what I actually wrote. Just emotionally-driven language. Perhaps you learned this strategy from your teacher, “Dr” White?  I don’t know; it’s hard to tell.

Third, of course we’re all hateful here.  The reason?  Why we dared raise a question of your mentor’s beliefs and methods.  That’s it.

Finally, you did make one knock-out assertion: 

“I don’t know whether James White and/or Rich Pierce made the remarks claimed by you. I will give you the benefit and accept it is true. They should repent and apologize.”

Why, thank you.  Now the only question is, did they make the remarks claimed by me? Why not ask them if my claim is true or false?  And demand they repent & apologize or you’ll shut off support? The thing is, Katherine, if you and other supporters would privately hold JW accountable for his actions, no one would need to publicly do so.

Now, if you comment again, here is the stipulation: a) you must be specific and clear.  No mixing up a comment into an unreadable glop of vague charges; b) stick to the agenda.  You rightly suggested too many comments veered from the subject of the post.  So, answer the question rather than make people on this thread into the ‘bad guys’

Hope this helps.

With that, I am…

Peter

[Roy]

@Ray,

Katherine actually either skipped over the fact, or was intentionally dishonest, about the "trophy wife" comment. No one here called her that. That was a quotation from Mary Jo Sharp, a friend and associate of Mr. White, who is referenced on AOMin's page as one of their apologists(she's in the picture with the rest of them, all the way on the right).

Katherine, I am asking you to apologize for claiming we said that when we clearly did not. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't bother taking the time to actually read the original post and made this mistake accidentally.

[Brian Edwards]

You should note that turretin.kgb.ru is not a resolvable subdomain. Neither is kgb.ru. It is therefore impossible to operate a proxy from that address. You should note that turretin.kgb.ru is not resolvable and neither is kgb.ru. Proxies don't let you browse the web from any IP address or domain name you want. A proxy is a computer that has to exist on the other end. You get the IP address and subdomain of the proxy server/computer.

Either turretinfan is someone with NOC privileges in a major data-center or knows someone with NOC privileges for him to be able to spoof those addresses. He could be committing a federal crime.

[Roy]

@Brian Edwards,

I could be wrong about Turretinfan living in Phoenix. Perhaps he does live in Cleveland, Ohio as originally thought. Do you know his real name? I think it should be known so people can know the identity of this person who keeps attacking them from the shadows.

@Jonathan Dupree,
If you know Turretinfan's true identity, please post it. I think sunlight is the best disinfectant. We should know the identity of this person.

@Katherine,

Your post truly, truly blows my mind. You have completely been sucked into the bizarre world of James White.

The “Trophy Wife” comment you mentioned was not said by ANYONE here, but was said by White's associate and friend, who is in his “apologetic” picture with him, Mary Jo Sharp. You need to apologize to people here for the allegation that we are saying such things, when it seems you either didn't bother reading the original post correctly or are intentionally being dishonest. Not to mention, Ms. Sharp did this to make a point that it was wrong for Mr. White and Mr. Pierce to make fun of women's looks.

Turretinfan has repeatedly attacked, slandered, and maligned people, yet remains anonymous. Is this the Christian thing to do? There is absolutely nothing wrong, at all, with people knowing the true identity of Mr. White's attack dog. Mr. White often talks about the law, and Turretinfan is apparently a lawyer. Surely they are both aware that an amendment to the constitution allows for us to confront those who are testifying and saying things against us, so we can know who they are.

We obviously feel, as a society, that this is so important that we have it as part of our constitution. People should know who Turretinfan is because he has repeatedly personally attacked others yet hid behind anonymity. To claim that it's a personal attack on him for people, particularly those he has attacked, for knowing the true identity of the person attacking him is ridiculous.

You have to understand it's hard for us to take you seriously when you make allegations of us being insulting, attacking, and mean-spirited, when you defend James White and Turretinfan. That's all they DO. They regularly call people they don't agree with unregenerate, liars, or in Peter's case, a heretic(Alexander the Coppersmith rejected the teachings of Paul).

So let me make sure I understand the totality of your argument:

1. Any questions of Mr. White's claims that he has a doctorate are hateful/nasty/personal(ad hominem is apparently a term he likes to use.) Despite, of course, the fact that he constantly berates the education and intelligence of others.
2. Pointing out that Mr. White is not telling the truth about his language skills, although he criticizes the language skills of others, is hateful/nasty/personal.
3. Pointing out that it is wrong for Mr. White and Mr. Pierce to make sexist and misogynistic remarks is hateful/nasty/personal.
4. Calling White and Pierce to stop viciously slandering and attacking people is hateful/nasty/personal.
5. Letting people know the true identity of Turretinfan, who regularly slanders and attacks people on behalf of James White and who disagree with him is hateful/nasty/personal.

This is truly nothing but shooting the messenger, and it won't fly. We understand you probably risk a lot, as a devotee of White, if you dare to question the things he does, but that's not the position we're in. Someone has to stand up to this bully. For you to claim you don't know if James White & Rich Pierce made the remarks “claimed by us” when there's an audio clip of them doing this on THIS page is truly, truly amazing. You still are not sure if they've said it after you can hear them say it. Wow.

