The SBC Pastors' Conference: Nominations Begin by Peter Lumpkins

Well, the nominations just started for president of the Southern Baptist Convention Pastor's Conference.  Off the line first--Troy Gramling, lead pastor of Flamingo Road Church in Cooper City Florida (//link)... .

According to the Florida Baptist Witness, John Cross, pastor of South Biscayne Church in North Port, and president of the Florida Baptist Convention, announced March 18 (yesterday) he intends to nominate Gramling to be president (//link).

Unfortunately, from my perspective, Troy Gramling’s nomination, if successful, may represent the quintessential dissolution of the Southern Baptist Convention.

I propose two reasons.

First, according to the Florida Witness, Flamingo Road Church which Gramling leads gave a disgraceful 0.18% to the Cooperative Program of the Southern Baptist Convention. In raw numbers, that breaks down to $12,500 from a $6,800,000 (undesignated gifts).

In addition, Gramling’s church reported total missions as $518,000, with $10,000 for associational giving.  Yet, no additional gifts were reported for either the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering for International Missions or the Annie Armstrong Easter Offering for North American Missions. That means, Flamingo Road channeled the remaining half million to missions outside the Southern Baptist Convention.

Let me be clear:  I have never, ever insisted on quotas.  Period.  The Cooperative Program is intrinsically interwoven together through voluntary participation. Indeed cooperative giving can only work among autonomous congregations if voluntarism remains in tact.

On the other hand, to nominate a pastor to a national platform among Southern Baptists, as John Cross is about to do, a nominee who gave a miserly amount to our cooperative missions (0.18%), is absolutely unacceptable.  I do not care if Gramling’s church runs 50,000 on 50 campuses. There comes a time when we must say, No! This is not a good idea for us. 

For whatever service Gramling is being used for Kingdom work, he possesses little connection to the thousands of pastors who attend the SBC pastor’s conference, pastors whose churches are, for the overwhelming part, supportive of cooperative missions. I dare say no one is dense enough to pretend 0.18% is acceptable to be a national leader of the SBC.

Even more frightening, is what the Florida Baptist Witness did not report.  Flamingo Road Church has women pastors.  Yes, I said, pastor.  I did not say minister; I did not say director; I did not say supervisor.  I said pastor…women pastors…women pastors who preach.  Don’t believe me? 

May I introduce Pastor Heather Palacios, Flamingo Road Church*:

EVIDENTLY THE VIDEO HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM THE PUBLIC AND PLACED ON A PRIVATE CHANNEL (Well, now it's back up again)

Lemonade, Martinis and Coffee -Essence 2 from Flamingo Road Church on Vimeo.

In light of the sermon above apparently being placed on a private channel, you may download the mp3 version and listen by clicking the link below:

Download Sermon061409ENG.mp3 (17143.6K)

Southern Baptists generally and Georgia Baptists particularly owe Dr.  Julie Pennington-Russell, Pastor, First Baptist Church, Decatur Georgia a big round of apologies if we elect Troy Gramling as president of the SBC Pastor’s Conference (//link). 

I do not know where Southern Baptists are going.  However, some appear to be doing everything they can to make sure that wherever we do end up, we will have ceased to be the Southern Baptist Convention. 

With that, I am…

Peter

UPDATE: some have suggested that Troy Gramling has little, if any, opportunity to win a ballot as the president of the SBC Pastors' Conference.  To the contrary, Gramling is apparently not only very close friends with Cross--Florida Baptist Convention's President--which makes him a 'favorite' in his home state where the election will be held, but Gramling also serves on the “Imagine If … Great Commission Task Force,” Florida's version of the national GCRTF (// link).  Hence, Cross did not announce his nominee for naught.

*nor is it acceptable to argue Gramling is the "Senior Pastor" while Palacious is a pastor "under his authority."  Gramling has made this clear (//link)  

UPDATE:  There's another video below.  I laughed.  A lot.  Am still laughing...  This is our 1st candidate for the SBC Pastor's Conference.  We surely have come a long way from 1979...

WELL, THIS VIDEO APPARENTLY HAS BEEN TAKEN DOWN LIKE THE ONE ABOVE (but restored).  WHY OUR FLORIDA BROTHERS ARE SO CONCERNED ABOUT SOMEONE SEEING THEIR CANDIDATE IS CONFUSING.  WILL HE BE DRESSED IN COAT & TIE FOR THE NOMINATION?

