« James White and The Qu'rrrrran by Peter Lumpkins | Main | Alexander the Coppersmith Strikes Again: A Brief Rejoinder to James White (Part I) by Peter Lumpkins »

Jun 05, 2010

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83451a37369e20134835f7c5a970c

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference James White, Scholarship, and Insulting Ergun Caner (Part II) by Peter Lumpkins:

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

RazorsKiss

"And, the official word is, James White will not be offered any future contract as adjunct instructor to teach any subject for Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary including Islam."

Where can this official press release be found, Peter?

michael

Peter,

as you are, are you going to allow anyone to make comments about this tread and what is troubling about it or are you only going to allow comments that heap profuse praise for your outstanding intellect and acumen?

Ron Hale

Peter,
Just as Calvin requested that Servetus be put to death by decaptiation, that same spirit seems to live on among certain Reformed leaders that would join forces with Muslim Jidadists in a relentless quest to bring down Dr. Caner. Sad! What is the real motive -- I ask myself. I don't know, my mind doesn't work that way. Thanks for your investigation!

selahV

Peter,

You know, my friend, that I love you, no matter what. You know I will be loyal to you come what may. And you know that at times I've questioned where in the world you are headed with a particular blog series, only to find myself fully informed at the end of such series. Most times I find no need to comment and add to a mountain created by a bunch of moles furrowing ground higher and higher by each mole climbing on top of one another to create another mountain. Neither am I tempted to stomp up and down and rant and rave because you don't blog on your own blog what I get giddy and gooey about.

I realize, now, the import of why you've chosen to blog so thoroughly about the subject matter you have most recently. Such duplicity is visible in the actions and words of some that I wonder why they even dare to criticize another. Yet, I am a bit confused. Is this what apologetics is?

I must say, however, I am pleasantly pleased you might blog about something other than the subject of which you've lately been compelled to address. Why? Because you have so much wisdom and are so capable of addressing so many of the theological questions, and doctrinal systems that flutter through my mind. And while sometimes I find your responses to your "dissenters" quite valuable in addressing dysfunctional minds I encounter in life, (indeed, sometimes I chuckle when I shouldn't and must "rrr-repent" from sticking my toes in your comment streams), I miss Socrates and his kindred spirit. just saying...selahV

peter

SelahV,

I hear you and know I thank you.

I too miss Socrates.

My brittle replies undoubtedly are indicative of the polemical spirit slowly cooked on flaming conflict--albeit cyber-conflict but conflict nonetheless--leaving but a crispy, burnt crust behind.

Only the Lord's Spirit may scrape such from one's inner sanctuary. Please pray for me.

With that, I am...
Peter

peter

Michael,

As for me, I think the profuse praise for my outstanding intellect and acumen fits this thread perfectly.

With that, I am...
Peter

Eric Opsahl

Don,
Guess you caught on to my free plug for reformed doctrine :) I got a smile out of your response.
I would think the majority of reformed folks would challenge Elder White when he is wrong. That is, those in his circle who have contact with him. Just as my circle of friends correct me when needed. I would like to see "brotherly Love" in action between Elder White and pastor Lumpkin. This apparent "hatred" between the two of them, should stop today. I use the word "hatred" because there does not seem to be an outward Brotherly love relationship between them. I am utterly clueless why the two of them don't get on the phone, restore brotherly love, and publically show how two brothers can be on extreme opposite ends of the spectrum, argue their case passionately, yet do it with respect and love. How hard can a phone call be.
I suppose Elder White reads this Blog, he does respond to it on his Blog. He doesn't allow comments, so I'm directing this to him as well. It can't be said any stronger than this. Does God's Word allow you two to carry on this fight? Does God's Word call you to love one another? If you are not willing to TRY and restore fellowship, do you have the right to enter the pulpit again?
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. Ro 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 2 ¶ With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Pressing on
Eric

peter

Eric,

Two things. First, I am not a pastor--at least not now. I served mostly as pastor from 1981 to 2002. Since then, while I've served Interim pastoral positions, I have not served as "full-time" pastor though I've stayed busy doing ministry.