You could have truly summarized your comment in an emotional plea, “don't judge!” and it would have been just as substantive. I'm really sorry you have been sucked in like this. I honestly was only recently aware of the hold James White has over people.

@Turretinfan,
It seems obvious your true identity is going to be revealed soon. I think it may be best for you to just come clean and tell us who you are.

[Ray]

Katherine,

"I don’t know whether James White and/or Rich Pierce made the remarks claimed by you."

you shouldn't have commented until you figured this out for yourself, not passive-aggressively taking Peter's word for it.

in fact you were very thorough with everything else I'm surprised you didn't click the link and hear the audio.

as to the rest of your criticism;

"Let a righteous man strike me--it is a kindness; let him rebuke me--it is oil on my head. My head will not refuse it. Yet my prayer is ever against the deeds of evildoers" ps 141:5

I see brothers and sisters (from both reformed and moderate positions) holding white and his circle accountable.

[Katherine]

Wow. I cannot believe what I'm reading. Although this post will likely never be seen, that's perfectly fine with me. It will have other useful purposes.

So Peter, exactly what was missing in your life that you started yet another assault upon James White? I thought you had wisely put your rage aside since the whole Caner fiasco. But I was wrong. Out of the blue (or perhaps it was just a slow news day), we have three posts that can only be seen as an all-out attack upon a Christian brother.

I have watched Christians attacking this man with what can only be described as hateful mean-spiritedness. It seems nothing is too low or off-limits. I’ve seen comments about his sister, Mrs. Bonds, who has sadly allowed herself to be used by the Roman Catholics. I’ve no doubt she is a wounded soul in need of prayer and compassion, yet there is no one here who can make a claim to whatever may or may not have happened in her family home. She claims some pretty serious stuff. But whether it is true or not, none of us knows. And… further, it has little to do with the kind of person James White is. I’ve not seen anyone claim to have a doctorate in psychiatry here and even if there was someone with those credentials, they simply do not have any hard evidence that anything Mrs. Bonds may have said has anything at all to do with James White.

Then we move on to attacking James White’s wife… crudely calling her a “trophy wife”. All in an effort to claim he is a misogynist! It’s clear to me that anyone who would make such remarks, clearly has a problem with women and should maybe check themselves before they embark on calling a woman a trophy wife.

Just to make sure the nastiness is complete; you are now going after TurretinFan. Why? Is it now the role of loving Christians to try to cause a man to lose his job? What motivates such vitriol? Of course, I don’t really have to ask the question about jobs. You folks have proven that nothing is off the table when it comes to disagreement.
I don’t know whether James White and/or Rich Pierce made the remarks claimed by you. I will give you the benefit and accept it is true. They should repent and apologize. What should you do?
I’m sick at heart that people who call themselves children of God, my brothers and sisters, would behave in such a disgusting manner. Where is the fruit of the spirit in these exchanges?

All over the world Christianity is under assault. It’s now crystal clear to me why. We are not loving, kind, gentle, long-suffering, faithful or self-controlled. And we evidently don’t believe in scripture either. “Brothers if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness”. I didn’t see any gentleness here. Where is it?
I remember when you were so angry that people were attacking Ergun Caner and you were concerned for his family, yet here on your own blog, which you heavily censor, you allow people to drag James White’s family and friends through infantile name-calling and even trying to get someone fired from their employment.

I’m appalled. I always knew you had a problem with James White, but I NEVER believed you would stoop this low.

If I didn’t believe that you were a Christian, I could have never of recognized it from the material you put out on the internet. You have yet again, shown unbelievers just how full of hate many Christians are. So much for the Great Commission.

In His Grace,

Katherine

[Brian Edwards]

"Turretinfan" attends a PCA church in Cleveland, Ohio as well... http://www.pca-cleveland.org/ and is a deacon there.

[Jonathan Dupree]

@ Riddick there was some very personal information that came up about Ergun Caner last February-May...

Some of that information about Caner's past could have only came about by people who had contacts with law enforcement or people who may have used their profession in an unprofessional manner.

If what Riddick is saying is true this is very serious. If turretinfan is who I believe he is than he may be in serious trouble with the law if he has used his profession beyond the scope and boundaries of the legal limits.

Very serious stuff indeed! White indeed has friends in high places who are willing to do low things...

[Jonathan Dupree]

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Of course he knows Arabic @ Muslim. I mean he's "doctor" white didn't you know? I mean he uses a mac book pro! He has his own radio program! He flies to Australia, and England from time to time! He uses an I-PAD!

He has participated in over 108 debates! He has called out everyone under the sun for their inconsistencies, irregularities, God hating, vengeful, sinful, and downright awful ways!

Who are you to question the man when he says he knows Arabic. I know the words Algebra, Coffee, and Giraffe so I too know Arabic!

Of course White knows Arabic (what kind of Christian Apologist who is trying to specialize in Islamic studies doesn't know Arabic....) wink wink nudge nudge..