I'm wondering out loud if John Cross, President of the Florida Baptist Convention, will stand before the assembled messengers in Orlando, Fl during  the pre-convention conference and say:

"Today, I am honored to nominate Troy Gramling, The Naked Pastor at Flamingo Road Church as president of the Southern Baptist Convention Pastor's Conference. Troy has served as naked pastor since 2002.

In fact, under Troy's leadership as naked pastor, the church has grown exponentially. People come from Florida over to see the exciting things Troy accomplishes as the naked pastor. FRC has been voted one of the most creative congregations in America as a result of the naked pastor's vision.

If Troy is elected as president of the SBC pastor's conference, his leadership as the naked pastor will ignite a wave of creativity among all the churches in the SBC. His communicating skills will inspire a new wave of naked pastors everywhere!

Therefore, I enthusiastically nominate Troy Gramling, Naked Pastor, Flamingo Road Church as president of the 2011 Southern Baptist Convention Pastor's Conference."

One's got to have a sense of humor these days...

Comments

[peter]

Kevin,

Thanks for logging one of the few dissenting comments, arguing in another direction for Troy Gramling. Unfortunately, none of your concerns actually addressed the issues I raised.

Moreover, to suggest either I or others dismiss even a single lost soul coming to Christ is entirely unfair. Indeed I rejoice over any soul who comes to Christ no matter the affiliation--Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, and yes even within a Catholic communion in spite of Rome's insurmountable theological deficiencies. How could I not rejoice? On the other hand, how could I allow that to weigh-in whether or not I formally accept any of the other communities into ecclesial relationship?

Hence, this issue is not about successful evangelism, but a proven method of doing successful evangelism--The Cooperative Program. I have no beef with Troy Gramling doing evangelism another way. What is completely unacceptable is, for us to make him the representative of an entire convention of churches whose proven way is not his way.

And, since you didn't bring up the theological issue--egalitarianism--neither shall I.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Kevin Murray]

Sad that is a word that describes all of this. Sad that people could be more concerned about a convention than a conversion. I agree Flamingo could have given more money to the convention but what about the hundreds of folks that have come to know Christ as their Savior. I don't hear anyone talking about that, isn't that really what the Southern Baptist Convention was formed to help do? Yes there are much smaller churches that gave more money, how about the churches that didn't Baptize one person. Sounds to me like you would rather nominate a pastor who baptizes nobody yet gives 10 percent of the church budget. If that's the case your right Troy is not the right choice. I don't agree with everything Troy does myself, but then again I don't agree with everything the Southern Baptist Convention does either, but that hasn't stopped me from leading the church I pastor to support the convention through cooperative program giving. My advice to you Troy, keep leading people to Jesus and doing so in creative ways. (a parable was considered creative in Jesus day)

Kevin

[Wigley]

SORRY JACOB

We all wish it were as simple as your bio huh ... ?

"I Suck, Jesus Saved Me. That's all that matters." - @jacobhall86

Money Matter$

[Jacob Hall]

Wigley,

Typing in all caps is middle-schoolish, tone it down a notch.

And yes, you are absolutely correct, if you don't give to the CP, you don't have a seat at the table. Atleast not the SBC CP funded table. Kind of like how you don't get a seat at the table of Red Cross without giving, or any other organization. It is not uncommon, or unfair, to require those who want to participate in the work of the convention at a directional level to show their commitment financially.

[Mark]

William, did you see my first questions?

-What do you think would happen if all churches in the SBC reduced their CP giving to .18%? Tell me, would the SBC still exist? How about the Baptist state conventions?-

The SBC under those conditions would not exist as we know it today or maybe at all.

The cash flow as I understand it is like this: local churches -> State Conventions -> SBC -> funds distributed to various entities according to the decided upon allocation.

The question for me is - why would someone want to have a leadership position in an organization that they essentially don't otherwise support?

[William]

I need some help in understanding how the SBC Cooperative Program determines where funds come from, vs where they go? How does the CP decide who pays into the program, and who receives from the program?

Would a region with 5.4+ million people, from every corner of the world, that is over 93% UNCHURCHED; qualify as a region in need of support from the CP?