Second, I do not agree with your assessment that the issues I've raised, particularly with James White, constitute "hatred" apparent or otherwise. You ask, "Does God's Word allow you two to carry on this fight?" Speaking for myself, yes it does. It calls me to speak honestly and forthrightly concerning justice on the one hand and mercy on the other. It calls me to embrace what is good. It calls me to stand for what I believe to be the true and the real even if I stand alone. And even if I stand alone on the opposite side of one brother or many.

You query again, "Does God's Word call you to love one another?" Speaking for me, it most certainly does. And, in this case, when I strongly oppose another's actions or positions, loving the other necessarily includes I attempt to fairly criticize my opponent's words, attempt to stick to the topic at hand, and, as much as possible, concede ground which either proves faulty or irrelevant.

On the other hand, loving another may or may not mean having a phone conversation.

Would to our Lord conflict were as simplistic as I sense you portray it, Eric.

With that, I am...
Peter

Don Johnson

Eric,

I'm glad you got a smile.

I disagree about Mr. White's followers ever challenging him. To them he is always correct even when they know he is not.

I believe Mr. White over the years has done alot of good. Of note his debates with Catholics. Particularly Gerry Matatics. He probably means nothing to you, but I knew Gerry long before he became a Catholic. I would cheer for Mr. White in those debates.

My biggest problem with Mr. White is his treatment of those who are not of the Reformed persuasion. I can site several instances. He gives much more respect to atheists, Mormons or Muslims than to the non-Calvinist. Despite his claims not every non-Calvinist is afraid to debate him.

I'm in complete agreement with you on your stated verses.

Don

michael

Peter,

in response to Eric above you said this: "... attempt to stick to the topic at hand, and, as much as possible, concede ground which either proves faulty or irrelevant.".

Ok, I have something troubling me about this particular thread.

The title of it is as we can all read above: "James White, Scholarship, and Insulting Ergun Caner (Part II) by Peter Lumpkins".

Yet, when I read through the whole article, my take on what I read is not an issue between Dr. White and Dr. Caner, but rather you expressing that you have something bugging you about Dr. White, an unresolved inner conflict that you are struggling with and you have taken the Ergun Caner issue as the "spring" board so you can vent your personal unresolved conflict against Dr. White to us?

Why is that?

Why just after: "Allow me to repeat a lengthy quote from James White:..." the rest of the article shifts to issues you personally have with Dr. White?

That appears to me to come across as a departure from the initial title of this thread to your own personal unresolved issues you have between you and Dr. White?

Granted, I do not deny that Dr. White, in the update link provided, takes up issues against you.

Why should be "prove faulty or irrelevant" when your initial issue was not?

I believe it is of poor taste for you to combine the two matters together. But, as you have said, forcefully and sharply at times, this is your nickel and you can do as you please!

I don't think it very modest of you to do this.

peter

Michael,

I've given you a fair amount of space to continue on about me personally. And, yes, this is my nickel but more often than not, I do not "do as I please" so to speak. Nor am I concerned you think I'm being modest or not.

What does concern me is for you or anyone else to attempt to second guess the inner life of someone else, especially if you offer not a single shred of something tangible to substantiate it.

For example, you attempt to read a "inner conflict" I allegedly have with White and imply I'm exploiting Ergun Caner as a cover to express it. For me that is despicable and highly offensive. Please don't say this here again.

Now, if you've got something tangible you'd care to ask me about, great. Perhaps I would entertain it.

On the other hand, if all you have is "your take" I'm venting "personal unresolved conflict" when you cannot specifically offer a hard example, keep your psychological theories to yourself, not only toward me, but toward anyone else on this thread.

I gave specific examples, quoted words, and interpreted actions of both White & the Caners in the OP. If I have drawn unwarranted conclusions in any part of what I wrote, please point it out. If you are uninterested in dealing with what I actually wrote, however, instead of attempting to analyse me psychologically, I really see no need in any exchange at all.

I trust your evening well.

With that, I am...
Peter

Dr. Cary Voss

Peter, 

Have you ever watched or listened to a debate of Dr. Whites? Have you listened to the last several episodes of the Dividing Line where James has been discussing the arguments of Sheik Awal, an upcoming Muslim debate opponent, from Awal's previous debates? Have you "listened" to the "substance" of James White's apologetic claims in action in debates or on Youtube?