[Roy]

@Riddick,

Sorry for the multiple posts:

It may be one of these employees at their Phoenix branch:

http://www.ssd.com/Professionals/List.aspx?Offices=205

[Roy]

@Riddick,

I think Turretinfan may work for that LLP but live in Phoenix.

http://mobile.prnewstoday.com/release.htm?cat=publishing-information-services&dat=20080616&rl=CLM11516062008-1

Shows that they have an office in Phoenix. It's possible his internet is going through to their main office in Cleveland.

Turretinfan, you can bet your britches we're going to find out who you are and, as James White says, "expose" you. I'm certainly tirred of seeing your slander all over the internet without a real name attached so that you can be held accountable. When I do find out your real name, I'm going to simply post it publicly so that all the people you have slandered in the past will know exactly who you are and you can be publicly held accountable for your sin.

[Roy]

@Riddick,
What makes you think he works there? I read your old post about it. Did you ever talk to any of the lawyers there to find out who it is? I think it'd be nice to publicly post who this guy is, so he can be held accountable for his slander and wicked behavior.

If you have to email the lawyers there, you can tell them one of their employees is slandering people and pushing religious dogma on company time. I think that would probably not go over well.

@Muslim,
Yes, look at James White's facebook. He publicly claims to know Arabic, and even makes videos criticizing the Arabic of others. He also tells his whiteheads that he knows Arabic. You know, it's the whole, speak something into existence thing. I didn't know White was name it, claim it.

[Muslim]

Does it really say on his facebook-page that he knows Arabic? It became painfully obvious in his most recent debate in London with Bassam Zawadi that he doesn't know Arabic, so much so that he even confused his opponent for a second due to his incompetence when trying to use Arabic words in the cross examination period. If he really goes around claiming that he knows Arabic, that is really sad.

[Riddick]

"Turretinfan" is not quite as anonymous as he thinks. We know that he works at Squire, Sanders & Dempsey L.L.P. in Cleveland, Ohio (4900 Key Tower 127 Public Square Cleveland, OH. 44144-1304: Telephone = 216.479.8500 Fax = 216.479.8780); and that he sometimes uses the IP address 206.18.111.5.

[Samuel F.]

Mr. Roy,

Turretinfan is listed with the hostname of

turretin.kgb.ru

on their chat server. That means hes using a proxy to hide his true identity in terms of where he is chatting from.

[Mary]

"" They can lose friends, job and ministry opportunities, and even be considered unregenerate and not saved.""

They need to flee as far away as possible and flee as quickly as possible. This is part of the classic definition of a cult and if they are in congregations or communities of "christians" who act like this they need to get out. This is not the body of Christ and has nothing to do with anything biblical for people to be treated this way. This is truly spiritual abuse and has nothing to do with Christ. If there are people who have evidence that James White behaves in this manner then they need to come forward and expose him so he can stop abusing his followers.

[Roy]

To all,

I did want to mention one glaring note of hypocrisy with Mr. White and Mr. Pierce. I read that earlier link when they viciously attacked that Catholic guy for an issue they had with him, with Rich Pierce calling the guy names and screaming at him. High quality Christian behavior, no doubt.

But what I wanted to mention is that they justify slandering people online under the guise of "exposing them" for "truth" or something. They have a habit of posting emails, or parts of emails, that people sent to them privately.

The problem with all of this, among other things, is one of White's chief attack dogs, "Turretinfan," continues to slander people, attack people, and generally act unchristlike. Yet, he is able to remain anonymous, and AOMin is complicit in all of this.

So, this guy, turretin@hotmail.com, is able to anonymously attack anyone and everyone that disagrees with Mr. White, yet he's allowed to remain anonymous. As we can see, from Mr. White's perspective, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander. Everyone who questions Mr. White must be publicly and viciously maligned, attacked, etc and Mr. White sends his attack dogs on them to destroy their reputation, but he allows one of those attack dogs to remain anonymous, post on his website, etc.

The hypocrisy here is amazing.

[Roy]

@Mike,

I appreciate your objectivity here. You have to understand what people like Jaiotu and DBH face if they dare to be reasonable and honest with what is going on with Mr. White.

I know it's tempting to look at jaitou's post right there and allow your jaw to drop. After all, you have a supporter of James White refusing to call him to ask for the hateful and vicious things that he does, but instead, using hyperbole and other nonsense in order to make those who NOTICE what Mr. White does to be far worse than Mr. White could ever be. This is the old “shoot the messenger” approach. You know, don't blame the guy doing the stuff, blame the people who see him doing it.

I have a lot of friends that work with the James White crowd, and belong in the James White crowd, and I have been told about the consequences they face if they ever dare to go against Mr. White and not follow his latest crusade against this or that person. They can lose friends, job and ministry opportunities, and even be considered unregenerate and not saved.