The bottom line – people around the world hear the gospel and receive Christ. -SBC EC website-

If we are to be missionaries, we must see every pocket of lostness, and design appropriate strategies for each. -NAMB website-

What does the NAMB website mean by "...see every pocket of lostness, and design appropriate strategies for each."?

How do we measure success in reaching people for Christ in such a challenging environment?

[William]

Mark, you state:"I think some folks don't understand how and why the SBC exists." I guess I may be 'some folks'. Please share, in a way 'some folks' may understand, how and why the SBC exists?

[Don]

Peter, Thank you so much for posting this. When I read this nomination I was amazed. I have known John Cross to be pretty solid (or so I thought), but this is totally unacceptable. Flamingo Road church is not an example I desire to follow, Gramling is not an example I personally wish to follow, and I hope we have some good solid candidates arise. I wondered aloud, "Have we come to this???" This goes to what I have been saying for years, we make a hero out of anybody who baptizes alot of people. I am with you, this could spell the end of the SBC, or be a clear sign of the end. Between this and Calvinism, I see the two extremes tearing us apart.

[peter lumpkins]

Robert,

Thanks my brother for the heads up.

Peace.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Robert I Masters]

Peter,
XMl podcast of her preaching is still downloadable and available at my link above.

Gramling introduces here in those two podcasts of her preaching last Christmas.

Robert I Masters

BTW-----I have the previous video and others.....local.
she does not shy away from the title pastor.

[peter lumpkins]

All,

It looks as if the Video where Gramling introduces "Pastor Heather" several times has been taken down from public view.

With that, I am...
Peter

[Rick]

William,

Thanks for writing: "I don't have a litmus test, ie, the SBC president's church should give no less than the average SBC percentage to the CP. We would not have had the Conservative Resurgence were that the rule followed."

Very thought provoking. The CR leaders we all admire for correcting our theological course apparently shared a glaring weakness, namely, inadequate Cooperative Program missions support.

Fast forward to the current missions funding crisis. Could it be that while leaving us a very strong theological legacy, these leaders also left us with a very weak CP missions support legacy? If we keep the former and lose the latter will we not become both conservative and cooperative?

We keep looking for a Great Commission Resurgence but what if all along it has been hiding right there in strong Cooperative Program support?

[cb scott]

Wigley,

You don't know that Cross has baptized more than all the churches represented here. You don't know that at all.

Some may be bitter, but not all. Some are just sorry that the gospel is cheapened. If you want to talk about a tainted gospel listen to the sermons coming from Flamingo Road.

[Mark]

Wigley, what do you think would happen if all churches in the SBC reduced their CP giving to .18%? Tell me, would the SBC still exist? How about the Baptist state conventions?

I think some folks don't understand how and why the SBC exists.

[Robert I Masters]

Wigley,
Interesting that you would bring up the financial facts,
I think most would consider the women pastors the real issue and the convention has spoken on that issue loud and clear.
BTW-I not familiar with any declining denomination.....my local is growing well whilst also preaching and teaching the Gospel; not therapeutic pablum.

Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva

[Wigley]

there's Some nice bitter blogging going on here huh ? I did not know you had to PAY YOUR WAY to these things via the CP--no wonder SBC is a declining denomination .. no money , no seat at the table huh? Lets keep the same ol' and do the same ol' .. it'll keep us in the same ol' direction.DECLINE! Thats whats truly Sad. I dont know Pr. Gramling or his church ... but based on John Cross' nomination I know that he has baptized more than all the churches represented here. Thats sad.. that we would post these things and attach SBC to it for the world to see and for my kids to one day pull up and research. We're sad bitter pastors & leaders who refuse to engage in a lost and dying world and instead taint the gospel with our silly discussions.

Wigley

[Mark]

I think the GCTF being spoken of is the that the Florida state Convention is putting together. It's called the "Imagine If Great Commission Task Force" and has 31 people. I think this is bigger than the national GCTF. It seems like there are some influential people on this TF and I wonder if they will speak out.

[Dan]

Pastor Heather Palacio on Wonder Woman: "I wore her on my t-shirt so you get to stare at her the whole time I'm talking." Uh...

http://www.vimeo.com/6836210

[volfan007]

CB,

I didnt know that. He's on the GCTF. Good grief, is this where we're heading with all of this "hip, cool, evangelical ecumenism" stuff that's going on right now?