I have for 4 years. I have a PhD (1998) in Communication Studies from the University of Kansas, with a focus in argumentation and debate. I have also coached two Baylor University debate teams to national championships in 1987 and 1989. James White is in my opinion the best Christian apologist debater I have heard, irrespective of his degrees, and I have listened to countless debates. 

I have tried to listen to or watch any debates by Ergun Caner, but I can't seem to find any available for download or purchase. But I have been thinking of buying one of Dr. Caner's T-shirts he has for sale on his website? Will he make a debate audio with a Muslim or Hindu available if I buy a T-shirt?

Dr. Cary Voss
Debate Expert 

peter

Dr. Voss,

Welcome.  And, know I appreciate your lending the weight of your expertise here.

To answer your questions:

a) yes, I have listened to both White's debates and DL broadcasts, though no, not the ones you specifically cite (arguments of Sheik Awal)

b) yes, I do take note of substance when I have listened to debates

As for your learned estimation that James White is the best Christian apologist debater you've have heard, I thank you for your assessment and have not a single reservation to add...for two reasons:

a) I am not an expert in debate communication and hence my estimation, while not completely irrelevant, should not be comparable contra an expert like yourself

b) I have no reason at all to doubt, at least initially, what you say is so; i.e., James White is the best Christian apologist debater you've heard

Now, as for Ergun Caner, since you've not heard him debate, perhaps its best not to make further judgments about him or his "missing" debates.  Agreed?

Hence, since I answered your questions and do not disagree with your estimations, hopefully those issues will not need to be revisited. If you find me contradicting my answers above, please feel free to remind me what I conceded.

Now that that’s settled, Dr. Voss, if you have a moment, I would like to pick your brain about a matter you're definitively qualified to consider.  I just posted, from James White's latest "response" to me, a veritable list of descriptive phrases through which I must filter my understanding so I can offer to Mr. White a rejoinder.

Allow me, for illustrative purposes, to post a partial list for you:

  • utter irrational
  • anti-Reformed
  • irascible
  • never deal fairly with facts
  • never deal fairly with documentation
  • lacks honesty and integrity
  • goals are not honorable or proper
  • never discuss facts
  • personal attack is modus operandi
  • a politico without honesty or integrity
  • utter disregard for honesty in false attacks
  • unrepentant in irrationality,
  • astounding perversity of thinking
  • concern is political power and control, nothing more
  • shallow and fallacious in argumentation
  • twists facts and acts brave behind a keyboard
  • takes bits and pieces out of videos and makes absurd arguments based upon a biased, prejudiced hearing of what is said
  • irrationality of  arguments are clear to all who are willing to think honestly
  • has no capacity or ability to comment on the actual substance
  • actual purposes and context of original statements are irrelevant
  • mind-set is amazing to behold
  • have absolutely nothing to show for themselves in fields of ministry under discussion
  • life-blood is political, not theological,
  • life-blood is power-based, not servant-based

A full listing may be found here.  The list above is, as I said, only a partial listing.  Nor are those I listed above the most negative from the entire list, but exist only as representative of a larger body of similar descriptions with which Mr. White has, shall we say, assessed me.

Now for the question(s), Dr. Voss:  as an expert in the field of debate, and given your experience as a debate coach—and a very successful one at that—what do you tell your debate students when they are faced with an opponent’s response laced in and out with similar phrases to the above?  Is there a literary category to which you’d assign a debater’s usage of the above phrases?  Based on your professional opinion as a debate expert, would you say a debater who employs the language (or similar) above qualifies as a debater in the top rank of his or her profession? 

Thank you for considering this little exercise.  Also, you’re more than welcome to leave response at the link I offered above.

With that, I am…

Peter   

Dr. Cary Voss

Peter,

Thank you for posting my comment. I will write a longer reply to your questions about Dr. Whites "ad hominem" arguments against you when not using my iPhone.

But for the record, his attempts to discern your motives is bad argumentation and lacks objective support. I also think labeling you Alexander the Coppersmith was simply wrong. And because I believe James is intellectually honest and responsible before God for every idle word, he will eventually agree that many of his charactures of you and others are driven by emotion rather than reason.

More on the other thread,

DrV

The comments to this entry are closed.