That being said, I can understand the fear and trepidation that jaiotu and DBH have regarding dealing with Mr. White. It's much easier for them to blame the people pointing things out than actually blame James White for DOING these things. The objective observer would look at jaiotu's comments and think he was being intentionally dishonest in using crass hyperbole(burning at the stake, seriously?) for people who don't support White, while ignoring the fact that you don't need to use hyperbole or exaggeration to show the extreme hatred, anger, and viciousness of White... you can just quote him. But as I said, you have to realize, if they allowed themselves to be open and honest about Mr. White, they face far more repercussions than if they just go after his critics and people who objectively question what he does.

It's like Animal Farm. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. Look at the viciousness in the previous post where Mr. White and Mr. Pierce started attacking that Catholic guy. It's all about winning the argument to these people and shoving their opponent's face into the ground. Salvation is a secondary issue. The primary issue is being right.

[Ray]

jaiotu,

"at the same time refusing to aknowledge that he could ever do anything right."

Peter has said that White can be an effective and efficient debater, it's when the formal atmosphere disappears that he stumbles and needs Ephesians 4:29, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 7:3-5, James 3 to be brought to his attention.

The problem seems to be that he is surrounded by enablers. I've seen this countless times with fundamentalists (some here have called it 'cultlike').

as much as I don't agree with much of Driscoll's philosophy and methodology he has a very good message about 'fundamentalism'. he warns the church to be wary if you have a teacher in your life that [in your mind] can do no wrong.

"where White's comments in this particular instance can conclusively be categorized as sin"

this is "rotten" talk I dont understand how you can't see this.

one could delve further into white's logic and begin to make a case for how flippantly he connects women's looks to heresy. who could make light of heresy while degrading women's worth (btw both issues grieve God's heart)?.
someone disconnected from the reality of his words (read james 3).

in the larger picture every person that white slanders on the internet he needs to reconcile with. he has all the power to 'agree to disagree' but he constantly takes the low road.

[Mary]

I'm still marveling over this idea that Jimmie and his sycophants think there is something to debate in regards to his fake docterate. It is precisely because of frauds like Jiimmie that we have to have accreditation boards and standards. There are standards as to what constitutes genuine PHd's precisely because there are people like Jimmie who think all they have to do is declare themselves a doctor. It's precisely because of people like Jimmie who thinks he doesn't have to follow the rules like everyone else because he is just so darn "special" It's because there are frauds like Jimmie who want to commit frauds against people by claiming "trust me I'm a doctor" There's nothing to debate. There's nothing his "critics" need to address with Jimmie. It doesn't matter why Jimmie took the path he did. The path he took led directly to a fake doctorate. Dems the facts. It's exactly because of people like Jimmie that there are standards put in place so we don't need to have discussions about what constitutes real doctorates. Jimmie doesn't like the rules since he didn't make them and he and his sycophants think the rules don't apply to them. He's a fraud that the accreditation process was established to expose and protect against.

[Roy]

@jaiotu,

Are you intentionally being dishonest here? It's hard to see that you could be doing much else. You sit and argue about the fact that what Mr. White did is not even a sin, and those, such as us, who see it as such are wanting to burn him at the stake?

You are making my point. You guys truly believe that any criticism or rejection of James White's tactics is not acceptable. In fact, anyone who observes or notices what he is doing is doing just as bad as he is, if not worse. You are not being cordial, you are trying to hide your near cultish defense of Mr. White and everything he does behind smooth talk, and doing the same diversionary nonsense that Mr. White does.

The idea that people trying to hold White accountable is akin to wanting to burn him at the stake is ridiculous, particularly when it's Mr. White that believes such things are historically acceptable(i.e. Servatus). The fact that you would turn that around and say those who disagree with him want to burn him at the stake is just being hysterical and dishonest.

As I said to DBH, that pig don't fly. I do not believe you are being genuine or sincere at all. You are not, at all, offering just another point of view. You are saying any point of view other than what the followers of White has is hateful, bigoted, unbiblical, and akin to wanting to burn the guy alive. Ridiculous.

We're not going to let him get away with this anymore, period.

[Mike]

I'm not a Christian, but I do admire the Christians here who are holding James White accountable. I can't believe that White's followers on here refuse to admit that he said something wrong because the bible doesn't clearly say that it's wrong. Continuing the theme of a previous poster, if I were to say to someone, "I look forward to dancing on the grave of your dead mom!" would that not be wrong because the Bible doesn't say, "thou shall not tell another that they will dance on the grave of their dead mom"? Come on. Get a clue, guys. You guys criticize Catholics for their adherence to the pope. You do the same thing with James White. He is your pope.

[jaiotu]

Peter,
I don't see myself engaging in tit for tat.
What I see here is a bunch of people engaging in the exact same kind of tactics that they blame James White's supporters of. Claiming that the "Whiteheads" will never admit that White does any wrong while at the same time refusing to aknowledge that he could ever do anything right.
I've been cordial in simply trying to offer another point of view.
I get the point. Since I'm not joining the crowd calling for White to be "burned at the stake," I'm not welcome here. It's your blog.

May God richly bless you and your readers.

With that, I am...
Gone.