We're in trouble.

David

[William Thornton]

In Wright's case, 3.5% (though I saw that the actual figure was 4.4% for 2009) coupled with strong direct giving to IMB and NAMB is above my threshold. Dollars pay bills, not percentages, as Adrian said years ago.

I don't have a litmus test, ie, the SBC president's church should give no less than the average SBC percentage to the CP. We would not have had the Conservative Resurgence were that the rule followed.

Ronnie Floyd with 0.29% was way below the threshold. Gramling with 0.18% is barely a Southern Baptist, seems to me. Wright is a very strong Southern Baptist who heavily supports all the SBC work.

[Robert I Masters]

Peter,
Some more xml of Pastor Heather Palacio preachering.

video and audio

http://flamingoroad.org/FRCPodC/FRCPodcast.xml

Robert I Masters

[cb scott]

Vol,

Is not the guy who intends to nominate this fellow on the GCRTF?

[volfan007]

Well, have you heard that this Church was the first Church to have a baptism onliine????? I'm not kidding. Here's the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qThUe1-RvXU

Sad...very, very sad.

David

[Rick]

William,

Just a factual issue regarding Bryant Wright's church. You mentioned their 5% CP giving as within your threshold, but I believe after reducing it from 10% to 5% they later reduced it even further from 5% to 3.5%. Is the 3.5% even below your threshold?

Let's take the GCRTF at their word and say that the Cooperative Program is indeed to be celebrated as the primary missions support channel in the SBC. If our "average" church gives 6.6%, do we really want to elect as leaders those who lead their own churches to support our primary missions channel at a "below average" level? Should we celebrate "below average" missions support or "above average" missions support? The grace giving above and beyond CP is not the point, since that is, at best, our "secondary" missions channel.

As for my vote, it will be reserved for a leader whose church demonstrates a level of missions support, through our primary Cooperative Program channel, that can at least be described as "above average" when compared with other leaders. For that matter, I hope to elect someone who is above average in other areas as well: preaching, leading, integrity, etc. I have no reservations concerning Bryant Wright's other qualifications, only the missionary support of our primary channel.

[The Seeking Disciple]

I fear that should the SBC nominate an "emergent" feel guy, the SBC could be moving back toward another fight like we saw in the late 1980's with the moderates versus the conservatives over the Bible. The emergent movement is gaining ground in the SBC and that is a frightful thought.

[cb scott]

"- It is sad that there will be many Southern Baptists who see this nomination as a good thing."

And Joe, they are legion. This particular flock of Wild Geese are far more dangerous than were the Old breed of liberals before the days of the CR.

[joe white]

Peter,

One word came to my mind as I read this article... SAD!

- It is sad that in the year of the GCRTF report, a man is to be nominated for President of the SBC Pastor's Conference that has the 3 stated goals of (1) More Campuses, (2) More Attendees, and (3) More Money. I am glad that early church leaders baptized converts and started churches; instead of just staying in Jerusalem and adding campuses and increasing their budget.

- It is sad that last year several churches in our area with under 100 members (and half of them on fixed incomes) gave more than Flamingo Road to the CP.

- It is sad that a man is being nominated whose church should not even be in friendly cooperation with the SBC.

- It is sad that there will be many Southern Baptists who see this nomination as a good thing.

Please Lord, wake us up before it is too late!

[William]

Bryant Wright's church gives 5% to the CP and hundreds of thousands directly to the IMB and NAMB. He is above my threshold for SBC leadership.

Gramling, at an infintesimal 0.18% is below my threshold for even the pastor's conf. and he eclipses Ronnie Floyd whose 0.29% in 2006 helped to sink his presidential candidacy.

Whatever the CP problems, 0.18% is pathetic for a candidate for any SBC position.

[cb scott]

Rick,

My point is that this candidate is not qualified no matter what he gives or does not give. I was actually using hyperbole to illustrate a point.

Did you listen to the woman's sermon? Even if a man preached that sermon, it was of the poorest type of what passes for preaching today. It was not the gospel. it was not of the counsel of God. It was not biblical preaching. Did you hear the concept of repentance? No. Yet, you did hear sin made light of and semi-glorified.