[Geoff]

I googled one of the names here, Rich Pierce, and found the following:

http://www.a2z.org/acts/articles/jw_plagiarism_white_pierce.htm

I'm a bit shocked at some of the quotes here:

James White (NA27) and Rich Pierce (aomin)

[09:38] You have no idea how utterly petty you look with this kind of stupidity.
[09:39] Too late, Scott. I'm posting your accusation on OUR website so that people can see the kind of activities you people engage in.
[09:39] and YOU, had to be a JERK about it and SLANDER Dr. White....just so you could

[09:40] HE NEVER RECEIEVED A PAYCHECK
[09:40] THAT IS WORKING YOU JERKL

[09:41] YOU ARE A JERK! PLAIN AND SIMPLE AND SO IS MR. BROWN AND I INTEND TO INFORM HIM OF IT!

[09:44] SIR! AND YES, IT TEND TO GET A GOOD BIT MORE EMOTIONAL THAN JAMES DOES. CAUSE I DON'T LIKE JERKS, WHO COULD CARE LESS ABOUT TRUTH....BTW HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT WORKING FOR THE ENQUIRER? YOU WOULD DO WELL THERE!
[09:44] *** Parts: aomin (~Rich_Pier@cpe-24-221-125-165.az.sprintbbd.net)

[Roy]

Regarding Mr. White's "doctorate"

http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31214&sid=392530cdef6a21e1f93f269f0e66d2c7

"His "Ph.D" is bogus... (there's evidence on the internet which is pretty clear cut, but I don't have time to track it down)..."

That's about 6 years ago on some Catholic forum. Does anyone see why this is a problem? Many people have a difficult time listening to his message because they already see him as lacking credibility because of his dishonesty regarding his "doctorate."

Why, why, WHY does he continue to try to convince everyone that he has a doctorate? It isn't just Catholics that are aware of this, it is Mormons, Muslims, and even other believers.

Doesn't he realize that he's coming across as dishonest and he hurts the cause he claims to support? Every time one of these televangelists goes down in flames, many associate them with Christians living Biblical lives. It hurts the entire body.

Does Mr. White not realize that he is hurting the name of Christ and Christians by continuing to be so dishonest about his education? And what's worse, he claims it is in fact "persecution" for his pursuit of Christ. Really? Lying for Christ?

Please, James "Benny Hinn" White, stop digging! You're already in a deep enough hole!

I really think his followers need to have an intervention with him.

[Roy]

Regarding Mr. White's "doctorate"

http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31214&sid=392530cdef6a21e1f93f269f0e66d2c7

"His "Ph.D" is bogus... (there's evidence on the internet which is pretty clear cut, but I don't have time to track it down)..."

That's about 6 years ago on some Catholic forum. Does anyone see why this is a problem? Many people have a difficult time listening to his message because they already see him as lacking credibility because of his dishonesty regarding his "doctorate."

Why, why, WHY does he continue to try to convince everyone that he has a doctorate? It isn't just Catholics that are aware of this, it is Mormons, Muslims, and even other believers.

Doesn't he realize that he's coming across as dishonest and he hurts the cause he claims to support? Every time one of these televangelists goes down in flames, many associate them with Christians living Biblical lives. It hurts the entire body.

Does Mr. White not realize that he is hurting the name of Christ and Christians by continuing to be so dishonest about his education? And what's worse, he claims it is in fact "persecution" for his pursuit of Christ. Really? Lying for Christ?

Please, James "Benny Hinn" White, stop digging! You're already in a deep enough hole!

I really think his followers need to have an intervention with him.

[Roy]

@Johnnie,

Your response reveals two things:

1. You don't know what ad hominem means.
2. You are reciting your talking points well.

I'm sure Mr. White will give you a cookie, or a bozo button, for at least getting half of that right.

What you are saying is that if a university, or any educational institution, or place of employment, requires standards to show education, if they inquire about such things, they are committing ad hominem attacks.

In fact, let's play this game. I hereby bestow a medical degree on myself. After all, I'm a human being, so I know about the body, and I have researched lots of things on the internet. I think I shall go to a nearby hospital, apply for a job, and when they ask me about the degree I made up, I shall say, in true James White fashion,

“You, sir, are attacking me ad hominem!”

And maybe top it off with a,

“You, sir, are a liar!”

@jaiotu

Is it a sin for me to call someone's mother a whore? How about calling someone's sister a fat cow? Maybe, as DBH seems to believe, we can debate even as to whether or not it's even wrong(or maybe that's only if James White does it).

The Bible defines sin as many things. It is certainly not restricted to the 10 Commandments. But, in fact, when Jesus summarized the 10 Commandments into two, the second being loving your neighbor as yourself(Matthew 22:39). It is pure, unadulterated hatred, what James White and Rich Pierce did. They are insulting women in the most personal and hurtful way, as Mary will tell you, and really, any woman will tell you.

Might want to jump off the James White bandwagon now before it crashes in the ravine. It's only a matter of time.
http://bible.cc/proverbs/16-18.htm

[peter]

jaiotu

Look. You've already demonstrated your knack for continuing to argue a failed point on the ridiculous assertion with me over the literary usage of "crawled away like a whipped mongrel." Now, you attempt to suggest unless someone (Roy) can show an explicit biblical injunction prohibiting White's (& Pierce's) exact language, then his (their) insulting language cannot be demonstrated as liable to moral guilt which is quite absurd.

I suggest this: if all you're wanting to do is tit/tat, jaiotu, you really need to find another venue to do so. I'm speaking only for myself but personally I am in no mood to walk you through step-by-step on how it is not necessary to have explicit biblical injunctions stated about a particular moral matter before one may legitimately judge the behavior morally unacceptable. Please.

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter]

Mary,

You are most welcome.

With that, I am...
Peter

[jaiotu]

Ray,
I am most certain that James White sins, has sinned, and will continue to sin. If I wanted to take the time, I'm sure I could even find an example where he has done so in public.
And if you can show me clearly, from scripture, where White's comments in this particular instance can conclusively be categorized as sin, then I would be forced to recognize it as so.
What you or I might find offensive is not what defines sin. God's Word does.
I'm not defending White by pointing out that what he said does not meet the Biblical definition of sin. I'm pointing out that it's the Bible that sets that standard, not culture.

[peter]

Johnnie,

Well, you should have learned that there are at least a few people who are not intimidated by James White and his destruction team of minions. If James White wants to debate the issue about whether or not his words concerning women were biblically appropriate or not, he knows how to find my site.

Now, unless you have a legitimate contribution or a real question, please refrain from hurling barbs and walking away.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Mary]

Peter and Roy, thank you for your responses to DBH.

As a woman living in this world, as a mother raising a daughter living in this world I just cannot believe anybody who claims the name of Christ could think that in a world where women are bombarded daily, hourly, with messages that the only thing that matters is how a woman looks. Measure up to some Hollywood standard or have plastic surgery. For anyone to just think it is possible to gloss over someone who claims to be an "Elder" a "Christian Apologist" oh he's a "Doctor" (not by all acceptable standards but some new-fangled White idea that HE get's to set standards everyone else should follow) for anyone to think that objectifying and belittling women based on their looks is just beyond the pale. Words escape as to what levels some are willing to stoop to defend the cult. And it is a cult that would defend at any cost something as utterly undefensible as the misogyny against women. And for anyone who doesn't believe this rises to the level of misogyny all you have to do is a little internet research to see how White publicaly treated his own sister when she dared to step out of line. UN. BE. LIEV. ABLE.

[Johnnie]

The only thing that I have learned from this blog is that if you can't refute a persons biblical arguments, you must engage in straw man and ad hominem attacks against them and their position.

[Ray]

David B. Hewitt,

I work in media. I've traveled the world. I hardly call myself an "international" media producer. anyone who uses "international" anymore is pretentious. the world wide web has changed everything. everyone is "international" or "global". "the dividing line" needs to get over itself.

while the rest of your list of grievances is rather weak too (except about the "moron" comment), the latter half of your post is very eloquent and convicting (the parts with scripture).

Now I would like you to please copy and paste that into an email and send it directly to your friend Doktor White. Maybe he will listen to you.

[Roy]

Peter,

I had read that, which is why I brought up the term. I'm sorry they said that to you.

You know, I'm reminded of a current political reality that has a parallel to all of this. Much has been made of anyone who criticizes Obama as having a personal problem, such as they are a racist, hate-monger, bigot, etc. In other words, there is no good reason to criticize, so any criticism must be based on bad ones.

A guy on TV a year or so ago mentioned this and said something to the effect of, "you have to understand that many of his supporters consider their position and behavior the only moral and right one, so if you disagree with them, it can be for NO good reason. It must be for a bad one. They cannot intellectually allow themselves to dignify the possibility that you say and believe what you do in good faith.”

I think this is what we find ourselves in regarding James White and his cult of followers. As they are the only ones with the right theology and the right type of ministry, they are justified in ignoring the parts of the Bible that they deem “inconvenient” to how they want to act(which is ironic, as Mr. White has, on AOmin's site that “The Gospel is Ours to Proclaim, Not to Edit”). If you mention anything they do or say that seems to be inconsistent with the Bible or Christianity, you are obviously jealous, a liar, or in league with the devil. You MUST have an ulterior motive. Because, of course, the only moral and right position is to support them.

I mean, you even have jaiotu here trying to argue, “well, it was wrong, but not a sin.” I'm not sure they can even see this guy as capable of committing sin. It truly is bizarre.

I must stress again that I do not believe all Calvinists are like this. However, the hyper-calvinists that James White and his followers consist of tend to be this way.

[peter]

David,

BTW, what was said about "Lumpy" in chat channel today? Does he need a heads-up on anything?

With that, I am...
Peter

[peter]

Roy,

Interestingly, you brought up "God-hater." Last year, one of James White's right-hand men, Micah Burke, put up a blog post entitled: "Peter Lumpkins: Liar, Lawbreaker, and God-hater." Pretty cool, ah?