The pastor permitted this. Obviously this is a common serving for what passes as preaching in that church. He calls himself the 'naked" pastor. This is an appeal to people to come hear him because of their carnal minds. Why is not the biblical call Jesus used in Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the gospel" not sufficient to call people to a hearing of the gospel? Why is a call that appeals to the baser elements of human nature necessary?

This nomination is sad. This nomination is wrong. And if Southern Baptists affirm this nomination, the SBC is in a sad state of being. The SBC will be wrong.

[Rick]

CB,
How about "money is only PART of the issue?" What if the woman pastor issue did not exist? Does .18% Cooperative Program giving really qualify one for leadership of an organization dependent on this type of cooperation to support its ministries? Anyway, concerning the spiritual stewardship issue, the idea is not that 90% CP giving would QUALIFY someone, it is that .18% CP giving should DISQUALIFY someone.

[Robert I Masters]

Dr Lumpkins!!!!!

Let it be known that even in The Southern Baptist Geneva we are in 100 percent agreement we you on this one.

Why is this church an SBC church.I would hope someone offers a resolution to the convention in Orlando.They are clearly outside the BFM.

From the SBC Geneva

Robert I Masters

[BDW]

Thanks for this post, Peter. You gave me something to blog about on my Friday night!

It appears that the Executive-Pastor is married to the Rev. Heather Palacios. Sounds like a good co-pastor team, Druid Hills-style.

[cb scott]

The money, in this case, is not the issue. If this guy's church gave 90% to the CP and the rest to the IMB and NAMB he still should not elected.

[Rick]

Did you ever play the game as a young man, "How low can you go?" in which you try to pitch your voice lower than your friends? Everyone seems to say there should exist no threshold or litmus test for CP giving by our leaders, so here are our test cases to find out if that is really true: a President @ 3.5 percent and a Pastor's Conference President @ .18 percent! How low can we go? Churches have autonomy in setting their percentages, but the convention also has autonomy in setting our standards.

[cb scott]

This is a truly sad thing.

[Bob Williford]

Absurd and obviously outside the norm of the SBC that I have always known....apart from Biblical standards in leadership....NAKED????

[chadwick]

The naked pastor could have the sex pastor (UBU) as a back-up nominator!

[Les Puryear]

Peter,

Let me add another voice of agreement to your post.

Bryant Wright decreases his CP giving and he is to be nominated for SBC President. Troy Gramling gives less to CP ($12,500) on overall receipts of $6.8M than my little church of 200 with total receipts of $337.7K who gives $23,859 to CP. My little church gave almost twice as much to CP as Gramling's huge church? And this guy is being presented as a model of leadership in the SBC?

If this is what the GCR "Great Commission giving" is going to come to, then I am going to vote against it. This is ridiculous.

Les

[Jacob Hall]

I am in 100% agreement with you. Isn't having a woman on staff as a pastor an automatic red-flag for the nomination process because it is in contradiction to the BFM2000? His non-giving to the CP aside, isn't a direct contradiction to our Doctrinal statement enough to say "No, you can't be nominated"?

[Mark]

But Peter, don't you want to learn about LeadHerShip? ;)

[Scott Slayton]

Peter, that is what I meant. My problem with him is actually his lack of CP support and his obviously being an egalitarian.

[Tim Rogers]

Brother Peter,

Well, now you have the Calvinist agreeing with you. Man, where are we going? Your position is based on Grambling's lack of support of the SBC and the Calvinist view him as not being a good nominee because he supports the seeker sensitive worship. However, we we end up together, then I applaud the fact we all see this person as not being good for SBC Leadership.

Blessings,
Tim

[Pastor Troy in Florida]

John Cross has gone off the deep end. If like-minded people such as Cross and Gramling take leadership in the SBC, you can kiss it goodbye. And maybe that's what these guys want.

Heartbreaking that we've gone from Rogers, Patterson, Vines, etc. to this group, should he be elected.

[peter]

Scott,

I just did! It's in ink so you can't take it back ;^)
FYI, probably a typo, but I think you meant above
"President of the SBC [pastor's conference]" did you not?

With that, I am...
Peter

[Scott Slayton]

Well Peter, write today down on the calendar because I think that you are 100% right on this one. Electing this guy as President of the SBC would send very confusing signals about where we are headed as a convention.