With that, I am...
Peter

[Roy]

@DBH,

I could respond to what you wrote there point by point, particularly mentioning that just the other day, I referred to an associate of Mr. White who called someone here a "moron." Of course, this seemed to escape your criticism.

But we can nutshell DBH's response. Mr. White shall not be criticized, and anyone who does, is being unchristlike. Now, DBH took a lot of words to say that, and the objective observer would wonder why a majority of that was not in fact directed at his friend Mr. White, but that is simply not to be. DBH would rather say in hundreds of words what could be said in a few... "all criticism of Mr. White is invalid, and those who do are being unchristlike, and according to other White followers, probably unregenerate as well."

Sorry DBH, that pig don't fly. But, as you do claim to be his friend, it may be time for you to take him to task for making a fool of himself and acting vicious and hateful to anyone who disagrees with him. Of course, that would involve you actually admitting he has flaws, which could very well get you excommunicated. We see that he spent 11 minutes on his radio program, that you likely contribute to, attacking Mr. Lumpkins. Quite a ministry he has there. Of course, he may do that to you if you ever dare to cross him, so I can sympathize with your fear.

And just so you know, I have prayed, and do pray, for him. I will continue to do so. To argue that all criticism and responses of him are invalid unless we do it secretly through prayer is ridiculously hypocritical considering he makes public every grievance he has with anyone.

@johnnie,
I see you are content with dishonesty. The reasons Mr. White has not earned or proven his title have been brought up repeatedly by those who have REAL doctorates, and those in other communities who see this as a reason to think he has no credibility. He is MISLEADING people when he says he has a doctorate. Even if Mr. Fallwell or Mr. Hamm did it, that would not justify Mr. White doing it. I don't know what is with you guys and bringing up unverifiable hypotheticals to prove your point.

This issue is NOT going away. It will continue to be an asterisk next to his name(probably right near the letters "Dr.") as long as he continues to play this silly game. Mr. White may be considered godlike(or perhaps God, it seems, as anyone who disagrees with him is apparently going against God and a God-hater) to his followers, but his inability to see this as other people see it is going to continue cause people not to respect him. You claim to be his friend, but you are no different than the townspeople in "the Emporer has no Clothes." At some point, it takes someone who's willing to be honest and obvious to say, "hey, this guy really is not a Doctor." Of course, if it's anyone close to him, they'd probably be burned like Servatus by his followers, particularly Mr. Turretin "Repent!" Fan.

To claim that holding standards that nearly every university on the planet seems to hold is "irrational" just shows your cultlike dedication to this guy. It's really quite sad.

[peter]

David,

You write, "Let's say for a moment that I were to grant that Dr. White's comments on the DL regarding Brigham Young's wives were not appropriate, just for the sake of argument." A few things, David.

First,forget "for argument's sake." Were White & Pierce's words concerning women appropriate or inappropriate? Which David? Which? You "debated" whether or not to log on. Well, you logged on. Now tell us plainly. For until you're ready to make a judgment call about White & Pierce's words, you have no business coming here and making judgments about any words on this thread.

Second, your entry into this thread reflects perfectly the reason why so many dub guys like you "Whiteheads.' No matter the position James White embraces or the behavior he pursues, he is defended. His views are never questioned and his behavior is hardly questioned. Now all JW supporters do not fit that mold. Eric doesn't. Nor does the lady whom I quoted in the OP. But you, David, do.

Third, to log on here and attempt to make the concern I've raised into an absence of holiness on my (our) part rather than a problem JW possesses remains classic JW defense--raise a diversionary stink about us and take the spotlight off JW. The real problem, according to you is, we didn't pray.

Sorry. It's not going to work. Either make a judgment about White & Pierce's words or expect to be ignored on this thread.

Finally, unless you've got a direct question on the content of this post, please refrain from leaving cryptic remarks about the "author" of this post. Nor will I go over with you yet again the details why I identify the theology of JW as Hyper-Calvinistic, David. Nothing will be accomplished. So please drop it.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Geoff]

I don't think anyone would fault Mr. White for electing to not get a real doctorate so that he can spend more time with his family, parents, and such things. The problem is, if that's the choice he made, he should not be claiming to have attained a doctorate.
If a woman can't go to nursing school because she doesn't have the money or no one will watch the kids, we understand that. But that doesn't mean she can then claim to have done so and everyone should accept this out of pity and compassion.

[Johnnie]

Actually, Roy, he is a Doctor. I am sure you would have refered to the late Dr. Jerry Falwell, and Dr. Ken Hamm(answersingenesis.com) as such. Though, neither of them did or have earned their doctorates. James White has earned his doctorate in a school that, though not accredited, has a strong track record and several people who would testify to its worthiness. Not only has he earned his doctorate, he has also proven it. I am sure you know he has written several books and has debated some of the top names in the apologetic world. Jerry Falwell may have proven to be a Dr. but he didn't earn it. The same is true with Ken Hamm. You use almost the same argumentation against James White as learned atheists do against Ken Hamm. Most of them refuse to debate him because he doesn't have a real doctorate. He does have an extensive background in science and apologetics but that doesn't make him good enough for these studied atheists(in their minds). You are applying the same irrational argumentation against a man who has both earned and proven his doctorate. You may not like Dr. White and that is fine, but no matter what you say he has earned and proven his title.

[craig Daliessio]

Jonnie...I'd rather play him one on one in a nice game of hockey. Or MMA. James White embodies true cult behavior. How is that Kool-aid, by the way?

[jaiotu]

I've made no bones about it... I have found, and still find, James White's ministry to be extremely helpful. Yet I do think an apology for these particular comments is in order.

However... telling a horribly distasteful joke does not equal a hatred of women. You have to make a dozen assumptions to go from the one to the other.

And it's the Bible that defines what sin is. Not our culture. At most, a case could be made that White and Pierce's comments violated the command to "love your neighbor as yourself," but that can be a pretty open criteria for some people. It's God's law that tells us what it means to "love your neighbor," not our personal feelings.

The opening introduction to White's "Dividing Line" program contains these words: "the Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence."

This is definitely an example of where the program missed that mark. It does not, however, disqualify White from being capable of performing public ministry.

Yes, we live in a culture where many, if not most, employers have policies where such comments in the workplace would be worthy of termination. This is due to our changing cultural values, not a reflection Biblical mandates.

Some of White's most loyal supporters will stop at nothing to defend him and his comments and many of White's most vocal critics will stop at nothing to paint White in the worst possible light. The reality is that James White is neither an angel or a devil. He's a man perfectly capable of stumbling like any other.

I would love to hear James White and Rich Pierce issue an apology for the comments they made that were in poor taste. But to define those comments as "sinful" goes beyond the Biblical definition of sin. What he did was to "sin" against the culture and he showed poor judgement in doing so.

[Mary]

My husband (who has a real doctorate and never demands anyone call him Dr) just read this and said; "The problem with Jimmy's "path" is it led to a fake doctorate."

He still cracks me up! The hubby and JW.

[David B. Hewitt]

Wow.

Ladies and gentlemen, I debated whether I should even comment in this thread, seeing that it is well known that I consider myself a friend of Dr. White, that I support A&O ministries, and have defended Dr. White here in these threads before. I suspect that people will, upon seeing my name here again, will do little more than continue with the theme of White's doctorates, or any number of other things and not address what I'll say, but in spite of that possibility, I continue.

I first wish to state that I am much more interested in holiness than I am in winning an argument. I wish to see Christ manifest in His church, local and universal, and His glory is seen much more clearly when His people conduct themselves in righteousness.

Let's say for a moment that I were to grant that Dr. White's comments on the DL regarding Brigham Young's wives were not appropriate, just for the sake of argument. What ought my response to such statements be, especially if I believed him to be sinning with his words?

My first thought would be to pray for him, ask that God grant him repentance, and ask others to pray for him. Given that God has used him in the past (especially with regard to defending and proclaiming core Christian doctrines such as Justification and the Trinity), I would trust that God would turn him around and keep His Name from being slandered.

When I read through this thread, I must admit, I saw very little mentioning prayer for him, when one would think it would have been much more prominent. Rather, I saw things such as these:

1. Dr. White's ministry (which is an international apologetics ministry), was insulted, saying Dr. White was a "basement theologian."

2. Those who follow his ministry are called "whiteheads" which is certainly not a compliment, especially since a real whitehead is, in my opinion, more than a little gross.

3. People suggest that Dr. White is a hateful and "vile man" who have never met him, never observed his life, never been to his church.

4. Someone flatly said, "The man is a moron."

5. He, a man who is an elder and thus pastor of a Reformed Baptist church in Phoenix, is said to be a cult leader.

6. The author of the post again refers to Dr. White as a hyper-Calvinist, though he seems to be unwilling to say that David Engelsma is one. David Engelsma denies common grace, which James White affirms.

I am persuaded that Proverbs 18:13 is a verse that is realized quite frequently in the blogosphere. I keep is on the wall over my monitor:

"If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame." (ESV)

Making the kind of claims people do without having gathered all the appropriate information brings one under the condemnation of this verse.

One might also ask if the term "Whiteheads" is beneficial or good:

Ephesians 4:29 HCSB No rotten talk should come from your mouth, but only what is good for the building up of someone in need, in order to give grace to those who hear.

One must also question the rightness of calling anyone a moron:

Matthew 5:22 HCSB But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Fool!' will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, 'You moron!' will be subject to hellfire.

Further, all of us should examine ourselves in the light of the following before we say anything:

Matthew 7:3-5 HCSB Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye but don't notice the log in your own eye? (4) Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and look, there's a log in your eye? (5) Hypocrite! First take the log out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Typing on the internet in a blog or a comments box is a modern version of using our tongues, you might say (see James 3). The fingers can indeed do a lot of damage, and we would be wise to cry out to God for His grace and mercy and guidance ourselves before putting fingers to keyboard. Such is surely good and God-honoring practice.

May God guide His Church into righteousness.

sdg,
dbh